Education website sued for being pro-evolution

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Education website sued for being pro-evolution

Post by Lord of the Abyss »

Link to story
BERKELEY, Calif. - A California couple has sued the operators of a University of California-Berkeley Web site designed to help teachers teach evolution, claiming it improperly strays into religion.

Jeanne and Larry Caldwell of Granite Bay say portions of the Understanding Evolution Web site amount to a government endorsement of certain religious groups over others because the site is partly funded through a public money grant from the National Science Foundation.

In the lawsuit filed last month, the Caldwells contend the site is an effort "to modify the beliefs of public school science students so they will be more willing to accept evolutionary theory as true."

The plaintiffs are not proponents of "intelligent design" — a theory that living organisms are so complex they must have been created by a higher intelligence — but they object to the teaching of evolution as scientific fact, Jeanne Caldwell said.

The site is run by UC Berkeley's Museum of Paleontology and paid in part by a $400,000 grant from the National Science Foundation. Two university scientists and a foundation official were named as defendants.

An attorney representing the Berkeley scientists said the courts have repeatedly rejected the argument that teaching evolution in itself is teaching a religious idea.
Understanding Evolution Web site

And stupidity marches on !
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Post by General Zod »

How many takers on how long til this gets tosses out of court for being totally frivolous?
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Post by The Guid »

The plaintiffs are not proponents of "intelligent design" — a theory that living organisms are so complex they must have been created by a higher intelligence — but they object to the teaching of evolution as scientific fact
:wtf:

So how do they think we all got here? It wasn't evolution but they're not proponents of Intelligent Design? Unintelligent Design? WTF?
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Post by Lord of the Abyss »

The Guid wrote:
The plaintiffs are not proponents of "intelligent design" — a theory that living organisms are so complex they must have been created by a higher intelligence — but they object to the teaching of evolution as scientific fact
:wtf:

So how do they think we all got here? It wasn't evolution but they're not proponents of Intelligent Design? Unintelligent Design? WTF?
Probably YEC types; we were made from clay/dust/ whatever. :roll:
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Post by Duckie »

Never know, they could be covert Raelians. (What ever happened to those loons and their clone army?)
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Post by Alyeska »

The couple is a bunch of fucking liars. The only grounds to attack evolution is religiously bassed. And the fact that they call evolution a religious belief makes it obvious they are fundies.
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Post by Darth Wong »

What fundies lack in intelligence, they make up for in sheer determination.
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Post by SecondToDie »

I doubt this lawsuit will get very far. IIRC, there was a case where SCOTUS ruled that evolution isn't religion. I think the case involved a schoolteacher who refused to teach evolution because it violated his freedom of religion.
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Post by wolveraptor »

It's a fucking website, can't you say almost anything you want? The only things barred are threats against your national leaders, and crazy stuff like that.
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Post by wilfulton »

Maybe the universe really does NOT exist at all, it's just that every last one of us is crazy. That would at least explain some of these raving lunatics.
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Post by Braedley »

General Zod wrote:How many takers on how long til this gets tosses out of court for being totally frivolous?
$20 on the first day the defendants get to present their case during prelims. Oh shit, defense doesn't have to present during prelims. In that case, the very first day of prelims.
wilfulton wrote:Maybe the universe really does NOT exist at all, it's just that every last one of us is crazy. That would at least explain some of these raving lunatics.
No, one, and only one of us would be crazy. Everyone else wouldn't exist.
Well I know I exist, so the rest of you must be figments of my imagination.
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Post by SpacedTeddyBear »

Yeah this story was in my newspaper today. What MSNBC left out, but was in the newspaper, was that the couple are strong supporters of christianity. :roll: Well not like that bit of info was needed here. It's really unbelievable for these cockbites to claim that christianity is under attack, yet they're the ones who are filing the initial lawsuits.
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Let's face it, they lack everything that requires some form of complex thought.
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Post by SpacedTeddyBear »

Here's the article from my local paper
San Jose Mercury News wrote:Evolution site under fire

COUPLE'S LAWSUIT SAYS UC-BERKELEY WEB SITE FOR TEACHERS INVOLVES RELIGION

By Becky Bartindale and Lisa Krieger

Mercury News

Operators of a University of California-Berkeley Web site that is designed to help teachers teach evolution are being sued by a California couple who say the site improperly strays into religion.

Defendants include two top biologists from the UC Museum of Paleontology, which runs the Understanding Evolution Web site (http://evolution. berkeley.edu) and an official from the National Science Foundation, who is named because the foundation provided more than $400,000 in public funding for the site.

The lawsuit is one of many skirmishes under way across the country over how evolution is taught in the schools. Some anti-evolution efforts are being pressed by proponents of ``intelligent design,'' the idea that living organisms are so complex they must have been created by a higher intelligence.

But the Granite Bay couple who filed the Web site suit, Jeanne Caldwell and her husband, Larry Caldwell, who is representing her in the lawsuit, say they are not proponents of intelligent design. They object to the teaching of evolution as scientific fact.

``Yes, I'm a Christian,'' said Jeanne Caldwell, ``but I would not categorize myself as an ID proponent. I believe God created the world.''

Suit specifics

The suit, which was filed last month, specifically objects to portions of the Understanding Evolution Web site that deal with the interplay of science and religion. For example, it challenges the site's linking to doctrinal statements from a variety of religions to demonstrate that ``most Christian and Jewish religious groups have no conflict with evolution.''

That amounts to a government endorsement of certain religious groups over others, the suit contends, and is an effort ``to modify the beliefs of public school science students so they will be more willing to accept evolutionary theory as true.''

An attorney representing the Berkeley scientists said the lawsuit makes a variation on an argument that courts have repeatedly rejected -- that teaching evolution in itself is teaching a religious idea.

``The courts in many cases have said evolution is a scientific idea and there is no prohibition on the government teaching a scientific idea even if it conflicts'' with some people's religious beliefs, said university counsel Christopher Patti.

Larry Caldwell, who has two children in Roseville schools, also has sued administrators in the Roseville Joint Union High School District in an evolution-related controversy. The suit stems from his efforts -- which he says were frustrated by the district -- to persuade the school board to give students material challenging Charles Darwin's theory of evolution. The Pacific Justice Institute, a Sacramento non-profit that focuses on religious freedom and parental rights, has joined Caldwell in preparing both lawsuits.

``I think we ought to be honest with students about what the scientific data shows about evolution,'' Caldwell said. ``Clearly students need to be taught about theory of evolution.

``But what we say is that it's not that cut and dried from the fossil record. The fossil data leave unanswered questions about large-scale evolution. The record shows us what fossils existed but can't tell us about how they got there.''

Scientists respond that while the fossil record continues to be studied and interpreted, it provides solid evidence of evolution. Beyond the fossil record, research in the past 25 years from molecular biology, genetics, cell biology and embryology have added further evidence for evolution.

The Understanding Evolution site was funded with a National Science Foundation grant awarded in 2001 and it went live in September 2004. The site grew out of a national conference hosted by the Museum of Paleontology in 2000 on teaching evolution, which was increasingly coming under attack. A theme that emerged from the conference was the need for better teaching material.

The site was developed to provide teachers with up-to-date content and lessons and aid them in responding to students' questions, said Judy Scotchmoor, the museum's assistant director of education and public programs and a science teacher for 25 years.

``Teachers wanted access to material that would increase their confidence,'' Scotchmoor said. The lawsuit has struck a strong chord among scientists who supported the site's development.

``It is all part of a climate of hostility toward the teaching of evolution,'' said Glenn Branch, deputy director of the National Center for Science Education, an Oakland-based organization that helped to develop the site.

``Sometimes it is clear and overt,'' such as when lawsuits are filed, he said. ``But often it is more subtle, such as when teachers feel pressure from students or parents to play down, omit or compromise the teaching of evolution.''

Bigger issue

Roy Caldwell, director of the Museum of Paleontology and a professor of integrative biology at UC-Berkeley, sees a larger problem: ``The thing that disturbs me the most is that this is not just an attack on evolution; it's an attack on science.''

Besides Roy Caldwell (who is not related to Jeanne and Larry Caldwell), the suit names as defendants David Lindberg, museum curator and chairman of UC-Berkeley's integrative biology department, and Michael Piburn, program director for the National Science Foundation.

In a national survey of 1,000 teachers last spring, the National Science Teachers Association found that 31 percent of those who responded said they feel pressured to include creationism, intelligent design or other non-scientific alternatives to evolution in their science classroom. Teachers said most of the pressure is coming from students and parents.

That rings true for Kevin Scully, a biology teacher at Pioneer High School in San Jose. Scully, who has recently begun to use the Understanding Evolution Web site, said it ``gives teachers a simple but effective explanation of how evolution works and why we know that evolution does in fact occur. And it's from a reputable source.''

He said some high school biology teachers shy away from teaching evolution ``because teachers don't want to get into the controversy'' or become ``targets.''

``Often a teacher is afraid to accept that students have differing opinions about whether or not evolution occurred,'' Scully said, ``or they are afraid to answer questions.'' What he tells his students about evolution, he said, is ``you don't have to believe it yourself to understand it. Belief is not what we teach at school; what we teach is evidence and accepted hypotheses, theories and laws.''

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Post by Superman »

They're from Granite Bay? That's about 5 miles up the street from me. It's sort of known as the Beverly Hills of Sacramento. Lots of the Sacramento Kings live there.

I really hope Berkeley doesn't back down during any of this.
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Post by Molyneux »

Superman wrote:They're from Granite Bay? That's about 5 miles up the street from me. It's sort of known as the Beverly Hills of Sacramento. Lots of the Sacramento Kings live there.

I really hope Berkeley doesn't back down during any of this.
It's Berkeley. They won't.

I like how they mention that they're not ID proponents...it's old-fashioned creationism all the way for them, yesiree!

I'm betting this stays in the court for a month, at the most, and that's if the judge doesn't get annoyed at this bullshit before then.
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Post by wolveraptor »

I ask again, how the fuck are they supposed to sue someone for exercising free speech? It's their own website, they can say that Jesus sucks cock if they want.
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Post by SCRawl »

wolveraptor wrote:I ask again, how the fuck are they supposed to sue someone for exercising free speech? It's their own website, they can say that Jesus sucks cock if they want.
I think that their contention is that since the site is at least partially funded with government money (the $400k from the National Science Foundation), it isn't just some individual's free speech. And if the website were spouting opinion about religion, they would have a point. Fortunately, the theory of evolution is not considered (by any thinking person) to be a religious subject.

In other words, they don't have a leg to stand on, because their basic premise is flawed, but their right to file a lawsuit and get in the news will not be infringed. As long as lawsuits are relatively cheap and easy in the US, there will be frivolous lawsuits. It's the price you pay for not having a "loser pays" system.
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Post by Ender »

SCRawl wrote:
wolveraptor wrote:I ask again, how the fuck are they supposed to sue someone for exercising free speech? It's their own website, they can say that Jesus sucks cock if they want.
I think that their contention is that since the site is at least partially funded with government money (the $400k from the National Science Foundation), it isn't just some individual's free speech. And if the website were spouting opinion about religion, they would have a point. Fortunately, the theory of evolution is not considered (by any thinking person) to be a religious subject.

In other words, they don't have a leg to stand on, because their basic premise is flawed, but their right to file a lawsuit and get in the news will not be infringed. As long as lawsuits are relatively cheap and easy in the US, there will be frivolous lawsuits. It's the price you pay for not having a "loser pays" system.
I'm pretty sure we can make the loser pay though. Hope that happens.

Really, this is more just symbolic then anything. they have to knwo they won't win, and they have to know Berkly won't let itself get bullied. But they hope to intimidate individual teachers by showing them that putting out information on evolution means someone might try to sue you.
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Post by General Zod »

Ender wrote:I'm pretty sure we can make the loser pay though. Hope that happens.
It's too bad there isn't a loser pays rule in the US. Pity it's not likely to ever be drafted though. It would certainly help cut down on alot of these frivolous anti-science lawsuits.
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Re: Education website sued for being pro-evolution

Post by Darth Servo »

Jeanne and Larry Caldwell of Granite Bay say portions of the Understanding Evolution Web site amount to a government endorsement of certain religious groups over others because the site is partly funded through a public money grant from the National Science Foundation.
:wtf: Since when was the National Science Foundation a religion?
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Re: Education website sued for being pro-evolution

Post by wilfulton »

Darth Servo wrote:
Jeanne and Larry Caldwell of Granite Bay say portions of the Understanding Evolution Web site amount to a government endorsement of certain religious groups over others because the site is partly funded through a public money grant from the National Science Foundation.
:wtf: Since when was the National Science Foundation a religion?
Since yesterday.
:lol:

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Post by Agent Fisher »

Superman wrote:They're from Granite Bay? That's about 5 miles up the street from me. It's sort of known as the Beverly Hills of Sacramento. Lots of the Sacramento Kings live there.

I really hope Berkeley doesn't back down during any of this.

Dude, their sueing my old school district. Seriously, what the hell? Stupid people like this piss me off.
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Post by Jalinth »

SecondToDie wrote:I doubt this lawsuit will get very far. IIRC, there was a case where SCOTUS ruled that evolution isn't religion. I think the case involved a schoolteacher who refused to teach evolution because it violated his freedom of religion.
SCOTUS was just stating the facts. The fact that the Earth isn't the centre of the universe is mildly disturbing to some religions, but guess what, we aren't. :D
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Post by FedRebel »

Operators of a University of California-Berkeley Web site that is designed to help teachers teach evolution are being sued by a California couple who say the site improperly strays into religion.
Well I just got back from 'museum', same old things, sing a couple songs read select verses from 'The origin of Species', that kind of stuff

What's next. Somebody sues a church website for strying into science?
Defendants include two top biologists from the UC Museum of Paleontology, which runs the Understanding Evolution Web site (http://evolution. berkeley.edu) and an official from the National Science Foundation, who is named because the foundation provided more than $400,000 in public funding for the site.
I hope that the judge sentences the couple to assisted living, if they're dumb enough to sue an organization that can throw away hundreds of thousands of dollars to fund a website, they're obviously incapable of supporting themselves
The lawsuit is one of many skirmishes under way across the country over how evolution is taught in the schools. Some anti-evolution efforts are being pressed by proponents of ``intelligent design,'' the idea that living organisms are so complex they must have been created by a higher intelligence.
Well I guess the next crusade is underway
But the Granite Bay couple who filed the Web site suit, Jeanne Caldwell and her husband, Larry Caldwell, who is representing her in the lawsuit, say they are not proponents of intelligent design. They object to the teaching of evolution as scientific fact.
Fundie Christians who don't have a dedicated attorney?

My guess is that UC-Berkeley and the NSF are already planning their victory celebration.
""`Yes, I'm a Christian,'' said Jeanne Caldwell, ``but I would not categorize myself as an ID proponent. I believe God created the world.''
And you thank God every day for your low IQ and suggestibility, don't you?
The suit, which was filed last month, specifically objects to portions of the Understanding Evolution Web site that deal with the interplay of science and religion. For example, it challenges the site's linking to doctrinal statements from a variety of religions to demonstrate that ``most Christian and Jewish religious groups have no conflict with evolution.''
So the site tries to show how evolution is acceptable to the religious minded, the couple disagrees with this view and sues over it.

I think they need to up production on dunce hats


That amounts to a government endorsement of certain religious groups over others, the suit contends, and is an effort ``to modify the beliefs of public school science students so they will be more willing to accept evolutionary theory as true.''
Okay, look it's either softening the blow by trying to show no contradiction with religon or it's the sharp blow of just ignoring religon all together.


Hey, fundies, guess what the beuty of living in the US means?
It means that if you hate how the public schools are doing, you take your kiddies to private schools, and newsflash there are private colleges too.
``The courts in man cases have said evolution is a scientific idea and there is no prohibition on the government teaching a scientific idea even if it conflicts'' with some people's religious beliefs, said university counsel Christopher Patti.
So, sorry all you would be crusaders and inqusitors out there, science is protected
Larry Caldwell, who has two children in Roseville schools, also has sued administrators in the Roseville Joint Union High School District in an evolution-related controversy.
Uh, Larry, doesn't your church offer private schooling, if not for high school, another near by church of the same faith should have a high school.
The suit stems from his efforts -- which he says were frustrated by the district -- to persuade the school board to give students material challenging Charles Darwin's theory of evolution.
School Board: Well let's see...Oops, nothing impartial chalenges evolution

Larry: What about the Bible you heathens!

School Board: Well let's see...well for one, there is a seperation between church and state, we also have students who aren't Christian, but are Jewish, Muslium, Budist, and Hindi, There simply isn't enough time to show all those religious books

Larry: You will burn in Hell heretics!

School Board: Okay then...next order of business, should we change the lunch schedule.
The Pacific Justice Institute, a Sacramento non-profit that focuses on religious freedom and parental rights, has joined Caldwell in preparing both lawsuits.
Great, the fundies have their own 'Justice League'

What the Hell is it about religon that makes people stupid
``I think we ought to be honest with students about what the scientific data shows about evolution,'' Caldwell said. ``Clearly students need to be taught about theory of evolution.
Guess what stupid? We already do
``But what we say is that it's not that cut and dried from the fossil record. The fossil data leave unanswered questions about large-scale evolution. The record shows us what fossils existed but can't tell us about how they got there.''
Well gee, I wonder what the definition of theory is?

From: http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/theory
1 : the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another

3 : the general or abstract principles of a body of fact, a science, or an art

5 : a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena
Scientists respond that while the fossil record continues to be studied and interpreted, it provides solid evidence of evolution. Beyond the fossil record, research in the past 25 years from molecular biology, genetics, cell biology and embryology have added further evidence for evolution.
And oddly enough, no one has gotten anywhere in the department of proving that the biblical view is correct[/quote]
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Post by Darth Raptor »

SCRawl wrote:
wolveraptor wrote:I ask again, how the fuck are they supposed to sue someone for exercising free speech? It's their own website, they can say that Jesus sucks cock if they want.
I think that their contention is that since the site is at least partially funded with government money (the $400k from the National Science Foundation), it isn't just some individual's free speech. And if the website were spouting opinion about religion, they would have a point. Fortunately, the theory of evolution is not considered (by any thinking person) to be a religious subject.
Evolutionary biology is construed to be a religious belief because it makes statements and predictions about the origin of life on Earth- the traditional territory of religion. However, by their logic, history and business ethics are also religious beliefs because they're butting in on the Bible's turf.
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