The Culture vs DBZ

[Yogi]

All right, to summerize.

The Scan: Coming. Actually, I'll scan a whole bunch of other stuff as well. However, the computer lab is closed.

Anime time: Time is takes in the Anime, normally longer tha necessary.
Manga: Goku takes ten seconds to make a Spitit Bomb
Anime: Goku takes the better part of a 24 min episode to make a Spirit Bomb
*Vitirolic rant against Toei deleted*

Ki-en-zan vs. Balefire: Ki-en-zan is also a "trick technique".

Exact Numbers: I beleive I posted something previously on why the scouter readings are consistant with linear progressionof power due to observed effects, for both Goku vs. Vegeta as well as Goku vs. Ginyu

Canon: Toei doesn't care about cannon, and Toriyama hates Dragonball now. "Fan concensus" agrees that the closer it it to Toriyama, the more canon it is. If you want to disagree, please post your own "tree of canoninity"

Buu fighting at FTL over long distances: Buu can fly in space, and can teleport. He uses teleportation to dodge, as well as cover the interveining distances. Remember, it is a known fact that there were 16 galaxies before buu's rampage, and 4 after they finally stopped him. He had SOME way of getting around.

Observed versus Calculated: Here, I think, is the problem. You look at the show, see what they do, and get a qualitative guess out of it. You have presented nothing but qualitative arguments "it doesn't look like the blasts are traveling that fast" "what they toss around doesn't look that powerful" and things like that. I actually sit down and do the math, which turns out to be ludicrously high. So whereas I have "I have calculated that they can do this" you have "it sure doesn't look that way"

Disallow Anime shooting self in foot: You seem to think I observe the Anime with a stopwatch, time their various events, and then punch the information into my calculator. I don't actually do any timing. The speeds I got are based on things like distance from earth to the moon, maximum time it took for the blast to travel, and things like that. I have never taken a stopwacth to the Anime and I don't intend to.

Now, the Six Million Dollar Quetion for Connor
1) We have SEEN that the Z-fighters can nuke planets, moons, etc. That is FACT.
2) You are saying that when they are fighting, they use LESS power than they do, shooting blasts that do NOT have enough energy to destroy moons or planets.
The question is then
1) Why would they do that?
2) If they are all holding back a good chunk of their power, why do they bother training?
3) If they are all holding back a good chunk of their power, whenever a Z-fighter gets overpowered why don't they just un-seal some more of their power, as opposed to getting killed?

[Ghost Rider]

I'm amazed Connor derailed this so much that is no longer can the Z-Warriors do anything but what the hell do they truly do.

I mean does any of this nit-picking at Connor going to matter if you bring it up and he goes is to show that the average Culture war lasts Milliseconds, thus each and evey individual action took less then a googolth of a second, with blasta bale to destroy a Z-Warrior in a puff of smoke?

[Yogi]

I'm amazed Connor derailed this so much that is no longer can the Z-Warriors do anything but what the hell do they truly do.

I mean does any of this nit-picking at Connor going to matter if you bring it up and he goes is to show that the average Culture war lasts Milliseconds, thus each and evey individual action took less then a googolth of a second, with blasta bale to destroy a Z-Warrior in a puff of smoke?

Read my posts fuck face. Tell me when I said DBZ will beat the Culture. Stop fucking putting words in my mouth you lying sack of shit.

[Ghost Rider]

Okay...you still have yet to resolve that any of this will change the outcome of the poll.

So when I asked why does it matter about the calcs.

So stop your bitching and learn that because you can show Goku can move this fast, doesn't change the outcome of THIS battle now does it dumbass?

[Yogi]

Okay...you still have yet to resolve that any of this will change the outcome of the poll.

So when I asked why does it matter about the calcs.

So stop your bitching and learn that because you can show Goku can move this fast, doesn't change the outcome of THIS battle now does it dumbass?

I don't need your all holy permission to defend my points against someone else's attack. Guess what, I don't give a crap about the poll. Also guess what, there's nothing you can do about it? How about that?

[Ghost Rider]

So someone saying I am giving permission, why thank you...

But if you want to rail and scream when you could've just made another topic, called I dunno

DBZ calculations.

It's sorta funny to see you bitch and rave like some irrational git over something that is well within your powers to do.

[Yogi]

Watch me not care.

[Ghost Rider]

Oh such wit and come back...it's has pierce my heart.

[Yogi]

Scans!! Reojice, for it is SCAN TIME!!

First, a demonstration on Radditz's speed being as great as his power
http://www-scf.usc.edu/~chih/Radditz.gif

For those of you wondering where I got the "Radditz flat footed at 5 meters" figure, here is the scan.
http://www-scf.usc.edu/~chih/Makkankosappo.gif

Here's Piccolo destroying the moon. Note that when the shockwave from the moon's destruction hit, Piccolo hasn't even lowered his arm yet!
http://www-scf.usc.edu/~chih/Moon-1.gif
http://www-scf.usc.edu/~chih/Moon-2.gif

Here's Piccolo violating the Conservation of Matter. Physics? What physics?
http://www-scf.usc.edu/~chih/Physics.gif

Piccolo states that they are fighting at Super Speed
http://www-scf.usc.edu/~chih/Speed.gif

Yet the Manga shows events happening in a way we can see
http://www-scf.usc.edu/~chih/Kung_Fu.gif

Beam weapons in Combat, also at Super Speed
http://www-scf.usc.edu/~chih/Beam.gif

Nappa was willig to bet his LIFE that the Kienzan would not harm him, and was enraged when it did. Sounds like the Kienzan is a rare "trick" attack to me.
http://www-scf.usc.edu/~chih/KiEnZan.gif

This is Kaiou Ken giving an insane increase in speed
http://www-scf.usc.edu/~chih/Kaiou-Speed.gif

This is Goku declaring Kaiou Ken x3
http://www-scf.usc.edu/~chih/Kaiou-3.gif

This is the Power Readings from it
http://www-scf.usc.edu/~chih/Kaiou-PL.gif

TEN SECONDS needed for a Genki Dama, not 10 min!
http://www-scf.usc.edu/~chih/TenSeconds.gif
http://www-scf.usc.edu/~chih/Genki.gif

That's all for now!

[Yogi]

Note, since this is unflipped Manga, read from RIGHT to LEFT.

[Yogi]

Now, the proof that Speed increases liniearly with respect to PL at the very minimum.

We'll use a race between four people to illustrate this examples.

#1)Richard Nixon, PL = 0 (He's Dead)
#2)Farmer with Shotgun, PL = 5
#3)Goku pre-training, PL = 416
#4)Goku post-training, PL = 8,000

The objective, see how much ground they can cover in one say

#1)A dead guy covers 0 kilometers
#2)A healthey human should be able to hike 30 kilometers in a day.
#3)Goku traveled a million kilometers in half a year. That's 5,479 kilometers per day.
#4)While Kaiou said that Goku would take tow days to return, he actually made it in one (an in time for the battle). However, since we're giving DBZ the shaft here, let's say two days. That's 500,000 kilomsters per day

So, the (PL,Speed) figures are

#1(0,0)
#2(5,30)
#3(416,5479)
#4(8000,500000)

Now if we take #1 and #2, it would appear that 1 PL = 6 kilometers a day IF the scale was linear. That would mean at 416 PL = 2496 Kilometers per day and 8000 PL = 48000 kilometers per day. Does that happen?

NO! Each time they travel FASTER than calculated!!

However, perhaps the (5,30) point is so small, that random error is inserted. Plus, it is a predicted figure. Let's go with the (416,5479) value, shall we? THAT we KNOW about. That implies that 1 PL = 13.7 kilometers per day. Therefore, 8000 PL should mean 105365 kilometers per day. Is that True?

NO! Once AGAIN they prove FASTER!!!

So, the speed increases at WAY MORE than liniarly with respect to PL, and the fact that I am "only" giving them a liniar increase is giving them the supreme shaft!!

I can taste the sweet sweet taste of victory!



Naga tastes it too, now say it with me.

OH HOHOHOHOHOHOHOHO!!

[consequences]

The Ki en zan does not use a trick, it simply focuses all of the energy that is normally wasted along a two dimensional plane, and can be overcome if the targets defenses are powerful enough.
There is a signifigant distance between moving in a straight line with no obstructions, and high speed combat manuevring.
Power level has also been proven to mean jack shit to speed, the Androids had an observable power level of Zero, and were moving faster than the Z fighters to start with, which means that power level doesn't always strictly relate to speed, and other factors can affect it. Unless you can prove that Power Level is the only thing tha relates to someones speed, you are shit out of luck.

[Yogi]

The Ki en zan does not use a trick, it simply focuses all of the energy that is normally wasted along a two dimensional plane, and can be overcome if the targets defenses are powerful enough.

Actually, the only instances of Keinzans being overcome are in the Anime. However, that still doesn't dispute my point, that Keinzans are not your normal attack. Unless the opponent is throwing specialized 2-d cutting attacks, then there shouldn't be any worry. In fact, your assertion that Keinzans can be blocked by people powerful enough only supports the strength of the DBZ characters.

There is a signifigant distance between moving in a straight line with no obstructions, and high speed combat manuevring.

True. In every recorded instance, cross country travel is significantly slower than combat travel.

Power level has also been proven to mean jack shit to speed, the Androids had an observable power level of Zero, and were moving faster than the Z fighters to start with, which means that power level doesn't always strictly relate to speed, and other factors can affect it.

My my my, where did you get the impression that I equated Power Level to speed? I related POWER to speed, and PL is simply a convinient way to MEASURE that power. If someone has power that cannot be measured, that doesn't mean she still doesn't have power, as Vegeta found out. PL is a unit of measurement, with a scouter being tools to measure it. It's the cart before the horse. PL is not a function of scouters.

Unless you can prove that Power Level is the only thing tha relates to someones speed, you are shit out of luck.

It's not power level, it's simply power. As for the only factor, how does "Nothing else has made an ovservable diffrence." sound to you? Out of ALL the fights in DBZ we've seen, NOTHING ELSE HAS MADE A DIFFRENCE. There is the option of sacrificing speed for power, but only two people have ever done that, and it's a stupid idea so none of the people with brains ever do.

This is a Internet Sci-Fi message board, not a publisher of academic papers. The standard of proof that I have given is WAY beyond the standerd of proof demanded in most threads. I have a preponderance of evidence, which has been historically good enough. Deal with it.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Course, this speed is still useless when you were obliterated by CAM from the next solar system and in another universal plane.

[Evil Sadistic Bastard]

THe only good thing about this thread.

[Admiral Valdemar]

THe only good thing about this thread.

Aye, sehr gut picture. Has an Ayeka sort of feel to it...

[Yogi]

Course, this speed is still useless when you were obliterated by CAM from the next solar system and in another universal plane.

You didn't read the section in which I said that DBZ would defeat the Culture, did you?

Of course, you didn't considering I NEVER MADE THAT STATEMENT.

Take my remarks towards Ghost Rider and apply them towards yourself. Have a nice day.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Course, this speed is still useless when you were obliterated by CAM from the next solar system and in another universal plane.

You didn't read the section in which I said that DBZ would defeat the Culture, did you?

Of course, you didn't considering I NEVER MADE THAT STATEMENT.

Take my remarks towards Ghost Rider and apply them towards yourself. Have a nice day.

Was under the impression this was a Culture Vs. DBZ debate...

[consequences]

My my my, where did you get the impression that I equated Power Level to speed? I related POWER to speed, and PL is simply a convinient way to MEASURE that power. If someone has power that cannot be measured, that doesn't mean she still doesn't have power, as Vegeta found out. PL is a unit of measurement, with a scouter being tools to measure it. It's the cart before the horse. PL is not a function of scouters

Maybe the fact that you listed power levels and then approximate speeds gave me that impression, dipshit.

[SPOOFE]

So, after Yogi goes and posts a dozen scans from a DBZ manga comic which he claims proves that there is some sort of "uber super duper power" in DBZ, and the only solid calc we get is... ten seconds to power up a super attack.

Wow.

In the space of that ten seconds, a single Culture vessel can kill each and every DBZ-er within a thousand lightyears.

You didn't read the section in which I said that DBZ would defeat the Culture, did you?

Of course, you didn't considering I NEVER MADE THAT STATEMENT.

Wow.

This is astonishing.

If you are not claiming that DBZ can beat the Culture, THEN WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING IN THIS THREAD, YOU BRAINDEAD PILE OF FESTERING GOAT SEMEN?!?!? Christ on a crutch, Chucklehead, you just trying to improve your typing skills? Spouting bullshit just to get a better taste in your mouth? Undertaking some ancient art of Tai "I'm a fucking dumbass" Chi?

Here's a hint... when someone asks "DBZ vs. Culture, who wins?" and you say "DBZ," in this little plane of existence called reality that typically means you're taking the side against the Culture. 'Course, I don't know how things go in Yogi-land. Perhaps you'd like to tell us, O Master Of Pointless Unnecessary Windbaggery?

[Yogi]

It's nothing more complex than someone making an incorrect statement about DBZ, and me going to correct them. After all, you can hardly have a debate without knowing the strength of both sides, can you?

[Ghost Rider]

The Culture: destroy worlds Light years away and obliterate them in terms of time most people don't think exist.

DBZ: Buu eventually can destroy a galaxy but is killed by a good-feeling bomb.

Before we go into your calcs vs what is given by the Culture.

1. You have yet to provide any hard proof, as consequences and others are unlikely to accept yours since you have yet to tell us why they supposedly move faster than light, yet SSJ3 Gotenks could not FLY faster than light(even though his power was well above SSJ1 Goku)

2. You have yet to even begin to tackle how the fuck even Buu is going to survive something that can obliterate the entire solar system in a blink of an eye(gridfire).

And all your calcs are still towards this...so you were being a hypocrite when you said to me earlier that this had nothing to do with DBZ vs the culture ya little git?

[Connor MacLeod]

Wow, this is still going on? Should I be coming back to debate, or what?

[Yogi]

Wow, this is still going on? Should I be coming back to debate, or what?

Considering you are the reason I am continuing this, you should. Or you can decide you've had enough and we'll both walk away. Or you can concede (though that seems unlikely).

[Yogi]

1. You have yet to provide any hard proof, as consequences and others are unlikely to accept yours since you have yet to tell us why they supposedly move faster than light, yet SSJ3 Gotenks could not FLY faster than light(even though his power was well above SSJ1 Goku)

As concequences has pointed out and I have agreed with, long distance travel flight is slower than short distance combat flight

2. You have yet to even begin to tackle how the fuck even Buu is going to survive something that can obliterate the entire solar system in a blink of an eye(gridfire).

I don't care.

And all your calcs are still towards this...so you were being a hypocrite when you said to me earlier that this had nothing to do with DBZ vs the culture ya little git?

No. I debunk people of ignorance, period. If two people were debating a ISD vs. an Imperiex Probe, and one of them claimed that an ISD was only making kiloton shots at the most, you would correct that person, even though the Imreriex probe would waste an ISD. Same situation here.