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Post by EmperorSolo51 »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Just more of the protestantization of the Church, destroying subtle theological complexities built up over centuries in favour of populist appeal.
I Would like to ask where in either in Sacred Tradition or in Sacred Scripture you will find an official Church statement that accepts Limbo as Church Teaching. You can't becuase the Church on a whole in the various councils it has held has never accepted or Rejected the idea of a Limbo. Most Catholic Priests and Apologists usually will tell you even before today that Those unborn who have died since the Death, resurrection, and ascenion of Our Lord into heaven, that they are left to the Mercy of HIM Alone.

Though I should say that the Church has not abolished the idea that at one point there was a Limbo, after all as part of Sacred Tradition, we firmly believe that Christ went into Hell or Limbo (If you prefer) To rescue all of those Jews and Patriarchs of the Old Testament who lived a just life but could not enter heaven becuase of the fact that the Gates of Heaven was closed to the Church Militant until Christ came to wipe away the sin of Adam from Mankind.
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EmperorSolo51 wrote: I Would like to ask where in either in Sacred Tradition or in Sacred Scripture you will find an official Church statement that accepts Limbo as Church Teaching. You can't becuase the Church on a whole in the various councils it has held has never accepted or Rejected the idea of a Limbo. Most Catholic Priests and Apologists usually will tell you even before today that Those unborn who have died since the Death, resurrection, and ascenion of Our Lord into heaven, that they are left to the Mercy of HIM Alone.

Though I should say that the Church has not abolished the idea that at one point there was a Limbo, after all as part of Sacred Tradition, we firmly believe that Christ went into Hell or Limbo (If you prefer) To rescue all of those Jews and Patriarchs of the Old Testament who lived a just life but could not enter heaven becuase of the fact that the Gates of Heaven was closed to the Church Militant until Christ came to wipe away the sin of Adam from Mankind.
The issue is the supine elegance of the formulation, from a philosophical point of view, which has gradiations of Hell based on the nature of Sin; that all sin results in eternal separation from God is undeniable but it makes little sense, and is indeed rather repulsive, to suggest that the tortures of a robber and a murderer should be the same, let alone that any children should ever suffer any torture at all simply being unbaptized--nor should anyone who has led a virtuous life and died at a later stage.

Therefore the idea of Limbo--a place where the only punishment is the mandated one for the unbeliever, that is to say, separation from God--is functionally at once both appealing and necessary to form a coherent moral code and system of punishments in Hell which matches broadly to the crimes involved, yes? The idea that all sins are equal in the eyes of God is a protestant idea, and a dangerous one, because it destroys a moral code much more quickly than atheism ever could (as Kant demonstrated).

I'll just leave the theological matters to the Catholic Encyclopedia, which contains all the necessary references I should think.

This part is certainly the most interesting, though:
What the council [of Florence] evidently intended to deny in the passage alleged was the postponement of final awards until the day of judgement. Those dying in original sin are said to descend into Hell, but this does not necessarily mean anything more than that they are excluded eternally from the vision of God. In this sense they are damned; they have failed to reach their supernatural destiny, and this viewed objectively is a true penalty. Thus the Council of Florence, however literally interpreted, does not deny the possibility of perfect subjective happiness for those dying in original sin, and this is all that is needed from the dogmatic viewpoint to justify the prevailing Catholic notion of the children's limbo, while form the standpoint of reason, as St. Gregory of Nazianzus pointed out long ago, no harsher view can be reconciled with a worthy concept of God's justice and other attributes.
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Post by EmperorSolo51 »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
Therefore the idea of Limbo--a place where the only punishment is the mandated one for the unbeliever, that is to say, separation from God--is functionally at once both appealing and necessary to form a coherent moral code and system of punishments in Hell which matches broadly to the crimes involved, yes? The idea that all sins are equal in the eyes of God is a protestant idea, and a dangerous one, because it destroys a moral code much more quickly than atheism ever could (as Kant demonstrated).
Of Course, I believe that those who sin will charged, convicted, and punished and sentenced according to his crime and his love for all wordly Vices. However, I do believe as does the Church, that in order to committ sinone must know truly and deeply within his heart that what he has done is a clear violation of God's Law and Natural law and that he did out of his own lust and pervision of what is good and righteous. However, to say the unbaptised infants and those outside the faith who do not know about Christ but are virtuous anyway must be punished because they lived outside of the Church is a bit rediculous. In order to commit a Mortal Sin, one must have The Free will and the knowledge to know what he is doing runs contrary to God's law.

Not Only is that notion rediculous but it sparks of the Heresy of Johan Calvin on the grounds that God Created men who he knows are damned and there is nothing we can do about it and that includes unbaptised children and the "invincible Ignorants.' AS Catholics and Orthdox, we leave that up to the dine Mercy of Almighty God to care for them and that's why we have the Communion of Saints and masses for the Dead and Martyrs.
What the council [of Florence] evidently intended to deny in the passage alleged was the postponement of final awards until the day of judgement. Those dying in original sin are said to descend into Hell, but this does not necessarily mean anything more than that they are excluded eternally from the vision of God. In this sense they are damned; they have failed to reach their supernatural destiny, and this viewed objectively is a true penalty. Thus the Council of Florence, however literally interpreted, does not deny the possibility of perfect subjective happiness for those dying in original sin, and this is all that is needed from the dogmatic viewpoint to justify the prevailing Catholic notion of the children's limbo, while form the standpoint of reason, as St. Gregory of Nazianzus pointed out long ago, no harsher view can be reconciled with a worthy concept of God's justice and other attributes.
Again, This shows that Those who are unbaptised and have died in a virtuous manner are left to the Divine Mercy of God and that if One reads the Council of Florence several different ways they could walk away the supposistion that yes those not by thier owen fault have died in original sin but through thier virtuous live will enter the Kingdom of Heaven as Stated by Christ several times throughout his ministries in the Gaillee region and Jerusalem itself.
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Post by EmperorSolo51 »

Stark wrote:Does this mean they'll finally ditch all the other non-scriptural shit they took from Paradise Lost and Inferno? I mean, honestly, it's hilarious how much of what Catholics believe comes from such admitted fiction.

Religion has ALWAYS been about marketing.
I don't think you understand the concept of the fact that as Catholics we believe in both Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture together as coming from once source, God. As Catholics we draw on the writings of the Early Church Fathers such as St. Ireneus, St. Athanasius, St. Clement of Antioch, and the writings of St. Justin the Martyr and Origen (or St. Origen for the greek orthodoxy) as well as the customs of the early church itself as handed to us by the apostles through oral word. I mean if you stop and think about it, It was the catholic church who collected of all these works and through sacred tradition and the holy spirited decided that it was these bibles you see in the standard Catholic Vulgate that make up the inerrent word of God (not infallible). We also believe that God works throgh the third person of the Hol Spirit and it works through an guides various Church councils and prevents them from teaching anything runs contrary to the Goespel of Christ, even if they are sinfull as the devil himself. As Christ said to Peter in Matthew "That the Gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

That No Pope can ever teach heresy. The See of St. Peter and the one who sits on his chair as bishop of Rome and Steward of Christs Visible Church on Earth is protected by the Holy Spirit and He as the Vicar of Christ and Steward of His Church can never say anything by his own volition of a matter that contradicts the Law of God or denies the divinity or Humanity of Christ, or on matters of Sin, or anything else. No matter how bad the Pope is, he will never be allowed to teach anything that is an anathema to the Word of the Lord.
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Post by EmperorSolo51 »

Stark wrote:That's all great if you're a believer, but as a rational observer I see the church adopting what is popular, or what it needs to penetrate new cultures. It doesn't happen as much as it did in the early years, but this 'we got an update from God, and shit, that was bullshit. Sorry bout all those people who grieved for the lost souls of their dead infants: we have the new refined truth from God, and they're fine' is garbage.
There's one tiny thing wrong with your statement. The Church has never embraced, supported, or confirmed the idea of a infantile Limbo. That has been left up to the individual diocese and the Individual Person to believe, it has never at anypoint in the history of the church, been a part of Church canon or it's Catchechism.
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Post by EmperorSolo51 »

Durandal wrote: Interesting. So God could allow mortal sinners into Heaven if he really wanted to. Instead he consciously chooses to torture some people for all eternity.
He could but that is up to him. Even John Paul II said that it wasn't a bad thing to hope and pray the hell was empty. But I think that what this part of the Catchism is saying that salvation is given to those who make a perfect act of contrition and if one does thier sins shall be absolved by the Lord. We as Christians are bound to the Seven Sacraments for our salvation but we know that there are many who are given the graces of salvation through thier faith and works even though they know not the Lord and therefore if they die, we as catholics believe that like unbaptised infants that they are left to the Mercy of the Lord. That Doesn't mean that we as Christians should not go around spreading the Goespel.
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

EmperorSolo51 wrote:
Durandal wrote: Interesting. So God could allow mortal sinners into Heaven if he really wanted to. Instead he consciously chooses to torture some people for all eternity.
He could but that is up to him. Even John Paul II said that it wasn't a bad thing to hope and pray the hell was empty. But I think that what this part of the Catchism is saying that salvation is given to those who make a perfect act of contrition and if one does thier sins shall be absolved by the Lord. We as Christians are bound to the Seven Sacraments for our salvation but we know that there are many who are given the graces of salvation through thier faith and works even though they know not the Lord and therefore if they die, we as catholics believe that like unbaptised infants that they are left to the Mercy of the Lord. That Doesn't mean that we as Christians should not go around spreading the Goespel.
Suck up or suffer!

Exactly what appeals about a sociopathic imaginarey friend anyway?
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Post by EmperorSolo51 »

Keevan_Colton wrote:
Suck up or suffer!

Exactly what appeals about a sociopathic imaginarey friend anyway?
I Guess that's what Seperates Christians and Jews (and Muslims to a lesser extent) from the rest of the world, We see God as the ultimate symbol of Agape and we our Creator through His son as the visble symbol of that Love that the Father has for us, and we a Christians by duty and Honor and respect should embrace and return that love to him through the Sacraments.
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

EmperorSolo51 wrote:
Keevan_Colton wrote:
Suck up or suffer!

Exactly what appeals about a sociopathic imaginarey friend anyway?
I Guess that's what Seperates Christians and Jews (and Muslims to a lesser extent) from the rest of the world, We see God as the ultimate symbol of Agape and we our Creator through His son as the visble symbol of that Love that the Father has for us, and we a Christians by duty and Honor and respect should embrace and return that love to him through the Sacraments.
So an imaginary father/friend that beats his kids and makes them suffer unless they go on and on about what a great dad he is in which case he lays off a bit with the beatings....

Still seeing a massive amount of retardedness here.
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Keevan, you're baiting. Please stop.
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Post by Lord Zentei »

Durandal wrote:In 8 years of Catholic school, I never heard of the "guff".
That's because there isn't one. They are referring to the Chamber of Gaf, and are spelling it wrong. The Chamber of Gaf was supposedly the celestial repository of souls, and its opening signals the end of the world - or its beginning. Apocryphal and obscure. It is an idea that was used in the mythology of the Evangelion series, hence they mentioned Ritsuko.
Again, This shows that Those who are unbaptised and have died in a virtuous manner are left to the Divine Mercy of God and that if One reads the Council of Florence several different ways they could walk away the supposistion that yes those not by thier owen fault have died in original sin but through thier virtuous live will enter the Kingdom of Heaven as Stated by Christ several times throughout his ministries in the Gaillee region and Jerusalem itself.
Which raises the question: what was the point of Christ's sacrifice? If babtised sinners go to Hell and unbabtised innocents and virtuous pagans can enter Heaven, what is the point of babtism?

Unless of course, the babtised are more likely to enter Heaven and the unbabtised less likely to do so. But if so, it seems simply like a toned down version of the injustice of having unbabtised infants go to Limbo. Either someone deserves punishment or not, after all.
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Where the fuck does the church come up with this shit, and who the fuck knows about it? I spent 12 years in Catholic schools, and they NEVER talked about hell, purgatory, limbo, etc.
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Lord Zentei wrote:
Which raises the question: what was the point of Christ's sacrifice? If babtised sinners go to Hell and unbabtised innocents and virtuous pagans can enter Heaven, what is the point of babtism?[/wuote]

For the redemption of Original sin, as we are told in the Bible, The Father sent is beloved and only begotten son so that the Gates of Heaven could be opened to Mankind and by living out His beatitudes we may enter the Kingdom of Heaven and see God in all of His Glory as alluded to in the Transfiguration of Christ upon the mount. Those who died before Christ resided in what is known as the "Limbo of the Fathers" In which Christ decended to there to rescue all of the old Testament Partiarchs and bring them into Heaven. The Point of Christ's Death is not just that God in the Seconf Person of the Trinity was willing to come in Flesh and be Mortal Physically and was willing to teach first hand the ministries of His Law but to make that ultimate sacrafice through his willingness to suffer and die like the rest of Us so that through this sacrifice he has given us something that we do not deserve but are given anyway and that is eternal salvation by completing the Old Covenant and making a New and Everlasting conannt with all of Mankind.
Unless of course, the babtised are more likely to enter Heaven and the unbabtised less likely to do so. But if so, it seems simply like a toned down version of the injustice of having unbabtised infants go to Limbo. Either someone deserves punishment or not, after all.
Like I said, It is a theological theory that tries to say that the Limbo of the Father's was converted into a Limbo of Infants and Virtuous pagans, that was never canonized or spoken as offuicial Doctrine by the Pope. The only tine it ever came close was Pius X including it in an Church Catchechism in the early 1900's but it is generally Considered that this was added at the pope's personal opinion and not as the officia dogma of the church.
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SancheztheWhaler wrote:Where the fuck does the church come up with this shit, and who the fuck knows about it? I spent 12 years in Catholic schools, and they NEVER talked about hell, purgatory, limbo, etc.
They never talked about Purgatory?? I'm not sure what school you went too, but Purgatory has been declared Dogma for atleast 600 years when it was reaffirmed at Trent in 1546 and was the teaching of the Church and Spoken many a Pope since at least Nicea with the Writings of the Early Church Fathers. In fact if you read 2nd Maccabees chapter 12, verse 42-45, there is a beautiful seen where Judas Maccabeeus and his fellow Macabees are going around removing pagan symbols from these dead Hebrews who fought for the Greek Armies and he tells them that they should pray for thier souls. If there wasn't a purgatory then, There would be no reason for any modern day Jew or Christian to pray for the dead for they would be either in Hell or Heaven.

42
7 Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen.
43
He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view;
44
for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.
45
But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.
46
Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.
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EmperorSolo51 wrote:For the redemption of Original sin, as we are told in the Bible, The Father sent is beloved and only begotten son so that the Gates of Heaven could be opened to Mankind and by living out His beatitudes we may enter the Kingdom of Heaven and see God in all of His Glory as alluded to in the Transfiguration of Christ upon the mount. Those who died before Christ resided in what is known as the "Limbo of the Fathers" In which Christ decended to there to rescue all of the old Testament Partiarchs and bring them into Heaven. The Point of Christ's Death is not just that God in the Seconf Person of the Trinity was willing to come in Flesh and be Mortal Physically and was willing to teach first hand the ministries of His Law but to make that ultimate sacrafice through his willingness to suffer and die like the rest of Us so that through this sacrifice he has given us something that we do not deserve but are given anyway and that is eternal salvation by completing the Old Covenant and making a New and Everlasting conannt with all of Mankind.
Why didn't God just have Heaven in the first place? Why put all the Old Testament fathers in Limbo at all? All these theological "theories" I keep hearing about which try to explain such questions always neglect their own fundamental premise of God's omnipotence. If God's omnipotent, why go through all this drama and work? Is it the same reason Superman has the Super Friends? Because really, there's nothing that anyone else on the team does that Superman can't do.
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Post by Lord Zentei »

EmperorSolo51 wrote:For the redemption of Original sin, as we are told in the Bible, The Father sent is beloved and only begotten son so that the Gates of Heaven could be opened to Mankind and by living out His beatitudes we may enter the Kingdom of Heaven and see God in all of His Glory as alluded to in the Transfiguration of Christ upon the mount. Those who died before Christ resided in what is known as the "Limbo of the Fathers" In which Christ decended to there to rescue all of the old Testament Partiarchs and bring them into Heaven. The Point of Christ's Death is not just that God in the Seconf Person of the Trinity was willing to come in Flesh and be Mortal Physically and was willing to teach first hand the ministries of His Law but to make that ultimate sacrafice through his willingness to suffer and die like the rest of Us so that through this sacrifice he has given us something that we do not deserve but are given anyway and that is eternal salvation by completing the Old Covenant and making a New and Everlasting conannt with all of Mankind.
Perhaps I was not clear enough: I was emphasising the issue of babtism. (However, when someone is babtised, they are babtised through Christ, hence my reference to Christ's sacrifice.)

The question I was raising is what need have we for babtism if babtised sinners go to Hell and unbabtised innocents do not?
Like I said, It is a theological theory that tries to say that the Limbo of the Father's was converted into a Limbo of Infants and Virtuous pagans, that was never canonized or spoken as offuicial Doctrine by the Pope. The only tine it ever came close was Pius X including it in an Church Catchechism in the early 1900's but it is generally Considered that this was added at the pope's personal opinion and not as the officia dogma of the church.
Well, that's good and all, but not what I was going for: see my above point. If the idea of Limbo (the punishment of the virtuous unbabtised) is repugnant, then it would presumably simply be a lesser evil to enforce a double standard with regards to babtism, would it not? I was challenging the possibility that there would be any correlation at all between babtism itself per se and entering Heaven.
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Post by EmperorSolo51 »

Durandal wrote:
Why didn't God just have Heaven in the first place? Why put all the Old Testament fathers in Limbo at all? All these theological "theories" I keep hearing about which try to explain such questions always neglect their own fundamental premise of God's omnipotence. If God's omnipotent, why go through all this drama and work? Is it the same reason Superman has the Super Friends? Because really, there's nothing that anyone else on the team does that Superman can't do.
Well It goes back to an old Hebrew Tradition, which if a family had sinned, they would go to thier local priest to ask for forgiveness. If the family were truly repetant, the Priest in concoirdance with Mosiac Law would sacrafice a lamb and have it's Blood drained and the flesh eaten and drunk by the sinning family. Through this ritual that family would be absolved. That's why Priests in the Old temple wuld make thier sacrifices to God every year around Yom Kippur.

However, as noted in the Book of Hebrews, which was a letter to Still Jewish Hebrews that is attributed to St. Paul. In that letter we read that the reason why God through his son madfe that sacrafice is becuase it is the ultimate sacrifice that will wipe away the sins of the worldm not just for just one aprticular family. We reason that under the Old Covanant, Blood Sacrifice of Animals was required for absolution, however for something bigger that will end the Old Covenant and create a New and Everlasting One, The Father Send his only Son and his son being the love for all of mankind is willing to make this sacrafice so that Mankind has the ability to be lead to salvation which is what was preventing us from doing under the old Covanant of Moses.

AS for your assertion about heaven, remember in the beggining there was a heaven, However is it was innaccesable to humans in the most (two exceptions being Elijah and Ezekial but most theologians even disagree wether or nit they two had ended up in Heaven or were wisked away to the Limbo of the Fathers) part after the sin of Pride that was commited by our early parents and we were thrown out of paradise and unable to enter paradise again becuase of that sin that was stain on each and everyman's soul until Christ came and Died.
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Post by EmperorSolo51 »

[quote="Lord Zentei"]

Perhaps I was not clear enough: I was emphasising the issue of babtism. (However, when someone is babtised, they are babtised through Christ, hence my reference to Christ's sacrifice.)

The question I was raising is what need have we for babtism if babtised sinners go to Hell and unbabtised innocents do not?[quote]

It's becuase Christ tells us that as Christians we must borne again of Water and Spirit in numerous places in the Gospels and the Epistle of St. Paul to the Collosians, I think, tells that as Christians and followers of Christ we should be baptised in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Baptising only removes the stain of original Sin, It does not remove Personal sin. If You are baptised but ignore the graces by which Baptism bestows upon you and do horrible things and then is looked upon by the Church (Protestant and catholic) as a Mortal sin and those who are unbaptised still have original sin, but if they are righteous and Virtuous and incure no sin that is an affront to God's law (The two greatest Commandments) or Nature's law, they they are worthy but it was not his fault that what he was not baptised. The Church usually calls this a Form of Baptism called Baptism of Desire.
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Post by Lord Zentei »

EmperorSolo51 wrote:It's becuase Christ tells us that as Christians we must borne again of Water and Spirit in numerous places in the Gospels and the Epistle of St. Paul to the Collosians, I think, tells that as Christians and followers of Christ we should be baptised in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Baptising only removes the stain of original Sin, It does not remove Personal sin. If You are baptised but ignore the graces by which Baptism bestows upon you and do horrible things and then is looked upon by the Church (Protestant and catholic) as a Mortal sin and those who are unbaptised still have original sin, but if they are righteous and Virtuous and incure no sin that is an affront to God's law (The two greatest Commandments) or Nature's law, they they are worthy but it was not his fault that what he was not baptised. The Church usually calls this a Form of Baptism called Baptism of Desire.
In other words, we don't need to be babtised to enter Heaven: if our actions are suitably worthy, we enter Heaven anyway (through "Babtism of Desire") and if we are babtised but act like asstards we go to Hell anyway, correct?
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Post by EmperorSolo51 »

Lord Zentei wrote:
In other words, we don't need to be babtised to enter Heaven: if our actions are suitably worthy, we enter Heaven anyway (through "Babtism of Desire") and if we are babtised but act like asstards we go to Hell anyway, correct?
LIke I said, As A Christian, I wouldn't leave it up to chance. I believe that through Sacraments we recieve the Graces by which we shall be helped in combatting our sins, especially Eucharist. That's why we a Catholics should spread the gospel and not sit around praying for the "Invincible Ignorants".
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Post by Lord Zentei »

To put it differently: people are presumably born sinners due to original sin, and thus require babtism, and yet virtuous pagans may enter Heaven due to noble acts. But more tellingly: unbabtised infants who have no desires and have taken no acts, who are "blank slates" so to speak, can be given the benefit of the doubt: does this not undermine the very idea of original sin? Either the infant is a sinner or it is not, yes?
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Post by Lord Zentei »

EmperorSolo51 wrote:
Lord Zentei wrote:
In other words, we don't need to be babtised to enter Heaven: if our actions are suitably worthy, we enter Heaven anyway (through "Babtism of Desire") and if we are babtised but act like asstards we go to Hell anyway, correct?
LIke I said, As A Christian, I wouldn't leave it up to chance.
Chance? It is not chance: it is the judgement of an inerrant omniscient deity assessing our actions, isn't it?
I believe that through Sacraments we recieve the Graces by which we shall be helped in combatting our sins, especially Eucharist. That's why we a Catholics should spread the gospel and not sit around praying for the "Invincible Ignorants".
Spreading a wholesome moral philosophy is all well and good. But I'm not entirely sure how a ritual is supposed to make you a more moral person. But is it not God who grants these Graces through the ritual? And could he not do so without a ritual?
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TAX THE CHURCHES! - Lord Zentei TTC Supreme Grand Prophet

And the LORD said, Let there be Bosons! Yea and let there be Bosoms too!
I'd rather be the great great grandson of a demon ninja than some jackass who grew potatos. -- Covenant
Dead cows don't fart. -- CJvR
...and I like strudel! :mrgreen: -- Asuka
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Post by EmperorSolo51 »

Lord Zentei wrote:To put it differently: people are presumably born sinners due to original sin, and thus require babtism, and yet virtuous pagans may enter Heaven due to noble acts. But more tellingly: unbabtised infants who have no desires and have taken no acts, who are "blank slates" so to speak, can be given the benefit of the doubt: does this not undermine the very idea of original sin? Either the infant is a sinner or it is not, yes?
That's why We as Christians believe thet they are ultimately left to the mercy of God. We hope and pray the God in his mercy accepts those innocent babes who through no fault of thier own died without recieving the sanctifying grace of Baptism similary we believe that those who have not heard the Gospel of Christ, who through no fault of themselves did not recieve Baptism and lived virtuously, are left to the ultimate fate of God. We do not know if they are in heaven, but we leave open the possibility that god through his infinite mercy will save those who were even taught about Christ through no fault of thier own. Just a Jesus told that Robber who repented of His sins that he woulds see Christ in heaven.

As the Catchism says, that we as Christians are bound to the Sacraments for our slavation, God by being God is bound by them and he can save whom he wants who are outside the Christian faith.
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Post by EmperorSolo51 »

Lord Zentei wrote:
Spreading a wholesome moral philosophy is all well and good. But I'm not entirely sure how a ritual is supposed to make you a more moral person. But is it not God who grants these Graces through the ritual? And could he not do so without a ritual?
These acts are acts of perfect Contrition (Marriage being the lone exception), that we are going to Christ through the Sacraments and telling him that we are not worthy to recieve such things for we are all sinners in the eyes of God but are willing to accept these gifts that he has freely given us and with and open heart and open mind we are accepting those Saving Graces which help us and comfort us in the slaying of our own personal demons. This is double true for the Blessed Sacrament and of Penanance and Reconciliation for we are recieving Christ in Both body and Soul.
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Post by Darth Wong »

EmperorSolo51 wrote:blah blah blah Christ blah blah blah
Please explain to me how this seemingly endless recitation of your delusional belief system constitutes news.
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