Moral dilemma: is this rape?

Kojiro · Post by **Kojiro** » 2005-12-01 08:28am

A friend of mine went through this not long ago. He was having a drunken night of fun, at which his ex was present. They are on good terms, and as far as I know are still sleeping together infrequently.

What happened was, as drunk people are want to do, they hooked up. The particulars I'm not privy to but at some point she came and wanted a break, saying they'd continue in a moment. She then passes out.

My friend decided not to take advantage of her, which is a good thing in my opinion. She told us though that had he wanted to she wouldn't have minded.

So the question is, would it have been rape if he'd done it? She certainly never revoked her consent.

Another way to ask it is 'Would she have grounds to claim rape if he did?'

I'm of the opinion that consent vanishes with consciousness, and that consent requires more than just the lack of same.

Faram · Post by **Faram** » 2005-12-01 08:31am

Sleeping with someone unconscious is rape in my book. But if she said sure lets have sex and then fall asleep during sex, that I would not call rape. I do not think we can do a Black/White case her.

But really how fun can that be?

~Edit
Added some stuff.

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2005-12-01 08:44am

Kojiro wrote: I'm of the opinion that consent vanishes with consciousness, and that consent requires more than just the lack of same.

That sums it up.

If she wasn't awake, then she wasn't involved and she clearly couldn't consent one way or the other.

I grant you they had clearly been having sex and she indicated that she wanted to continue after a short break. But if she is asleep, then all bets are off. I salute your friend for being smart and moral enough to pull back and call it a night when she went to sleep. Regardless of if she said after the fact she wouldn't care, if she didn't say *before* the fact that she was going to sleep and he was more then welcome to carry on, consent is gone.

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2005-12-01 08:47am

That said, I frankly wouldn't be at all comfortable with the idea of sexual relations with someone who is ASLEEP, even if they say before hand that they don't mind. It just doesn't sit right with me.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2005-12-01 09:57am

I've been in that situation many times, and have been blue balled many times due to her just not being able to hold on after coming, and I'm sure it happens to everybody. It is morally repulsive to try to have sex in that situation, and the woman has every right to call it rape. For a woman, having sex means putting her life and trust in the hands of a man, and that trust should be respected above everything if the guy has any decency.

Trytostaydead · Post by **Trytostaydead** » 2005-12-01 09:58am

Unless she explicitly says, "If I pass out, you can have sex with my unconcious body." Yeah..

Zac Naloen · Post by **Zac Naloen** » 2005-12-01 10:12am

Colonel Olrik wrote:I've been in that situation many times, and have been blue balled many times due to her just not being able to hold on after coming, and I'm sure it happens to everybody. It is morally repulsive to try to have sex in that situation, and the woman has every right to call it rape. For a woman, having sex means putting her life and trust in the hands of a man, and that trust should be respected above everything if the guy has any decency.

that pretty much sums up my opinion well.

also having sex with an unconcious person has many similarities to necrophilia that are just far too disconcerting.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2005-12-01 10:19am

On the other hand

Waking up in the morning with a blowjob from my girlfriend is one of the best feelings ever, and if that's rape then rape me harder

- Men and women are different that way.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-12-01 10:24am

If you're already thrusting into her vagina and she somehow falls asleep after coming, I seriously have trouble seeing it as rape if you merely continue what you were already doing (with full consent) before she fell asleep. However, I don't think I would do it myself; it would be weird having sex with someone who's asleep, and to be honest, a little insulting that she couldn't stay awake.

Kojiro · Post by **Kojiro** » 2005-12-01 11:10am

I've been with a few women who might as well have been asleep for all they contribute. No fun at all.

So what if he did do it, and she doesn't care? Is it still rape if she doesn't feel violated or care in the least?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-12-01 11:12am

Personally, I think that there is a certain amount of implied consent in an ongoing relationship which has already gone sexual. According to some of the over-the-top definitions of rape that I've seen bandied about in this thread, I've been raped several times by Rebecca because of those morning blowjob wake-up calls, and that's absolutely absurd.

Zac Naloen · Post by **Zac Naloen** » 2005-12-01 11:27am

Darth Wong wrote:Personally, I think that there is a certain amount of implied consent in an ongoing relationship which has already gone sexual. According to some of the over-the-top definitions of rape that I've seen bandied about in this thread, I've been raped several times by Rebecca because of those morning blowjob wake-up calls, and that's absolutely absurd.

Waking up to a morning blow job is significantly different to having sex with an unconcious woman, is there any significant difference to being so drunk your unable to give consent to being asleep and unable to give consent?

i can't speak for the women on the board so we'd have to wait till they chip in on this but from what i've seen innerbrat post in the past its happened to her with a previous boyfriend and she didn't like it one bit..

Thinkmarble · Post by **Thinkmarble** » 2005-12-01 11:34am

Well, one problem is I think that there is only rape, but even murder comes in degrees.

I have to admit that I have not found a definition of rape which always yields results which I would call sensible.

One drunken men, one drunken women have sex with each other.

If both are unable to consent due to being drunk as a skunk did they rape each other ?
The same problem statuory rape laws run afoul of if both participant in the act are below the treshold.

Setesh · Post by **Setesh** » 2005-12-01 12:26pm

Thinkmarble wrote:Well, one problem is I think that there is only rape, but even murder comes in degrees.

I have to admit that I have not found a definition of rape which always yields results which I would call sensible.

One drunken men, one drunken women have sex with each other.

If both are unable to consent due to being drunk as a skunk did they rape each other ?
The same problem statuory rape laws run afoul of if both participant in the act are below the treshold.

In most states they either A: Charge which ever is older, or B: charge the male.

As a guy who was held down and used sexually by a girl when I was 11, I would have been charged under NC's laws on it at the time (they may have changed since) even though we were both underage. I would have gotten off (no pun intended) since she out weighed me by 30lbs but I would have been on their state sex offender registry for life.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-12-01 01:25pm

Zac Naloen wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Personally, I think that there is a certain amount of implied consent in an ongoing relationship which has already gone sexual. According to some of the over-the-top definitions of rape that I've seen bandied about in this thread, I've been raped several times by Rebecca because of those morning blowjob wake-up calls, and that's absolutely absurd.
Waking up to a morning blow job is significantly different to having sex with an unconcious woman, is there any significant difference to being so drunk your unable to give consent to being asleep and unable to give consent?

Personally, I think that if the two of you are having frequent sex anyway and the relationship is good, then consent is sort of implied unless somebody says "no". What other rationale would you have for not classifying a morning blowjob as rape? Hell, do you think either she or I ask explicitly for consent before doing something sexual to the other person? We just start doing it, and if the other person is too tired or not in the mood, we'll hear about it.

i can't speak for the women on the board so we'd have to wait till they chip in on this but from what i've seen innerbrat post in the past its happened to her with a previous boyfriend and she didn't like it one bit..

I suppose one could argue that the line is drawn differently for women than men, but that's a tricky definition and somewhat suspect. I prefer to think that there are conditions one can set where consent is implied to be the default condition unless stated otherwise. Otherwise you get the absurdity of a husband and wife getting drunk, having sex, and the husband being a rapist as a result.

Adrian Laguna · Post by **Adrian Laguna** » 2005-12-01 04:19pm

Another issue about rape is that, barring certain specific laws, there is basically no rape if the victim doesn't feel raped. There are some specific examples, such as a 25 year old having sex with a 15 year old, in which it is rape reguardless of what the victim feels. The reason for this is that legally speaking, what the victim thinks matters little because the victim is too young to give consent. Between adults, even if no consent was given or implied, if the victim does not feel raped, then there is no rape.

For the sake of argument, let's assume a guy drugs a woman and has sex with her. The woman, after waking up and finding out about this, decides she doesn't really care (incidentally, this fictional woman probably needs a very good shrink). Even if she did not actually give concent, the police can do jack shit about it unless she presses charges. If they actually can, the case falls apart as soon as the woman says that she actually did give consent.

As for the original question: If your friend had fucked the unconsious girl, then it would not be rape if she did not mind it. However, the girl would be justified in pressing rape charges because, barring specific consent ("You can fuck me if I pass out") consent dissapears when the person goes unconsious.

The issue does become a bit blurry when you are in situations of implied consent unless told otherwise. Such as a marriege or other close relationship. The husband may like waking up to a blow-job and decide that his wife may like to be pleasantly surprised to wake up to him fucking her. If the wife does not actually like it, I don't think it is not so much rape as, "I'm sorry honey, I thought you would like it. Won't happen again."

Those last two paragraphs may seem contradictory, but as I understand the OP, the relationship between the two people involved is one more of casual sex rather than a "close relationship".

Elheru Aran · Post by **Elheru Aran** » 2005-12-01 04:59pm

If one wanted to wake up their wife/female significant other sensually, I'd recommend fingers or going down. Just gettin' your wang up and sticking it into 'em would be rather rude, IMHO...

Adrian Laguna · Post by **Adrian Laguna** » 2005-12-01 11:55pm

I know, but our fictional "husband" character is a bit dense. He had to be for the purpose of my little hypothetical scenario.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-12-02 12:16am

Let's be more realistic. A husband and wife have been asleep all night. The husband wakes up with morning wood. He reaches over and pulls her panties aside, rubbing her labia and clit. She shifts in bed but does not open her eyes. Her pussy starts to get wet, and he sticks a finger into her. She moans softly but still does not open her eyes. He pushes her panties farther aside and slowly pushes his meatstick into her pussy. She moans again, but her eyes are still closed. He begins to thrust.

What if she's still asleep? Was this rape? He doesn't even know whether she's asleep. It wouldn't be that unreasonable to imagine that she's just pretending to be asleep, since one might doubt that someone would stay asleep through all of that. Then again, perhaps she really is asleep. Is he a rapist? I don't think so, myself.

Lusankya · Post by **Lusankya** » 2005-12-02 09:15am

It possibly depends on the woman. I know that my libido's at it's lowest when I wake up in the morning. I'm tired and sleepy, and the last thing I want is to have sex. And even if something happens to make my body ready for sex, it doesn't mean that I necessarily feel like having it.

Still, I'm not sure if it's rape in that circumstance. I might be pissed off about it, but I doubt I'd feel raped, unless he was very rough.

As far as the OP goes, the woman would probably consider it rape. If she woke up during it, she may have sobered up enough to realise that she doesn't actually want to have sex with the guy then things could get... tricky. I imagine she would certainly feel taken advantage of.

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2005-12-02 12:21pm

Given that in the OP they we're already having sex of some sort and apparently have been doing so on a semi-regular basis one could argue that there is a bit of implied consent. Certainly the male friend could argue that much as a husband might try to wake a spouse by rubbing her clit or otherwise stimulating her he was stimulating a partner with whom he had been and was continuing to engage in sexual relations with. Given that she had stated a desire to resume sex it seems likely that consent isn't fully lost. Now that said I wouldn't do it but I don't think it would be some great injustice for the guy to do so (obviously taking precautions).

Post by **LadyTevar** » 2005-12-02 02:01pm

Elheru Aran wrote:If one wanted to wake up their wife/female significant other sensually, I'd recommend fingers or going down. Just gettin' your wang up and sticking it into 'em would be rather rude, IMHO...

Yes, it's extremely rude... especially if it's the middle of the freakin' night and she has to be up at 6am. It's even ruder when you chain her up beforehand.

Ok, now that I've ranted about the ex-husband again, let me state this woman's opinion. If the woman is unconscious and can't tell you stop, it's rape. If shes' asleep but wakes up to tell you to stop, you stop... or it's rape.

Fuck, I'll be blunt. ANYTIME the woman is unable to make the choice to say STOP... it's RAPE.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-12-02 02:27pm

LadyTevar wrote:
Elheru Aran wrote:If one wanted to wake up their wife/female significant other sensually, I'd recommend fingers or going down. Just gettin' your wang up and sticking it into 'em would be rather rude, IMHO...
Yes, it's extremely rude... especially if it's the middle of the freakin' night and she has to be up at 6am. It's even ruder when you chain her up beforehand.

Ok, now that I've ranted about the ex-husband again, let me state this woman's opinion. If the woman is unconscious and can't tell you stop, it's rape. If shes' asleep but wakes up to tell you to stop, you stop... or it's rape.

Fuck, I'll be blunt. ANYTIME the woman is unable to make the choice to say STOP... it's RAPE.

So do you feel that the situation I described earlier counts?

SAMAS · Post by **SAMAS** » 2005-12-02 06:08pm

Darth Wong wrote:Let's be more realistic. A husband and wife have been asleep all night. The husband wakes up with morning wood. He reaches over and pulls her panties aside, rubbing her labia and clit. She shifts in bed but does not open her eyes. Her pussy starts to get wet, and he sticks a finger into her. She moans softly but still does not open her eyes. He pushes her panties farther aside and slowly pushes his meatstick into her pussy. She moans again, but her eyes are still closed. He begins to thrust.

What if she's still asleep? Was this rape? He doesn't even know whether she's asleep. It wouldn't be that unreasonable to imagine that she's just pretending to be asleep, since one might doubt that someone would stay asleep through all of that. Then again, perhaps she really is asleep. Is he a rapist? I don't think so, myself.

How about: pre-sanctioned rape, then?

Or perhaps more realisically, when a relationship reaches that level, it's no longer rape unless she actually has some form of objection to it. I dunno...

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2005-12-02 06:42pm

There is such a thing as 'standing consent unless revoked', at least in relationships.

For example, Caius as standing consent to do whatever she wants to me with reason (i.e we would do while awake) while I'm asleep.

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Moral dilemma: is this rape?

Moral dilemma: is this rape?

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