I'm having a minor debate on another thread about gays marrying, and the 'sanctity' of marriage. I brought up that point that I didn't think that marriage was originally a religious institution, and that people have been getting married (for economical and political reasons) long before christianity decided to make it theirs. Now, someone brought this up:
ok, I didn't read much of the thread, but yeah...
Christianity uses both the Hebrew scriptures and Greek scripture (old testament and new testament to some of you). 2 Timothy 3:16, “says all scripture is inspired of God”. Thus, things in the Hebrew scriptures are beneficial to us still. God made the first marriage arrangement with Adam and eve. So no, marriage wasn't created by Christianity, it was made by god. And of course, it was something that was continued in Christianity. if you really do believe in God and try to serve him the way he outlines for us through the bible, you'll see that no, God does not condone same sax marriage, and he never will. Forgot the scripture, but it say somewhere that God does not change in his views. So if he condemned samisen marriage way back, he still does now.
How do I argue that, is that circular reasoning? Is there any material on the web, or do any of you have any information, that is more historically accurate than the bible?
Nevermind all the other cultures which predate Christianity that've had marriage ceremonies well before it came into existence. (China, Japan, various European tribes). It sounds as if he's simply relying on the old "the bible is infallible, and Christianity was the first to do everything" argument here.
"It's you Americans. There's something about nipples you hate. If this were Germany, we'd be romping around naked on the stage here."
I would probably contend his use of the Bible as a moral or historical authority, but that depends on where you're having this debate: on some boards, "disrespecting religion" gets you banned.
Then all you need to do is point out the sheer amount of other cultures who had marriage before Christianity ever existed, and watch the furious backpedaling commence. This one is one of the more simplistic arguments.
"It's you Americans. There's something about nipples you hate. If this were Germany, we'd be romping around naked on the stage here."
I've already gone that route, but it never works. They've already gotten off track and told me to prove that god DOESN'T exist. It's like you make a point on one thing, then they segue into something completely different to divert the attention from their losing arguments. It hurts my head...but I get sucked in and continue to "debate". lol
Uh, God didn't create marriage, the jews happened to write about a marriage in their creation myth. Ask him to show you archaeological/anthropological evidence of God creating the institution of marriage, because obviously, that is silly and there is nothing to support it.
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His argument assumes that there is a god in the first place to make marriage. Not only that; his whole "god made marriage" phrase is based on presumptious Christian doctrine via the Bible. It's amazing how he can't see the blatant contradiction in his statement.
mplsjocc wrote:I've already gone that route, but it never works. They've already gotten off track and told me to prove that god DOESN'T exist.
While you're at it, tell him to prove to you that invisible pink unicorns don't exist either. An opponent's faulty logic is best revealed to reusing it on them.
You might also want to point out the fallacy of that "God has unchanging views" bit...the story about Noah and God promising never to send a flood like that again (which people like Falwell seem to have forgotten, incidentally) would contradict that statement.
Jehovah keeps changing the rules of marriage. He allows polygamy, incest, and the kidnapping of foreign girls to be used as sex slaves. If God himself can't make up his mind about marriage, who are mere mortals like this wanker to sanctify it?
Jehovah keeps changing the rules of marriage. He allows polygamy, incest, and the kidnapping of foreign girls to be used as sex slaves. If God himself can't make up his mind about marriage, who are mere mortals like this wanker to sanctify it?
This is good! Tell those assholes that when God still talked to people in their heads, people were being polygamous incestous genocidal slave-trading assholes, and that's how he liked it! And that's why he's no longer talking to us, because we have committed transgressions against him by imposing such heinous blasphemies as monogamy, civil rights, laws against rape and incest!
PRAISE!
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This is simple: The Bible never mensions marriage in connection with Adam and Eve. Therefore, he is wrong.
I am capable of rearranging the fundamental building blocks of the universe in under six seconds. I shelve physics texts under "Fiction" in my personal library! I am grasping the reigns of the universe's carriage, and every morning get up and shout "Giddy up, boy!" You may never grasp the complexities of what I do, but at least have the courtesy to feign something other than slack-jawed oblivion in my presence. I, sir, am a wizard, and I break more natural laws before breakfast than of which you are even aware!
How can anyone quote the ancient Biblical texts on the sanctity of marriage when they describe polygamy and a husband fucking the maid with God's blessing?
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
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The thing these fucktards don't understand is that not only has the Bible and church doctrine been contradicted by the laws of men for centuries, but Christian rules contradict themselves.
For example, in the Old Testament, divorce was legal so long as the wife's senior male relative was reimbursed for any dowry he paid the husband, plus a bonus since the bride is "used goods" and it might be difficult to pay someone else to marry her. But the Church has been against ANY divorces without special dispensation from the Pope for over 1500 years. A dowry refund -let alone interest penalty (no usury for Christians)- would be out of the question. Of course, the Church had a way of pulling Q-like dispensations out of its ass when, say a noble or rich person wanted to marry a first cousin or get a marriage annulled. Keep in mind that for most of the Church's history, only the marriages of the nobility and property owners were considered important. Who married or split up from whom was of little concern among the the lumpen peasants.
So before you even start wrangling with these Jesus Christers, make them define their terms. Which set of Christian rules do they want to go by? Once they pick, nail their balls to the wall.
Darth Wong wrote:How can anyone quote the ancient Biblical texts on the sanctity of marriage when they describe polygamy and a husband fucking the maid with God's blessing?
Monogamy in marriage comes from Greco-Roman law, and has zilch to do with the Bible. The fact that Christianity rejected polygamy is owed to Roman law. Maybe someone should ask the fundies why they obey the fiendish, satanic laws of pagan Rome and only marry one wife at a time, rather than several.
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- PeZook
