Racist Rantings in China/Japan Over Geisha Movie

[Joe]

Anyone who knows China and Japan will know how much they hate each other. That said, Kernel makes a good point; Asians are almost unknown in Hollywood, so a tiny number of Asian men and women reappear in any film or TV show where someone of that ethnicity is required.

Or they simply rewrite the role so that Tom Cruise can fill it.

Ah, another person who didn't pay attention to that shitty movie. Listen, the whole point of Tom Cruise being in the movie was so the filmmakers could emphasize just how much better the Samurai were than the Westerners, and obviously it wouldn't do for a 19th-century American Captain to be played by an Asian. Practically all the small-town folksy community cliches were in place with the samurai community. Hell, all the Japanese in the movie who weren't regressive feudal holdouts were either collaborators with the evil western imperialists or their unwitting lackeys.

[Vympel]

Why? The American test audience was confused over things like why the characters were dressed in kimonos and ate with chopsticks.

Get the fuck out of here. Where do they get these test audiences? Homes for the mentally fucking disabled?

[LordShaithis]

I'll file this away for the next time I hear the asinine "If everyone were the same color there would be no racism!" routine.

[Sea Skimmer]

Say, anyone know if the movie actually shows the Bi-ni-ju-ku burning down 51% of target Tokyo?

[NecronLord]

Death threats,

I don't think that's a really serious death threat. More along the lines of my comment after the last episode of Dr Who that the writer needed to be flogged to death. P'raps the film just really sucks ass?

[Edward Yee]

But the samurai in Last Samurai generally looked historically accurate, right?

Actually... meh!

Even as an armchair "student" of Japanese history over the years, I'm surprised any of the armor left over and evidently un-mothballed still worked. And why did some of the armor look Chinese? (I've never heard of "sewn" plates as part of a "big man's" armor, nor for that matter scale mail.)

My reaction was more "oh no, not more samurai fanwanking" Joe summed it up. Say, wasn't this Dances With Wolves in Japan?

The hairstyles, costumes, and dances we see in the trailer all seem like a funky, modern art interpretation of a geisha. It's especially puzzling given that a good deal of the book is spent describing the intracacies, nuances, and importance of a geisha's hair and dress.

Well, there is the question of how much the movie follows the book, something not yet revealed...

[Rubberanvil]

Add in the fact that Zhang Ziyi can't speak English well yet the movie is in English and I think we've got a real winner here .

What a pity, I loved the book. are there any early reviews up?

Well Wiki does a have a page on it which also includes quite a bit of detail on the book. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memoirs_of_a_Geisha

[AniThyng]

But the samurai in Last Samurai generally looked historically accurate, right?

Actually, it is my understanding that the Samurai of that era *also* used modern weaponary and tactics in their rebellion just like thier imperial army counterparts...just that they were not a peasant conscript army.

[Ypoknons]

But the samurai in Last Samurai generally looked historically accurate, right?

The Samurai in "The Last Samurai" looked like Samurai from the Warring States period, the height of medieval Japanese society, 400 years before. The real "Samurai" of the civil war, then, represented the feudal system, not a fighting style. They used guns, though not guns as good their enemies with Civil War equipment.

I think it is important not to go overboard into the Japan and China hate each other thing because honestly it's quite hyped by the media and as I have said before, you won't find your typical teenager shouting for a boycott of Japanese goods. My only proof, of course, is personal experience - this is what I felt when I lived in Hong Kong. Both Chinese and Japanese societies are of course, quite bigoted, although I would argue the Japan culture more so (their distaste for overseas Japanese is unpreecdented and gui lo has a less negetive connotation than gaijin), but seriously this stuff is incredible extreme.

That is not say, so balantly casting Zhang ZiYi as a Geisha is sloppy.

[Darth Yoshi]

Less negative? You mean more negative, right? 'Cause gui lo (I think that's Southern slang) is roughly translated as demon.

[Grasscutter]

But the samurai in Last Samurai generally looked historically accurate, right?

Actually... meh!

Even as an armchair "student" of Japanese history over the years, I'm surprised any of the armor left over and evidently un-mothballed still worked. And why did some of the armor look Chinese? (I've never heard of "sewn" plates as part of a "big man's" armor, nor for that matter scale mail.)

My reaction was more "oh no, not more samurai fanwanking" Joe summed it up. Say, wasn't this Dances With Wolves in Japan?

I stand corrected then. I've only seen the trailers for Last Samurai and those turned me off enough not to see the film. From what you're saying, it seems I made a good decision .

Makes this statement from the Reuters article on the controversy seem all the more accurate:

"It's a Hollywood movie. It's just entertainment, so what can we do?" said an official at the Kyoto Traditional Musical Art Foundation, which promotes the music, dance and other arts of old Japan. "Hollywood has always done things like ignoring history."

[Lord of the Farce]

Less negative? You mean more negative, right? 'Cause gui lo (I think that's Southern slang) is roughly translated as demon.

Literal translation of "gui" is ghost, "lo" is guy. The term "gui lo" came about simply because Westerners looked ghostly pale.

[Darth Wong]

I'll file this away for the next time I hear the asinine "If everyone were the same color there would be no racism!" routine.

Colour is hardly the only distinguishing feature of race, nor is it the only distinction which would be blurred by interracial mixing, fucktard.

[Master of Ossus]

Plenty. Halle Berry, Sidney Poitier, Keith David, Ernie Hudson, Cuba Gooding Jr...these are just off the top of my head, I know that there lots more. But it's true, blacks in Hollywood had to crawl their way to the top and it took a long time before they got adaquate representation in film.

I don't think that's true at all. Blacks starred in movies going back to the 1920's, and appeared quite frequently in early films. Hollywood as a whole began to use blacks in movies almost as soon as the film industry sprang up. You can argue that they weren't given the attention that they deserved, and it's certainly true that many films have been racist (overtly in some cases, less-obviously in others [ala. type casting]) towards them, but blacks did have representation even as Hollywood was first being established, and only shoddy scholarship can suggest otherwise.

[Darth Wong]

I actually recall that the last time anyone looked at the issue, blacks were actually OVERrepresented in Hollywood, compared to their statistical representation in the population.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Less negative? You mean more negative, right? 'Cause gui lo (I think that's Southern slang) is roughly translated as demon.

Literal translation of "gui" is ghost, "lo" is guy. The term "gui lo" came about simply because Westerners looked ghostly pale.

I briefly dated a Japanese girl in college, but word got to her parents and her father DROVE SIX HUNDRED MILES to explain to me her daughter would not take up with a gaijin and become a whore, and that if we dated again she'd be pulled out of school and brought home. It took a lot of effort not to destroy him, but we broke up anyway. She graduated, married a boy from a "nice family" and is now a baby factory.

[Master of Ossus]

You know what IS racist about this movie? The fact that Hollywood has such a limited number of asian actors that they don't have any choice but to put them all in the same movie. Hell, can anyone think of a leading Japanese actor besides Ken Watanabe? Let's face it, Hollywood doesn't like asian actors at all; think about how many black actors there are in Hollywood and you'll see what I mean.

I love the way morons deride the fact that some groups have small numbers of people in X profession as proof that that profession is biased against that ethnicity. Does it not occur to you that Asians in the US make up less than 4% of the entire population? And that's ALL people who come from Asia. When you limit it to people from Japan, the numbers would much lower. This is like complaining that whites are racially oppressed in Hollywood because only a very few actors are from Bulgaria.

[The Kernel]

I don't think that's true at all. Blacks starred in movies going back to the 1920's, and appeared quite frequently in early films. Hollywood as a whole began to use blacks in movies almost as soon as the film industry sprang up. You can argue that they weren't given the attention that they deserved, and it's certainly true that many films have been racist (overtly in some cases, less-obviously in others [ala. type casting]) towards them, but blacks did have representation even as Hollywood was first being established, and only shoddy scholarship can suggest otherwise.

And how many of these roles were leading? How much racial stereotyping was used in casting? I'm not just referring to the number of jobs given out here.

I love the way morons deride the fact that some groups have small numbers of people in X profession as proof that that profession is biased against that ethnicity. Does it not occur to you that Asians in the US make up less than 4% of the entire population? And that's ALL people who come from Asia. When you limit it to people from Japan, the numbers would much lower. This is like complaining that whites are racially oppressed in Hollywood because only a very few actors are from Bulgaria.

By that logic, Hollywood should have low representation of British or French actors. Film is an international business and Hollywood commonly shares talent with film industries in other countries. However, Hollywood has traditionally ignored both the Japanese and Chinese film industries (with some lessening towards Hong Kong as of late).

[The Kernel]

I actually recall that the last time anyone looked at the issue, blacks were actually OVERrepresented in Hollywood, compared to their statistical representation in the population.

These days? Absolutely. "Black" culture is popular in television, music and film, which naturally leads to an abundance of popular black actors and actresses.

[LordShaithis]

I'll file this away for the next time I hear the asinine "If everyone were the same color there would be no racism!" routine.

Colour is hardly the only distinguishing feature of race, nor is it the only distinction which would be blurred by interracial mixing, fucktard.

Are you speaking of other physical differences (facial features, hair, etc.) or of cultural distinctions which would also be blurred?

I'm of the general opinion that if you took a racist society and somehow made all it's people as genetically identical as is possible (without screwing up their ability to breed) you would still end up with a bunch of Liliputians and Blefuscuans, fighting over the proper way to eat an egg. Maybe I'm just a pessimist.

[Ypoknons]

Less negative? You mean more negative, right? 'Cause gui lo (I think that's Southern slang) is roughly translated as demon.

My translation would be "White ghost" with a comic edge to it, as goes with most things Cantonese. Ghost is a much more maleable word that the Mandarin version; ghosts can be silly or scary. Recall that the leading English newspaper of Hong Kong, the South China Morning Post, with mainly Western editors, feel comfortable enough about the term declare themselves "gui lo" in their entertainment columns and such. It can be used pretty insultingly, but most of the time it is pretty generic and neutral. In other words, whereas what I've indicates that being called "gaijin" bug foreigners due to its tone and implications, the use of "guilo" would more likely provoke a hearty cuckle.

[Darth Wong]

I'll file this away for the next time I hear the asinine "If everyone were the same color there would be no racism!" routine.

Colour is hardly the only distinguishing feature of race, nor is it the only distinction which would be blurred by interracial mixing, fucktard.

Are you speaking of other physical differences (facial features, hair, etc.) or of cultural distinctions which would also be blurred?

All of it. You can't erase distinctions but you can reduce them.

I'm of the general opinion that if you took a racist society and somehow made all it's people as genetically identical as is possible (without screwing up their ability to breed) you would still end up with a bunch of Liliputians and Blefuscuans, fighting over the proper way to eat an egg. Maybe I'm just a pessimist.

Yes you would. But your implication that they would be just as numerous, just as virulent, and just as able to easily identify their targets at a distance is bullshit.

[Master of Ossus]

And how many of these roles were leading?

Many, you ignorant clod.

How much racial stereotyping was used in casting?

Probably a lot, just as still occurs today but which you seemed to accept earlier in the thread.

I'm not just referring to the number of jobs given out here.

Really? What would "adequate representation" mean to you, then. Define your terms.

By that logic, Hollywood should have low representation of British or French actors. Film is an international business and Hollywood commonly shares talent with film industries in other countries. However, Hollywood has traditionally ignored both the Japanese and Chinese film industries (with some lessening towards Hong Kong as of late).

Don't be a complete retard. I'm talking about UNDERrepresentation, I freely admit that demographically many groups are overrepresented in Hollywood, but to claim that Asians are underrepresented is rather dubious.

As for your claims that Hollywood ignores Japanese and Chinese films, I call bullshit. Hollywood trips over itself to lavish praise on every Japanese and Chinese film that comes over to the US (even if it's considered a piece of shit in the country that it's from, ala Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon). Kurasawa is easily considered one of the greatest directors of all time, and his film-making is constantly mimicked by other directors and film-makers. There are many reasons why Hollywood generally does not import actors from abroad, with language difficulties being high on the list (which also helps explain the comparative ease with which British actors make it in Hollywood). Asian Americans as a whole are actually pretty well represented in Hollywood: perhaps SLIGHTLY underrepresented as a fraction of the populace, but certainly nothing that you could hang a racism charge on.

As to your claims that US films commonly share talent with industries in other countries I would agree provided that the other countries are ENGLISH SPEAKING. Relatively few French actors, for instance, succeed in Hollywood despite France's considerable domestic film-industry.

[Ypoknons]

To think of it, racial profiling is something with regards to historical accuracy. If a black woman played the Geisha, people would simply be perplexed. Whilst a Chinese woman more resembles a Japanese woman, the physical differences are there (even if American audiences are not adapt at identifying them), and certainly it would be more reflective of the book ethnically Japanese woman could play the role. China forum writers are of course getting all patriotic about it again, of course.

There are roles where profiling can be negetively racist - if only white women are considered for the role of an generic lawyer at an American firm, or Asian men rejected for the job of random drunken frat boy, then yes, that is racism. But if I cast Zhang Zi Yi as Queen Elizabeth is some movie, is that not ridiculous?

Not only is the size of the representation a concern, but that what the representation actually is distrubing. How many movies released to mainstream US audiences have not represented Zhang ZiYi as an object of sex desire anyways? (Heck, she's not that hot for a 26 year old!)

[Grasscutter]

And how many of these roles were leading?

Many, you ignorant clod.

Can you give a few examples?

There are roles where profiling can be negetively racist - if only white women are considered for the role of an generic lawyer at an American firm, or Asian men rejected for the job of random drunken frat boy, then yes, that is racism.

This typecasting is why a lot of people say that Hollywood is biased against minorities. Asians and other minorities are rarely considered for "generic" roles, leading or otherwise.