Wanked-out Section 31

[Battlehymn Republic]

It seems to me that Section 31 is constantly being praised by rabid Trekkies as being able to infiltrate occupied Federation territory and leading a successful resistance war.

My questions are:

1. Could they do this and survive for a few years?

2. Could they find a way to hookup with the Rebels?

3. How cutthroat is Section 31, canonwise? Most fics tend to make them too badass to fit the regular Trek vibe.

[Alyeska]

I have no doubt they could infiltrate. I also think they could make a bloody good nuicance of themselves. They seemed semi-competent enough to stay under the radar for 200 years. But could they do anything of significant value? Without the resources of the Federation (basicaly the resources of a government), highly unlikely. They would merely be a highly trained resistance group adept at staying hidden, little else.

[Darth Wong]

Section 31 has never demonstrated the ability to accomplish jack squat besides spying on their own citizens. Even their grand accomplishment of the anti-Founder bioweapon was a result of data taken from Bashir and Odo.

Look at the Romulans: near the end of the Dominion War, Section 31 had turned its eye to the Romulan Empire. Nice to see how horribly they dropped the ball on that one; they had absolutely no idea that Shinzon was coming, and they provided no warning of his existence to Starfleet even after he already had sufficient power to challenge the government.

[Alyeska]

The complete ignorance of the DS9 subplot on the Romulans with relation to Nemesis so pissed me off. FOR FUCKS SAKE, THE ROMULAN INTELIGENCE DIRECTOR WAS IN STARFLEETS POCKET! They damned well should have had MUCH better data on the Romulans. Then again with the events of Nemesis Spock should have been mentioned.

(mutters about shoddy writing)

[Lord Revan]

GR/NR: might provive some info of any value to but little (if anything) more then that.
GE: while they might able infiltrate imperial, dout they could get their hands on anything valueble.

Like Darth Wong said the Section 31 has been able mosty only spy on federation citizens.

[Adrian Laguna]

I think a better question is: Can a resistance movement be willing to go up against the kind of hard-ass brutality that the Empire is capable off when they want to? Reffer to: Alderaan, World Devastators, Dankayo (three words: Base Delta Zero).

We are talking of Boer War (half-way down the article) style tactics. If the Empire feels like keeping the casualties low.

[Alyeska]

Section 31 might get its best work done by dealing with collaborators.

[Elheru Aran]

Section 31 might get its best work done by dealing with collaborators.

*What* collaborators, though? If we're talking the same Galactic Empire here, this is the same Empire where Darth Vader casually executes an Admiral for the tactical error of coming out of hyperspace too close to a certain planet... somehow, considering the odds, I *seriously* doubt there'll be many collaborators. Perhaps a few Rebels, certainly... I've no doubt some of the Senators that disagreed with Palpatine would be happy to provide what information they were privy to. Which wouldn't be that much.

[Alyeska]

And yet the Empire still have a volunteer force, people choose to be part of the Empire. Given how some aspects of the Federation government works, some have theorized that the Federation wouldn't be conquered because it would instead petition for membership.

It is not out of the realm of possibility that people in the Federation would willingly work with the Empire post-war.

[Noble Ire]

If we're talking the same Galactic Empire here, this is the same Empire where Darth Vader casually executes an Admiral for the tactical error of coming out of hyperspace too close to a certain planet... somehow, considering the odds, I *seriously* doubt there'll be many collaborators.

To be fair, Ozzel was partly responsible for the deaths of 64,000 Imperial crewmen.

Nevertheless, finding collaborators would be more difficult than in the Federation, especially people who matter at all. Still, it would be possible to bribe or manipulate a Rim Moff or captain I suppose. That does raise the question though, what would the agents have to offer anyone who wasn't already opposed to the Empire? Barring blackmail or something, they don't have that much clout without the Federation's resources (for whatever they're worth.)

[Elfdart]

No matter how the Federation was annexed by the Empire (by force or voluntarily), they could look forward to being watched constantly for even the tiniest sign of disloyalty or subversion. Most of Section 31 would simply be absorbed (like the Arrow Cross of Hungary) or killed off. Those who escaped might join the Rebellion, but unless they somehow bring some sort of valuable technology to the Rebels that doesn't also end up in the hands of the Empire, they would be little more than live bodies added to the Rebels' roster.

What might be interesting is if the Federation just rolls over 100% for Palpatine, the Rebellion and its sympathizers might resent the living shit out of them and send their own spies and infiltrators to stir up trouble. Section 31 might be of value in that case, as quislings often are.

[Bounty]

They seemed semi-competent enough to stay under the radar for 200 years.

That is, if you assume the Keystone Cops of the ENT era* are the same outfit as the spooks of DS9. They share the name and MO, but the suspicious absence of anything S31-related in TOS and TMP makes me wonder if they are really a continuos organisation, despite what Sloan claimed.

Without the resources of the Federation (basicaly the resources of a government)

S31's main asset appears to be that they bring together sympathisers from *within* Starfleet who each have access to information that isn't available to the general public. I never got the impression that they had any significant resources themselves.

*Outwitted by ridge-headed Klingons ? A supposedly "top" retired agent who blubbers like a baby and throws a tantrum when he's outed ? The only semi-competent thing we've seen them do is get (partial !) info on a United Earth facility...

[NecronLord]

The complete ignorance of the DS9 subplot on the Romulans with relation to Nemesis so pissed me off. FOR FUCKS SAKE, THE ROMULAN INTELIGENCE DIRECTOR WAS IN STARFLEETS POCKET! They damned well should have had MUCH better data on the Romulans. Then again with the events of Nemesis Spock should have been mentioned.

(mutters about shoddy writing)

For all we know, the (loyal members of the) Tal Shiar found him and tortured him to death the day after IAESL ended.

[Darth Wong]

For all we know, the (loyal members of the) Tal Shiar found him and tortured him to death the day after IAESL ended.

Either that or he was never really in their pockets, and was only feeding them enough information to keep the bribes coming.

[Battlehymn Republic]

Those who escaped might join the Rebellion, but unless they somehow bring some sort of valuable technology to the Rebels that doesn't also end up in the hands of the Empire, they would be little more than live bodies added to the Rebels' roster.

Do transporters count as valuable technology?

[Alyeska]

Transporters definately count as valuable technology. Imagine the weapons potential. Or use for movement of resources. They don't just have to be used as a people movement system.

[Darth Wong]

Transporters definately count as valuable technology. Imagine the weapons potential. Or use for movement of resources. They don't just have to be used as a people movement system.

But the Empire would already have them by that point, if they're in control of Federation planets. So they would confer no special advantage to the Rebels.

Besides, an insurgency only works so long as the occupier is unwilling to tolerate casualties and unwilling to take ruthless measures in retaliation. The Empire is the sort of organization which would issue a decree saying that 1 million Federation citizens will die for every Imperial citizen who is killed by an act of Federation insurgents. And they would unhesitatingly follow through on this edict.

After all, they blew away an entire planet just to make a point, and the Federation would be considered aliens to them, so their lives would be worth even less.

[Elfdart]

S31's main asset appears to be that they bring together sympathisers from *within* Starfleet who each have access to information that isn't available to the general public. I never got the impression that they had any significant resources themselves.

So they're like resistance cells in reverse?

Those who escaped might join the Rebellion, but unless they somehow bring some sort of valuable technology to the Rebels that doesn't also end up in the hands of the Empire, they would be little more than live bodies added to the Rebels' roster.

Do transporters count as valuable technology?

Transporters definately count as valuable technology. Imagine the weapons potential. Or use for movement of resources. They don't just have to be used as a people movement system.

Overall, it would help the Rebellion more than the Empire (assuming both sides get the technology) since slipping personnel and equipment (and the odd bomb) in and out of places means more to partisans than to regular forces.

[TimothyC]

Transporters definately count as valuable technology. Imagine the weapons potential. Or use for movement of resources. They don't just have to be used as a people movement system.

But the Empire would already have them by that point, if they're in control of Federation planets. So they would confer no special advantage to the Rebels.

However it seems that S31 has access to better transporters than the standard for the Federation, as Sloan nabbed Bashir without anyone knowing how he did it. That or Sloan did a better job of covering his tracks.

[Rogue 9]

If we're talking the same Galactic Empire here, this is the same Empire where Darth Vader casually executes an Admiral for the tactical error of coming out of hyperspace too close to a certain planet... somehow, considering the odds, I *seriously* doubt there'll be many collaborators.

To be fair, Ozzel was partly responsible for the deaths of 64,000 Imperial crewmen.

Say what?

[Elheru Aran]

If we're talking the same Galactic Empire here, this is the same Empire where Darth Vader casually executes an Admiral for the tactical error of coming out of hyperspace too close to a certain planet... somehow, considering the odds, I *seriously* doubt there'll be many collaborators.

To be fair, Ozzel was partly responsible for the deaths of 64,000 Imperial crewmen.

Say what?

I know. I think he means either an incident that happened before ESB, or the Imperial deaths in the Battle of Hoth, which wouldn't make sense considering Ozzel was dead by then... his only culpability in that battle was his tactical mistake, which admittedly could have led to said death.

[Patrick Ogaard]

To be fair, Ozzel was partly responsible for the deaths of 64,000 Imperial crewmen.

Say what?

I know. I think he means either an incident that happened before ESB, or the Imperial deaths in the Battle of Hoth, which wouldn't make sense considering Ozzel was dead by then... his only culpability in that battle was his tactical mistake, which admittedly could have led to said death.

It could be a reference to the SW comic books incident in which the Executor was (perhaps clumsily) placed in the path of the late Admiral Griff's luckless three-ship taskforce. The three ships come out of hyperspace and immediately mash themselves into fireballs on the Executor's shields. If Ozzel was in command, it could have been yet another screwup on his part.

Of course, it could also be a reference to something completely different.

[Darth Wong]

Transporters definately count as valuable technology. Imagine the weapons potential. Or use for movement of resources. They don't just have to be used as a people movement system.

But the Empire would already have them by that point, if they're in control of Federation planets. So they would confer no special advantage to the Rebels.

However it seems that S31 has access to better transporters than the standard for the Federation, as Sloan nabbed Bashir without anyone knowing how he did it. That or Sloan did a better job of covering his tracks.

Considering the extreme porosity of Federation computer security, I would suggest the latter. Remember that Worf was able to make completely imaginary starships appear on the viewscreen of the Federation's most advanced starship, by hacking into it across a wireless network connection. Making the sensors ignore a transporter signal would be child's play for someone who has any knowledge of their security protocols.

[m.castaldo]

Transporters definately count as valuable technology. Imagine the weapons potential. Or use for movement of resources. They don't just have to be used as a people movement system.

But the Empire would already have them by that point, if they're in control of Federation planets. So they would confer no special advantage to the Rebels.

Perhaps not, but without having the technology, they'd be at even more of a disadvantage. Plus the fact that since the Rebellion is a terroristic organization, they'd be able to make better use of transporter technology when it comes to weaponry uses, since they fight a guerllia war.

Send in three valuable agents to blow up a command center, who would be hard pressed to replace? Or simply use those agents to sabotage the field generator so the transporter can beam in the bomb to the command center, keeping said agents out of the no-doubt extremly heavily guarded area?

Considering the extreme porosity of Federation computer security, I would suggest the latter. Remember that Worf was able to make completely imaginary starships appear on the viewscreen of the Federation's most advanced starship, by hacking into it across a wireless network connection. Making the sensors ignore a transporter signal would be child's play for someone who has any knowledge of their security protocols.

That's somewhat shoddy thinking. Yes, while it's been shown that Federation shields can be bypassed by knowing the prefix code, doing something that you suggest wouldn't be possible. Using Worf as an example is somewhat silly, especially when you say someone with 'any' knowledge of their security protocols can do what he did. Remember, he's the security chief, and odds are he either drafted the security protocols for the Enterprise-D or had a large amount of input concerning them. Obviously not just 'someone who has any knowledge of their security protocols'.

[ds615]

Is Section 31 even a real consideration?

Do we have any actual proof that Section 31 had more members than just Slone?