Atheists Sue Over Road Crosses For Troopers Killed

theski · Post by **theski** » 2005-12-02 01:22pm

Of all the stupid causes to sue.. This doesnt help their cause..

Atheists Sue Over Road Crosses For Troopers Killed In Line Of DutyA group of atheists in Salt Lake City is taking on the State of Utah and the Utah Highway Patrol over the law enforcement agency's use of crosses on roadways to memorialize troopers killed in the line of duty.

The lawsuit has triggered a debate about whether a cross is an appropriate way of honoring troopers killed in the line of duty.

The American atheists filing the lawsuit said they respect the sacrifices the troopers have made, but they are offended by the used of what they call a religious symbol to honor them.

"Government should not endorse religion in general, nor should a government endorse a particular religion," attorney Brain Barnard said. "For a Jew to look at it, for a Muslim to look at it, for a Buddhist to look at it, they are not going to say that's a neutral symbol."

There are about a dozen of the crosses all around Utah, with each one remembering a trooper who lost his life while on duty.

A spokesman for the Utah Highway Patrol said the crosses are an international sign of memorial and not just a religious symbol.

"These were the people we have known in the past and we need to memorialize those people," Utah Highway Patrol Sgt. Todd Royce said.

The attorney for those filing the lawsuit says it's inappropriate for the crosses to be on government land and the crosses should not have the UHP logo on them.

The suit will be filed in Salt Lake's Federal Court.

http://www.local6.com/news/5450952/detail.html

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2005-12-02 01:27pm

This is one of those cases where the decedents' wishes and practices should be the trump card. If I was a soldier in Iraq and got killed, I wouldn't want people memorializing me with a cross on a highway, for example. I'd much rather have an imperial-looking bust of myself in a courtroom as a memorial.

But if the troopers in question were practicing Christians (not unlikely, given that they're from Utah), go ahead and memorialize them in a way which would respect their views on death. But if one of the troopers was a Muslim, a cross would be disrespectful.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2005-12-02 01:28pm

I don't see why they can't have standard headstones rather than go for crosses or Star of Davids or crescent moons. If they want a particular style, go for it. If they don't ask for anything in particular, go for what their religion states.

Lord Zentei · Post by **Lord Zentei** » 2005-12-02 01:35pm

What a bunch of asshats. This is couterproductive to say the least - but I guess that sexually frustrated cranky morons with an ability to shoot themselves in the foot are not exclusive to the fundamentalists. As for myself, being an atheist, if I were killed in action I would not care what kind of damn headstone I would get, being dead.

(Though speaking at present, the idea of a huge pyramid or mausoleum with robotic mummy guards and ritual sacrifice as part of my bequest sounds appealing...

)

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2005-12-02 01:36pm

Even as an atheist, I'm fairly ambivelant to using crosses as the memorial stones. It matters if the families of the troopers have a problem with it. However, I think that this group needs to shut the fuck up in the same way I think Christian groups that protest non-Christian public things need to shut the fuck up. Not everything is a fucking battle and America would be a hell of alot better a place if people didn't start ideological fights over stupid shit.

Besides, it's not like it's a Ten Commandments monument in a courthouse, it's a memorial for state troopers. Given my respect for the state police, who universally do bang up jobs in their line of work and have helped me out of at least one pickle, I think it's pretty tacky to get into a stupid fight over a memorial dedicated to them. It's freaking Utah, for petes sake, which is barely stops short of being a theocracy as it is with all the fundamentalists there. Surely they can find something else to prove a point over. I'm sure there has got to be a statue of Joesph Smith pissing on a heathen somewhere in public that they can demand be taken down.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2005-12-02 01:40pm

Really, if you're going to get offended by Christian soldiers having crosses as memorials, you're a fucktard with too much time on your hands. It's not like they're forcing non-Christians to have crosses as headstones when alternatives exist.

Imperial Overlord · Post by **Imperial Overlord** » 2005-12-02 02:31pm

Lord Zentei wrote: (Though speaking at present, the idea of a huge pyramid or mausoleum with robotic mummy guards and ritual sacrifice as part of my bequest sounds appealing... )

Are you and NecronLord relatives?

Shroom Man 777 · Post by **Shroom Man 777** » 2005-12-02 02:32pm

Instead of suing, they could've kindly suggested that folks of other religions (or non at all) get headstones that match their religious beliefs.

Wyrm · Post by **Wyrm** » 2005-12-02 03:17pm

A spokesman for the Utah Highway Patrol said the crosses are an international sign of memorial and not just a religious symbol.

Since when? I can understand its common use in memorials, but when did it become an internationally recognized sign meaning "memorial"?

Lord Zentei · Post by **Lord Zentei** » 2005-12-02 03:25pm

Imperial Overlord wrote:
Lord Zentei wrote: (Though speaking at present, the idea of a huge pyramid or mausoleum with robotic mummy guards and ritual sacrifice as part of my bequest sounds appealing... )
Are you and NecronLord relatives?

Kindred spirits, perhaps.

Big Phil · Post by **Big Phil** » 2005-12-02 03:28pm

Are these fuckers even related to the cops, or are they just being generic assholes?

mingo · Post by **mingo** » 2005-12-02 04:38pm

Ever notice that the kind of atheist that does this is always the kind that is loud about what people that believe in something have done to offend them. I claimed atheism for many years, but I was just an anti Christian. I'm still not Christian, but now I do have faith. I'm also ready to accept that what Christians believe makes no less sense than what I do and let them go their way.

Shroom Man 777 · Post by **Shroom Man 777** » 2005-12-02 04:45pm

Christian belief makes no sense, plain and simple. But yes, these guys are being dicks, and giving us a bad image.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2005-12-02 04:59pm

Actually, the crosses shouldn't be there on the side of the road because they're a distraction to drivers and could lead to accidents.

This is why they are not allowed on Iowa highways.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2005-12-02 05:08pm

One thing that puzzles me. If you want to create a memorial for soldiers, why the fuck do you need to put it on the side of a road? Why not set aside a plot of dedicated land or something instead of using streets?

1123581321 · Post by **1123581321** » 2005-12-02 05:25pm

General Zod wrote:One thing that puzzles me. If you want to create a memorial for soldiers, why the fuck do you need to put it on the side of a road? Why not set aside a plot of dedicated land or something instead of using streets?

I think the crosses are for Utah State Police Officers or Highway Patrolmen, commonly refered to as troopers. The crosses are likely near where they were killed.

Metatwaddle · Post by **Metatwaddle** » 2005-12-02 06:39pm

I'm a bit ambivalent. The first thing I think is, "Get out of my non-religion. You're making my non-religion look fucking stupid." The second thing is, "But why did they automatically assume the troopers were Christian anyway?" And like Valdemar, I don't see what's wrong with generic headstones.

If I died in such a way, I technically wouldn't care either, as I'd be dead. But I still hope they'd get me a secular memorial rather than a cross.

Lusankya · Post by **Lusankya** » 2005-12-02 08:16pm

And here I am thinking that a cross is too generic a symbol to be intrinsically religious. It's just two sticks pasted together at right angles. Depsite being adopted by Christianity as a symbol, it's still just a shape.

Spacebeard · Post by **Spacebeard** » 2005-12-02 08:57pm

I'll be surprised if I don't see a Fox News anchor smarmily closing this story with "we report, you decide" in the near future. Reading this thread together with the thread on Bill O'Reilly's "secular progressive" conspiracy theory is telling; it's by promoting stories like this (or the "Las Cruces" story they were flogging a while back) while ignoring stories like these (in particular the first one) that demagogues like O'Reilly are able to get away with claiming that there is a widespread "anti-Christian bias" in mainstream American culture. I really wish the people responsible for these lawsuits would sit down and realize that all they are accomplishing is directly feeding more ammunition into the Mighty Wurlitzer.

As for this specific case, I'd like to know if the troopers or their families are given a choice in the matter. If they are entitled to choose between a symbol of their particular religion (if any), a non-religious symbol, or no symbol at all, then I don't see how this could constitute either an establishment of religion or a violation of any individual's freedom of religion, even if they are being paid for by taxpayer funds.

Vicious · Post by **Vicious** » 2005-12-02 09:53pm

Gah, bunch of intolerant fucking retards. I'm an Atheist, and my only problem with crosses being placed as memorials on the side of the road is that they can be a distraction. Yo, fucknuts in Utah: this is NOT a big deal. Stop making Atheists look bad, you stupid fucking idiots.

Oh, and I second the desire for robot-mummies guarding the Pyramid which houses my body, awaiting the day when I return as the rightful ruler of this world.

Futoque · Post by **Futoque** » 2005-12-03 01:53am

The two major local Utah papers (Salt Lake Tribune) http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_3271385 and (Deseret News) http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,635165645,00.html have a little more detail on this. There isn't much detail as to wheather this was brought by the local members of American Atheists or not.

Nova Andromeda · Post by **Nova Andromeda** » 2005-12-03 03:19am

Admiral Valdemar wrote:Really, if you're going to get offended by Christian soldiers having crosses as memorials, you're a fucktard with too much time on your hands. It's not like they're forcing non-Christians to have crosses as headstones when alternatives exist.

--Fuck you and your bigoted position. There isn't a chance in hell that minorities like atheists, satanists, wicans, etc. can plant there memorials all gov. property for war dead or any other reason. Even if they could it doesn't make is fair. Such displays should be restricted to private property, cemetaries, and other reasonable places instead of trying to find any and every excuse to graffiti gov. property with religious symbols. I'm tired of Christians constatly trying to find loopholes to turn this country into one big church.

Vicious · Post by **Vicious** » 2005-12-03 03:47am

Nova Andromeda wrote:
Admiral Valdemar wrote:Really, if you're going to get offended by Christian soldiers having crosses as memorials, you're a fucktard with too much time on your hands. It's not like they're forcing non-Christians to have crosses as headstones when alternatives exist.
--Fuck you and your bigoted position. There isn't a chance in hell that minorities like atheists, satanists, wicans, etc. can plant there memorials all gov. property for war dead or any other reason. Even if they could it doesn't make is fair. Such displays should be restricted to private property, cemetaries, and other reasonable places instead of trying to find any and every excuse to graffiti gov. property with religious symbols. I'm tired of Christians constatly trying to find loopholes to turn this country into one big church.

You might want to notice that this is the Utah Highway Patrol's initiative here before you run off and cry foul. They are a government agency, last I knew, and not some fundi-group. You might also want to ratchet back the Fundi-bashing just a bit and get your head out of your ass long enough to realise that what these folks are doing is to honor their comrades, not to "graffiti gov. property with religious symbols" as you so retardly put it. The second part is really the more important of the two: this is not a big deal, and attitudes like yours make atheists look like rabid hateful people who attack innocents for doing what anyone else would do: remember their loved ones.

Nove Andromeda wrote:There isn't a chance in hell that minorities like atheists, satanists, wicans, etc. can plant there memorials all gov. property for war dead or any other reason.

Prove this bullshit. Show me where it says that only Christians can place memorials along a roadside. Guess what? There is no law or ruling which says that non-Christians can't go out and set up a small memorial at a roadside. Hell, I see plenty of memorials in my area which are simply a wreathe, flag, or picture. Or would you call those Christian symbols?

What if they put up memorials consisting of the Star of David? Would you also cry foul over the Evil Jewish Conspiracy(TM) and their attempt to take over the worlds highways?

In short, go fuck yourself and stop making atheists look stupid, stupid.

Post by **Coyote** » 2005-12-03 08:12am

One thing I find odd about this is that the dominant religion in Utah is the Mormons, which permeate much of the Utah government last I heard, yet distinctly do not use the cross in any of their religious heraldry or ceremonies.

For years, our small Jewish community here in Boise used a Mormon church for Yom Kippur observance (the synagogue was too small to handle the once-a-year crowd) and it was for that very reason-- no crosses inside.

That said, I agree with what seems to be the overall opinion-- if the troopers memorialized were Christian then fine, but if they are not religious or of other religions they should have other options, especially if this is a taxpayer funded thing.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2005-12-03 08:26am

I think the argument the state police would use is that an unadorned white cross is almost universally recognized in this country as symbol for "somebody died here". I see these memorials alongside highways around here, too--usually a small cross and a few flowers at the spot where someone was killed in a car wreck.

I'm really not seeing the problem unless the troopers in question wouldn't have wanted a cross. This lawsuit is asinine and a public relations fiasco.

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