Power Rankings of Jedi and Sith

Xess · Post by **Xess** » 2005-12-01 10:50pm

I did I search but found nothing definitive. So here I am asking the fine denizens of SDN to help me put together a power ranking of famous Jedi/Sith from the movies and EU. Now I know some characters such as Revan and Malak are hard to quantify due to lack of information but it is my goal to do the best I can.

So here goes my preliminary listing, based off of my fairly limited knowledge of all the Jedi/Sith in the EU.

- Dark Empire Palpatine, fairly obvious that Wankantine would top the list
- Regular Palpatine/Exar Kun, I'm not sure of Exar Kun's actuall power but he seems to be on Palpy's level
- Yoda, Mace Windu, Marka Ragnos, Ajunta Pall, Tulak Hord, Freedon Nadd etc.
- Darth Vader, Anakin
- Obi-Wan
- Luke Skywalker, Revan (dark and light)
- Count Dooku, Darth Maul, Darth Malak, Jacen Solo
- Mara Jade

I really can't recall any other Jedi/Sith. So how about aditions and revisions to the list?

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-12-01 11:12pm

Establishing a blanket power ranking for Force users is quite difficult, due both to occasionally inconsistent portrayals of their abilities, and the various special skills and types of power many have. For example, Darth Nihilus of KOTOR 2 isn't a particularly powerful Sith in terms of combat, but his life-draining ability is one of the most powerful Force abilities ever exhibited. How would one rate him, or Palpatine's knack for Force mind-domination as compared to his fighting ability?

Xess · Post by **Xess** » 2005-12-01 11:25pm

Noble Ire wrote:Establishing a blanket power ranking for Force users is quite difficult, due both to occasionally inconsistent portrayals of their abilities, and the various special skills and types of power many have. For example, Darth Nihilus of KOTOR 2 isn't a particularly powerful Sith in terms of combat, but his life-draining ability is one of the most powerful Force abilities ever exhibited. How would one rate him, or Palpatine's knack for Force mind-domination as compared to his fighting ability?

Good questiions. I suppose you have to look for a median between special powers and combat.

So while Nihilus is powerful in that he can drain the life from worlds, he could be beaten in close combat by many Jedi with far less special abilites. Thus he would rank with with the higher ups like Obi-Wan but less than Palpatine who is a good fighter and has massive special powers.

I'm basically trying for a general impression of relative power at the moment. Once I get that down I'll go into a more in depth analysis taking into account different variables.

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2005-12-02 01:09am

Exar Kun (Followed by Ulik Quel Drome), should be near the top of the list (In physical form).
He's the one who defines the phrase "The power to destroy a SUN, is nothing compared to the power of the force".

Things Exar Kun did:
-Froze an entire room full of people, killed the speaker and cut down his old master, saying this into his face:"Go on to your higher plane, teacher. The galaxy is mine now."
-invented the Double bladed lightsaber
-destroyed Feedom Nadd's ghost
-stood in the middle of a Jedi planet and recruited jedi to become his dark jedi army without the jedi even realizing it.
-took thousands to jedi to "kill" him (He survived it)
-One of his ships could be used to supernova a sun when used by one of his apprentices
-killed numerous jedi masters

A note, the Jedi of this time were a dman sight more powerful than modern ones, Kun's master used a stick and went into a saber/stick lock with Kun (Although Kun managed to break it)

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2005-12-02 01:12am

The hardest part is to find out what Exar (and by that extension numerous other Sith lords of that era) did by his own power, and what he was using aided by various artifacts.

Numerous of his feats were things he had with the aid of some Dark side focal items.

Trogdor · Post by **Trogdor** » 2005-12-02 01:20am

As much as I hate to say it, Revan probably deserves to be a level lower on your list. In terms of combat prowress and Force powers, he was really just an above average Jedi, not an uberly above average Jedi. His strengths lay more in the ability to inspire people to follow him and join his cause, and his strategic and tactical brilliance (so far as I know, the only person to have surpassed Revan in this regard in Star Wars EU is Thawn, though my knowledge of the EU is not very vast).

Ar-Adunakhor · Post by **Ar-Adunakhor** » 2005-12-02 10:56am

I am unsure if Obi-Wan should truly be ranked a catagory above Luke. Perhaps I am missing some EU sources that really wanked him out, but as far as I can see Luke in the end became more powerful. Sure, during the trilogy he was nowhere near what we see Obi-Wan as being in the PT, but he was not very deep into his knowledge of the force. Depending on the writer and scene in some of the EU, we either get a whiny philosophical Luke or a badass one who slaughters anything that is around him. I personally feel the latter to be more accurate in determining his relative "power". I say compare them both at an equal level, instead of PT Obi-Wan to OT Luke.

As much as I hate to say it, Revan probably deserves to be a level lower on your list. In terms of combat prowress and Force powers, he was really just an above average Jedi, not an uberly above average Jedi. His strengths lay more in the ability to inspire people to follow him and join his cause, and his strategic and tactical brilliance (so far as I know, the only person to have surpassed Revan in this regard in Star Wars EU is Thawn, though my knowledge of the EU is not very vast).

Perhaps not an uberly above average Jedi, but certianly not a mere run-of-the-mill Jedi either. After all, he can exert his will over the Star Forge and not be consumed *or* dominated by it, as well as being described as quite powerful by quite a lot of Jedi who seem to know what they are talking about. Not only that, but after cutting down all of Malak's Dark Jedi conscripts, Malak's apprentice, and facing the Star Forge's uberdroids, he went on to defeat Malak, who had tapped into the power of the Star Forge and was using the power of those dead Jedi to heal himself. I think he, you know, might just be a step above Malak, though probably lower than the son of the Chosen One. I mean, his power *does* lie primarly in his charisma and command skill, after all. Which I think are superior to Thrawn, in truth. (easily defeating the Mandalorian war machine *and* the Republic, compared to losing to a fragile new government who is obviously inept? Revan wins)

Also, I am not too familiar with Jacen other than someone who exploits his character shield on a regular basis. Is he truly as powerful as Dooku?

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2005-12-02 11:13am

Also, I am not too familiar with Jacen other than someone who exploits his character shield on a regular basis. Is he truly as powerful as Dooku

Well, he can use the Dark side of the force as well as the "regular" force (He's the true master of the unifying force of the NJO), he showed the ability to metabolize any toxins and chemicals used by Omni the Yu'uzhan Vong force user, and he functioned very well (If not at Luke's level) in the strike team that took down Supreme overlord Shimra.
The "Unifier king" book also has him manipulating his brain patterns into whatever he felt like, and he was able to block out Luke's mind probes (I think, I'm not usre about the last point).

In short he was good and very varied/versatile but nowhere near Luke (Bad ass Slayer whuping version).

Xess · Post by **Xess** » 2005-12-02 12:16pm

Good points everyone. It has occured to me that it would be far easier to rank Force users baded on catagories first, then to build the overall list from those based on their rankings in multiple catagories.

So I have devised the catagories, based off of personal power, as follows:

1) Combat abilites
2) Mind-Altering Force abilites
3) Physical Force abilities (such as TK and lightning)
4) Precognitive Force abilites
5) Intellecutal abilites (such as strategy and deception)
6) Special abilites not otherwise listed including Force amplifying objects (Palpy's Force storms, Nihilius' life draining, Sion's immortality, Kun's supernova weapon)

So here I go, keep in mind I don't know enough to include every Force user

1) Combat abilites
- Exar-Kun (Ragnos, Nadd, Pall, Hord, Sagow ?)
- Palpatine, Luke Skywalker at peak, Anakin/Vader at peak
- Yoda, Count Dooku at peak
- Mace Windu
- Count Dooku c. ROTS, Obi-Wan
- Darth Maul, Revan(DS&LS), Malak, Qui-Gon

2) Mind-Altering Force abilites
- Palpatine (Lusankya incident, hiding his presence from the most powerfull Jedi masters)
- Dark Side Revan (Rakata language implantation)
- Luke Skywalker (Apparently has powerfull mindprobes), Jacen (Mind wiping and the like)
- Various Jedi who use the Mind-Trick

3) Physical Force abilites
- Possible ancient Sith such as Kun and others
- Palpatine
- Yoda
- Count Dooku

4) Precognitive Force abilites
- Palpatine
- Yoda
- Luke Skywalker, Mace Windu
- Obi-Wan

5) Intellectual abilites
- Palpatine, Revan
- Other force users

6) Special Powers
- Exar-Kun (supernova), Darth Nihilus(Life drain), Palpatine(Force Storms, "Spirit" transfer, Life-drain)
- Darth Sion (Immortality)
- Darth Revan/Darth Malak (StarForge)

Now since I lack a lot of information on many Jedi/Sith this is a very incomplete list. So please help fill in the blanks and make it more accurate.

drachefly · Post by **drachefly** » 2005-12-02 12:28pm

IIRC, in straight combat, Windu beat Palpatine, not vice versa. Unless it was all a show...

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2005-12-02 12:47pm

drachefly wrote:IIRC, in straight combat, Windu beat Palpatine, not vice versa. Unless it was all a show...

The dvd has Lucas saying that Mace beat Palpatine (As I understand, I don't have the dvd).
Kyle Katarn from the EU should be ranked almost as high as Luke, he is the weaponsmaster of the order (Like Mace was) and is a master of a large amount of non force attacks (Game wise he's even invented a force using street brawl MA style)
Also, I think the fatc that the Exile and Revan slaughtered their way through lesser Sith (Who were not mere apprentices) gives them pretty high combat feats?
(Although EU Luke fought and creamed two of the Vong Uber Jedi Killing "Slayers" at the same timee before fighting Supreme overlord Shimra)

Xess · Post by **Xess** » 2005-12-02 05:33pm

drachefly wrote:IIRC, in straight combat, Windu beat Palpatine, not vice versa. Unless it was all a show...

I remember hearing that the only people who could beat Windu were Yoda and Count Dooku. But I may be mistaken so here I go again.

1) Combat abilites
- Exar-Kun (Ragnos, Nadd, Pall, Hord, Sagow ?)
- Palpatine, Luke Skywalker at peak, Anakin/Vader at peak, Mace Windu
- Yoda, Count Dooku at peak, Katarn, Revan, The Exile
- Count Dooku c. ROTS, Obi-Wan, Darth Malak
- Darth Maul, Qui-Gon

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2005-12-02 05:48pm

As a point from the RotJ novel and the book Shadow of the Empire, Vader considers that Luke is the most powerfull Jedi ever and the novel mentions that Palpy is afraid of Luke

Xess · Post by **Xess** » 2005-12-02 06:01pm

Stuart Mackey wrote:As a point from the RotJ novel and the book Shadow of the Empire, Vader considers that Luke is the most powerfull Jedi ever and the novel mentions that Palpy is afraid of Luke

Indeed, I'm just not sure if Luke ever actually passes Palpy in power. I need more information.

Eframepilot · Post by **Eframepilot** » 2005-12-02 06:13pm

Xess wrote:
Stuart Mackey wrote:As a point from the RotJ novel and the book Shadow of the Empire, Vader considers that Luke is the most powerfull Jedi ever and the novel mentions that Palpy is afraid of Luke
Indeed, I'm just not sure if Luke ever actually passes Palpy in power. I need more information.

Luke actually beat Wankatine in saber combat at the end of Dark Empire, and with Leia's help turned Palpatine's own Force Storm against him. I would rate Luke as having surpassed the movies' Darth Sidious by then.

Xess · Post by **Xess** » 2005-12-02 06:22pm

Eframepilot wrote:Luke actually beat Wankatine in saber combat at the end of Dark Empire, and with Leia's help turned Palpatine's own Force Storm against him. I would rate Luke as having surpassed the movies' Darth Sidious by then.

Interesting. I'll have to revise my list.

1) Combat abilites
- Exar-Kun (Ragnos, Nadd, Pall, Hord, Sagow ?), Luke Skywalker at peak
- Palpatine, Luke Skywalker, Anakin/Vader at peak, Mace Windu
- Yoda, Count Dooku at peak, Katarn, Revan, The Exile
- Count Dooku c. ROTS, Obi-Wan, Darth Malak
- Darth Maul, Qui-Gon

Xess · Post by **Xess** » 2005-12-03 02:03pm

I'm looking for information on the Physical Force abilites now. Anybody have any usefull tidbits?

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-12-03 02:07pm

Xess wrote:I'm looking for information on the Physical Force abilites now. Anybody have any usefull tidbits?

Didn't Luke Skywalker in DE destroy a capital ship?
And there is the movement of Pellaeon's fleet in Darksaber, but that doesn't really count, since it was done by the collective efforts of a dozen or so knights and padawans in a Force-amplifying chamber.

Ar-Adunakhor · Post by **Ar-Adunakhor** » 2005-12-03 05:09pm

In the YV series Luke stopped some Vong tanks by pushing their singularity shield thingies back into themselves, if I am not mistaken. Not sure how many, but quite a few at once I beleive.

Also, in the ROTS novel Obi-Wan bent Grevious's durasteel arm with his bear hands due to the force. Not sure if that was exactly what you were looking for, but it is certianly "physical".

Just what are you looking for, by the way? Any feat by any Jedi, or just the feats of the ones you listed? If it is the former, Kyp Durron did some impressive things with the force too, such as yanking the Sun Wanker out of Yavin and using that wicked sick Ebony Lightning.

Xess · Post by **Xess** » 2005-12-03 06:08pm

Ar-Adunakhor wrote:In the YV series Luke stopped some Vong tanks by pushing their singularity shield thingies back into themselves, if I am not mistaken. Not sure how many, but quite a few at once I beleive.

Also, in the ROTS novel Obi-Wan bent Grevious's durasteel arm with his bear hands due to the force. Not sure if that was exactly what you were looking for, but it is certianly "physical".

Just what are you looking for, by the way? Any feat by any Jedi, or just the feats of the ones you listed? If it is the former, Kyp Durron did some impressive things with the force too, such as yanking the Sun Wanker out of Yavin and using that wicked sick Ebony Lightning.

Any Jedi is good, but I am focusing on the more famous ones.

3) Physical Force abilities
- Ancient Sith Lords, Luke Skywalker
- Palpatine, Kyp Durron
- Yoda, Count Dooku, Anakin/Vader
- Obi-Wan