Atheists Sue Over Road Crosses For Troopers Killed

[Col. Crackpot]

I think the argument the state police would use is that an unadorned white cross is almost universally recognized in this country as symbol for "somebody died here". I see these memorials alongside highways around here, too--usually a small cross and a few flowers at the spot where someone was killed in a car wreck.

I'm really not seeing the problem unless the troopers in question wouldn't have wanted a cross. This lawsuit is asinine and a public relations fiasco.

damn right it is! Heyy asshats, lets go out and perpetuate the stereotype that all atheists are fundamentalist anti-theist bully assholes.

[Knife]

One thing I find odd about this is that the dominant religion in Utah is the Mormons, which permeate much of the Utah government last I heard, yet distinctly do not use the cross in any of their religious heraldry or ceremonies.

For years, our small Jewish community here in Boise used a Mormon church for Yom Kippur observance (the synagogue was too small to handle the once-a-year crowd) and it was for that very reason-- no crosses inside.

That said, I agree with what seems to be the overall opinion-- if the troopers memorialized were Christian then fine, but if they are not religious or of other religions they should have other options, especially if this is a taxpayer funded thing.

I wasn't allowed to put 'nothing' on my dogtags in the military. I was told to put 'no preference' instead. While it is a trivial case, the principle is the same. They just 'think' everyone is the same as they are.

[Nova Andromeda]

Really, if you're going to get offended by Christian soldiers having crosses as memorials, you're a fucktard with too much time on your hands. It's not like they're forcing non-Christians to have crosses as headstones when alternatives exist.

--Fuck you and your bigoted position. There isn't a chance in hell that minorities like atheists, satanists, wicans, etc. can plant there memorials all gov. property for war dead or any other reason. Even if they could it doesn't make is fair. Such displays should be restricted to private property, cemetaries, and other reasonable places instead of trying to find any and every excuse to graffiti gov. property with religious symbols. I'm tired of Christians constatly trying to find loopholes to turn this country into one big church.

You might want to notice that this is the Utah Highway Patrol's initiative here before you run off and cry foul. They are a government agency, last I knew, and not some fundi-group.

Excuse me? The fact that the gov. is doing this makes it even worse. Care to defend the gov. endorsement of religion next?

You might also want to ratchet back the Fundi-bashing just a bit and get your head out of your ass long enough to realise that what these folks are doing is to honor their comrades, not to "graffiti gov. property with religious symbols" as you so retardly put it.

You can take you appolgist bullshit, victim mentality, bigoted attitude and go fuck yourself. If they want to honor only their friends then they can do it without gov. help. If they want to honor everyone then they can do it without spitting on the sacrifices of people who don't want to be memorialize with crosses.

The second part is really the more important of the two: this is not a big deal,

Yeah, just like God in the pledge "isn't a big deal."

and attitudes like yours make atheists look like rabid hateful people who attack innocents for doing what anyone else would do: remember their loved ones.

Oh poor baby, Christians a such victims in the U.S. and suffer so horribly at the hands of those damned atheists who refuse to just sit around and take it. Perhaps there wouldn't be problem in the first place if those "innocents" considered the feelings of their fellow citizens in the first place.

There isn't a chance in hell that minorities like atheists, satanists, wicans, etc. can plant there memorials all gov. property for war dead or any other reason.

Prove this bullshit. Show me where it says that only Christians can place memorials along a roadside. Guess what? There is no law or ruling which says that non-Christians can't go out and set up a small memorial at a roadside.

Perhaps you should wake up and smell all the bullshit you're spewing. Many christians are constantly bitching about how secular liberals are destroying things like Christmas when they say things happy holidays instead of merry Christmas. It isn't just complaints either; they are using it as a political issue and threatening company's bottom lines if they don't fall in line.

Hell, I see plenty of memorials in my area which are simply a wreathe, flag, or picture. Or would you call those Christian symbols?

So clearly flowers, wreathes, flags, pictures, etc. are prominent religious symbols ? BTW, you might want to note that messing w/ gov. property is criminal offense without permission and last time I checked it was pretty much impossible to get permission for satanic symbols.

[Nova Andromeda]

I think the argument the state police would use is that an unadorned white cross is almost universally recognized in this country as symbol for "somebody died here".

--It's a multipurpose symbol at best and seeing it doens't mean "somebody died here" unless it is in the context of things like flowers, a tree, a ribbon, etc. In fact, you don't need the cross at all (or any written message) to make it clear that "somebody died here." Floweres, a tree, a picture, and ribbon would be entirely sufficient.

I'm really not seeing the problem unless the troopers in question wouldn't have wanted a cross.

-Gov. endorsed memorials should be secular in nature and not server a dual purpose of religious endorsement.

This lawsuit is asinine and a public relations fiasco.

-It's only public relations fiasco because the majority of americans are intolerant of atheists.

[AniThyng]

Last time I checked there weren't any families of deceased Utah State Troopers desiring to be memorialised with satanic symbols instead of crosses, so what's the point of this foaming at the mouth ranting?

[Nova Andromeda]

... a public relations fiasco.

damn right it is! Heyy asshats, lets go out and perpetuate the stereotype that all atheists are fundamentalist anti-theist bully assholes.

-People like you make things considerably worse with statements like this every time an atheist dares to demand fair play. Last time I checked only the French were able to win a war after surrendering.

[Nova Andromeda]

Last time I checked there weren't any families of deceased Utah State Troopers desiring to be memorialised with satanic symbols instead of crosses, so what's the point ...

--Then let me spell it out for you: the memorials aren't secular, they are gov. endorsed, and there is clear religious test applied to what is an acceptable memorial.

[Lusankya]

In Australia at crash sites, the government puts up sticks: red with a white line on them for each injury and black with a white cross on them for each fatality. Are the crosses then being used as a religious symbol, or are they simply being used as a sign that someone died there?

[Col. Crackpot]

... a public relations fiasco.

damn right it is! Heyy asshats, lets go out and perpetuate the stereotype that all atheists are fundamentalist anti-theist bully assholes.

-People like you make things considerably worse with statements like this every time an atheist dares to demand fair play. Last time I checked only the French were able to win a war after surrendering.

hey fuckwit, you don't win over hearts and minds be shitting on people's memorials.

[Spacebeard]

This lawsuit is asinine and a public relations fiasco.

-It's only public relations fiasco because the majority of americans are intolerant of atheists.

I would disagree.

Imagine if Jewish troopers were being memorialized with a Star of David marker and a Christian group was suing to have them changed into crosses or a nondenominational symbol. I think the public perception of the case would be much the same.

The reason why this is a public relations fiasco is because of they are essentially pissing on the memories of fallen police officers to serve a political agenda. If, on the other hand, there were a non-Christian officer who was memorialized with a cross against the will of his family, they would have a much better case in the "court of public opinion", because it would be their opponents who were perceived as dishonoring the dead.

[Broomstick]

Fact is, MOST people in the US are Christian of one stripe or another. So if you do this sort of roadside memorial, the default marker is going to be a cross.

This issue came up a few years ago in my area with a private citizen setting up roadside markers. He was a Fundie, and of course used crosses. A couple of relatives of a Jewish deceased approached him and said "Hey, the person who died here was Jewish - we don't want a cross, can you do a Star of David?"

Yeah, he could do a Star of David, and did so. He's also stated he'll do whatever marker the family would prefer IF they tell him - but since the vast majority in the area are Christians he'll keep defaulting to the cross when he doesn't know simply because that is the faith any randomly selected person in the area is most likely to have.

Seems a reasonable compromise to me, especially since it was settled without having to drag it into court.

Likewise, in Utah, a person is also most likely to be some stripe of "Chrisitan" and a cross is a reasonable default. Now, did anyone ask about alternatives first, or did they just proceed to lawsuit? If an alternative was requested and turned down THEN I could see taking it to court, but the courts should not be the first resort.

[Lord Poe]

damn right it is! Heyy asshats, lets go out and perpetuate the stereotype that all atheists are fundamentalist anti-theist bully assholes.

-People like you make things considerably worse with statements like this every time an atheist dares to demand fair play. Last time I checked only the French were able to win a war after surrendering.

Oh for fuck's sake. Do atheists need emancipating now?

I couldn't give a rat's ass if my money says "in god we trust" or "in chia pets we trust", as long as it spends the same. A religious symbol is offensive to someone that cares about religious symbols. I must be very different from atheists today. I couldn't give a fuck if they put a cross over my grave or a bike rack whn they plant me.

[Vicious]

--Fuck you and your bigoted position. There isn't a chance in hell that minorities like atheists, satanists, wicans, etc. can plant there memorials all gov. property for war dead or any other reason. Even if they could it doesn't make is fair. Such displays should be restricted to private property, cemetaries, and other reasonable places instead of trying to find any and every excuse to graffiti gov. property with religious symbols. I'm tired of Christians constatly trying to find loopholes to turn this country into one big church.

You might want to notice that this is the Utah Highway Patrol's initiative here before you run off and cry foul. They are a government agency, last I knew, and not some fundi-group.

Excuse me? The fact that the gov. is doing this makes it even worse. Care to defend the gov. endorsement of religion next?

Nice strawman. I'm defending the government's right to put memorials on it's own property. If the troopers killed were christian, then the police-force, with the deceased's family, can go stick a goddamned cross in the ground. Or are you going to now demand that all the cemetaries for military dead which use little white crosses be demolished? I'm also gonna side with RedImperator in saying that an unadorned cross is pretty much a universal symbol for "memorial". Whether you see it that way is fucking irrelevant.

You might also want to ratchet back the Fundi-bashing just a bit and get your head out of your ass long enough to realise that what these folks are doing is to honor their comrades, not to "graffiti gov. property with religious symbols" as you so retardly put it.

You can take you appolgist bullshit, victim mentality, bigoted attitude and go fuck yourself. If they want to honor only their friends then they can do it without gov. help. If they want to honor everyone then they can do it without spitting on the sacrifices of people who don't want to be memorialize with crosses.

So, I guess you oppose Arlington National Cemetary, right? Because, y'know, they use little white crosses on government property for soldiers killed in action.
Show me where exatly it says that they were forcing everyone to use crosses, even against the deceased's relatives will? Otherwise, shut the fuck up. Also, show me how what you're saying doesn't make you sound like an intolerant fuckwit who wants to force everyone else to conform to his particular view point.

The second part is really the more important of the two: this is not a big deal,

Yeah, just like God in the pledge "isn't a big deal."

Quite frankly, it isn't a goddamned big deal. Yeah, I don't like it and won't say it if I have to say the Pledge, but it is not worth suing over and making atheists look like rabid mongrels in the process. Learn to pick your battles, and not fight over every single fucking scrap.

and attitudes like yours make atheists look like rabid hateful people who attack innocents for doing what anyone else would do: remember their loved ones.

Oh poor baby, Christians a such victims in the U.S. and suffer so horribly at the hands of those damned atheists who refuse to just sit around and take it. Perhaps there wouldn't be problem in the first place if those "innocents" considered the feelings of their fellow citizens in the first place.

Let me reverse that last sentence right back at you, asshole. You're trying to prevent people from commemorating their loved ones in a certain way that means something to them. Why don't you consider their feelings, hmm? There wouldn't be a problem if rabid assholes would realise that attacking religion at every turn, even over worthless fucking points, is extremely counter-productive and just makes them and in turn all reasonable atheists look bad.

There isn't a chance in hell that minorities like atheists, satanists, wicans, etc. can plant there memorials all gov. property for war dead or any other reason.

Prove this bullshit. Show me where it says that only Christians can place memorials along a roadside. Guess what? There is no law or ruling which says that non-Christians can't go out and set up a small memorial at a roadside.

Perhaps you should wake up and smell all the bullshit you're spewing. Many christians are constantly bitching about how secular liberals are destroying things like Christmas when they say things happy holidays instead of merry Christmas. It isn't just complaints either; they are using it as a political issue and threatening company's bottom lines if they don't fall in line.

Nice red herring. I asked for evidence, fuckwad. All you give me is "wah wah, the mean christians are persecuting the good companies!".

Hell, I see plenty of memorials in my area which are simply a wreathe, flag, or picture. Or would you call those Christian symbols?

So clearly flowers, wreathes, flags, pictures, etc. are prominent religious symbols ? BTW, you might want to note that messing w/ gov. property is criminal offense without permission and last time I checked it was pretty much impossible to get permission for satanic symbols.

Ah, yes, that would explain why several of the memorials are several years old ... oh, wait, it wouldn't. Fucktard. The cops probably don't care, or if anything feel sympathy. It's simply not worth it to go around making people remove their shrines when it frankly doesn't hurt anyone and doesn't cause any problems. Your last point: was that the issue? I thought it was that

There isn't a chance in hell that minorities like atheists, satanists, wicans

couldn't get permission to plant memorials. I still see no evidence of this.
The comment was in mockery of you, but then you probably don't have a sense of humor, do you?

Oh, and incase it's escaped your feeble brain, I'm an atheist. Only I don't go around mindlessly beating christians up for wearing Cross pins or going to church.

[Vicious]

I think the argument the state police would use is that an unadorned white cross is almost universally recognized in this country as symbol for "somebody died here".

--It's a multipurpose symbol at best and seeing it doens't mean "somebody died here" unless it is in the context of things like flowers, a tree, a ribbon, etc. In fact, you don't need the cross at all (or any written message) to make it clear that "somebody died here." Floweres, a tree, a picture, and ribbon would be entirely sufficient.

And an unadorned cross is a more obvious symbol. Most peoplse, if they see a cross sitting at the roadside, will think "someone died there". Again, your personal viewpoint doesn't count for shit, because the rest of the country is more than enough to outweight it.

I'm really not seeing the problem unless the troopers in question wouldn't have wanted a cross.

-Gov. endorsed memorials should be secular in nature and not server a dual purpose of religious endorsement.

And do you have proof of this "dual purpose" or are you just talking out of your ass again?

This lawsuit is asinine and a public relations fiasco.

-It's only public relations fiasco because the majority of americans are intolerant of atheists.

No, it's a fiasco because atheists are rabidly attacking innocent people for commemorating their loved ones. It has nothing to do with intolerance of atheists, but rather a very vocal minority of atheists and their utter intolerance of anyone else.

[Vicious]

Don't know how I missed this one.

Last time I checked there weren't any families of deceased Utah State Troopers desiring to be memorialised with satanic symbols instead of crosses, so what's the point ...

--Then let me spell it out for you: the memorials aren't secular, they are gov. endorsed, and there is clear religious test applied to what is an acceptable memorial.

Let me spell it out to you. Provide fucking evidence of this "clear religious test" or shut the fuck up. A cross has become an essentially secular memorial in today's society. Or does the fact that the cross predates Christianity by thousands of years not matter to your ignorant pea-brain? The fact that you don't like it does not refute that, you arrogant fuckwit.