The crucial error on which this site seems to be based...

[Ghost Rider]

Okay for your second one dumbshit...

READ

THE

GODDAMN

WEBSITE

He states the shield calcs of a goddamn Galaxy class and the Turbolaser power of a fucking Medium Turbolaser on a 20 year old transport...all of which are LEGITIMATE

If you're not going to take the time to read the site...fuck off troll.

[Triforcer]

Did you even see the arguments of that the Federation at the Height of their military build up but no casualties...I guess fucking not

How many times do I have to fucking say this...although I did give a little opinion on it in the last post, the main point here is NOT whether the Remnant would beat the Feds. The point is that if you are claiming the two sides are fighting AS THEY ARE (which uphold's Mr. Wong's 50,000 years rebuttal) then you have to use the Remnant. If you decide that its ok to bounce around in time, then the 50,000 years argument from Trekkies IS valid. You cannot have it both ways.

And would it matter dumb shit given a 20 year old goddamn transport could destroy the finest warship on the Federation side with one shot from it's medium turbolaser?

See above.

He does dumbshit...read more.

From the way Mr. Wong tore up those kids in the email section, I honestly thought one of his flunkies could get at least to their third post without desperately resorting to insults. Guess not.

Then let's use a Empire 2 billion years in the future where they make the Culture look like pussies with BB-guns...but then we would have calcs to back up either side now would we dumbass?

I don't WANT to use an Empire that has no basis in continuity like you just described. THATS THE FUCKING POINT. Thats what this site does, and it is illogical.

You can compare the Empire at its height to the Fed at its height. But if you refuse to do Fed v. Remnant, you can't call the Trekkies on bullshit with the 50k argument because you are playing fast and loose with time too.

[Darth Wong]

I don't know how many times I have to repeat this, but here goes: I agree that the Empire at its height could own the Federation. But chronologically, from what we know about the "current" eras of both universes, you are cross-timing. You are comparing the "current" Federation with the "past" Empire of the SW galaxy. If you just want to say "I am comparing them when they are both at their height", then say it and I won't have any problems.

The "future Empire" is simply a plot device to allow comparison of Imp tech to Fed tech. Is that so difficult for your tiny mind to grasp?

If you are comparing the current Fed to a pre-ROTJ Empire, say that SOMEWHERE on this site.

I'm comparing Imp tech to Fed tech. Precise points in timelines do not interest me. People can figure out what pieces they want to use for any particular point in the timeline.

Say that your intel reports and industrial assessments that come from your reborn Empire perspective should have a magic psychic logical leap performed on them to be about Palpatine's Empire. I wouldn't use your fan fiction to counter your arguments if YOU didn't use it IN your arguments.

Strawman. I challenged you to provide an example of me relying upon the scenario for my arguments. You chose to ignore that challenge and repeat the unsupported claim that I do this throughout my site.

Concession accepted.

But if you do those things, you cannot criticize Trekkies for bouncing around to the time of the T'kon Empire or 50,000 years in the future to find the tech level to fight you. When you bounce around in time to find your optimum position, why can't they?

They can bounce around all they like, as long as they stay within the timeline of the shows and movies. All I'm saying is that they are restricted to somewhere within the timeline; I don't give a damn about what exact point they choose. Hell, if they want to mix TOS ships and TNG ships, that's fine too. But they can't go making up tech or assuming vast advancements because of the supposed timelag (particularly when Star Wars takes place "a long time ago" and the timelag would HURT Trek). You are trying to argue that ambiguity about postioning within a timeline is just like a license to go OUTSIDE of that timeline, which is total bullshit.

[Ghost Rider]

Just because the site doesn't maintain YOUR personal sense of fair fight obviously it has no basis and is something not to be considered.

As for the language like the saying if the shoe fits...

Anymore, or is that all?

[Triforcer]

Okay for your second one dumbshit...

READ

THE

GODDAMN

WEBSITE

He states the shield calcs of a goddamn Galaxy class and the Turbolaser power of a fucking Medium Turbolaser on a 20 year old transport...all of which are LEGITIMATE

If you're not going to take the time to read the site...fuck off troll.

The Down Syndrome is strong in this one. Guess what, fuckface? If I have an arsenal of nuclear weapons that can let me destroy the earth with one press of a button, but I make the MORAL choice to never ever use it, then the earth doesn't automatically cease to exist just because the potential to do it does. Have you ever read anything about Pellaeon and the new philosophy of the Remnant AT ALL?

[Darth Wong]

The Down Syndrome is strong in this one. Guess what, fuckface? If I have an arsenal of nuclear weapons that can let me destroy the earth with one press of a button, but I make the MORAL choice to never ever use it, then the earth doesn't automatically cease to exist just because the potential to do it does. Have you ever read anything about Pellaeon and the new philosophy of the Remnant AT ALL?

Hey dumb-ass, the site asks if a reborn Empire could crush the Federation. It does not ask if it would choose to, assuming Pallaeon leads it. You are answering the wrong question, and making a complete ass out of ourself in the process.

[Ghost Rider]

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH...it's nice to see you resorting to a bullshit tangent and yet not actualy doing a single fucking piece of retorting against the fact that Wong and Saxton and many others have shown the Federation would fall under the Empire.

Good Tangent with you pointless Pellaon...I mean you saying that he wouldn't obviously is fact, now isn't it?

[Lord Pounder]

Another fucking troll who can't see reason when it's in from of him IN BIG RED LETTERS. i guess watching modern Trek does kill brain cells.

[Knife]

Please, Mr. Wongs site and his reborn Empire, serve as an editorial device he uses as a bases for his analytical disscussion of the SW universe and how it would fair against the ST universe. One tends to have a pretense to start such research, much like you found his site as a pretense to start an argument over it.

Weather or not a Reborn Empire or an Imperial Remmenant goes up against the Federation, the science and the mathmatics of the two civilizations will still be the same. A 200GT turbolasere is still 200GT's weather it is mounted on an Remmenant stardestroyer or a Reborn Imperial stardestroyer.

Your argument is fluff, and no substance. Your want to argue the pretext in which Mr. Wong used to start his comparison of the two cultures and military, and have no interest to argue the comparison itself.

Fluff? Mr. Wong wouldn't answer this, so perhaps you would have. Please tell me how your totally unsupported argument that the Remnant would easily beat the Federation is at all supportable.

1. Pellaeon has shown his willingness to make peace with the Republic. He is not a warmonger, so the premise that he would even attack at all is suspect.

2. Lets go with a conservative estimate and say that the Remnant still has 150 Star Destroyers. How make can they spare when they are in a fight trying to stave off EXTINCTION at the hands of the Vong? How much resources would Pellaeon spare on attacking a galaxy of largely unknowns while gravitic anomalies are squeezing Munnilinnst or Bastion in half?

3. The Empire is one one-thousandth the size it was. Anyone who thinks, just in general, that it would be just as easy for the Remnant to conquer the Feds (and allies) as the Empire is smoking crack, plain and simple.

Basically I've heard two arguments today...

1. The Remnant would conquer the Feds just as easily as the Empire, even in the middle of their own fight for their lives! I don't have to prove this because if someone determines the right answer to a math problem is 1, and I take 5-3 and get 1, then the process really doesn't matter!

2. You are attacking my fan fiction! That has no bearing on my arguments, even when I argue that the Feds and the Empire should be compared AS THEY ARE!!

Neither is overly convincing.

EEERRRG, have you stopped to think that Mr. Wongs site has been up for years. Have you stopped to think that Mr. Wongs site was created before the writters of the NJO created the Vong and the events that lead up to what you would call the preasent in the SW universe.

Now I have not read the NJO so I don't know the ins and outs of the political status of the SW galaxy at that point. The point still remains that a ISD with a small taskforce of support ships are enough to not only set up a beach head in the ST galaxy, but start a serious campaign on there own. The numbers and calc. do not change with the political climate, 200GT's is 200GT's no matter who is in charge.

[Triforcer]

I'm comparing Imp tech to Fed tech. Precise points in timelines do not interest me. People can figure out what pieces they want to use for any particular point in the timeline.

Ok, I pick the window where Riker, a Federation officer, had the full powers of the Q. Since timelines mean nothing to you, by all means send that entire fleet screaming out of the wormhole and we'll see who adminsters the assraping.

Concession accepted.

And since timelines mean nothing to you, revise your 50,000 year argument to explain that you aren't really pitting the Feds v. the Empire "as they are" (which would be the Remnant) but you actually mean "at their relative heights of military technology". Everyone may not be as psychic as you wish in interpreting "as they are" as "Combining all the best technology they've ever had from any time anywhere into one grand tapestry".

[Colonel Olrik]

2. Lets go with a conservative estimate and say that the Remnant still has 150 Star Destroyers. How make can they spare when they are in a fight trying to stave off EXTINCTION at the hands of the Vong? How much resources would Pellaeon spare on attacking a galaxy of largely unknowns while gravitic anomalies are squeezing Munnilinnst or Bastion in half?

Ask someone who, unlike you, actually knows something about science and math. A single stardestroyer has power far in excess than all starfleet. Do you want to challenge that claim? Go ahead, try me.

Basically I've heard two arguments today...

1. The Remnant would conquer the Feds just as easily as the Empire, even in the middle of their own fight for their lives! I don't have to prove this because if someone determines the right answer to a math problem is 1, and I take 5-3 and get 1, then the process really doesn't matter!

Learn some physics. Learn about the meaning of raw power. The power mismatch of the two factions is too great.

The Portuguese and Spaniards conquered South America with a few hundred men. The result would be exactly the same if they went with their entire armies.

The technological diffence between the Federation and the Empire is far greater.

[Knife]

Because you insignificant fucktard, he wants to do a Imperial v Federation not an Rebellion or New Republic v Federation. And if this is the only argument you have for the VS, its a small and petty one.

[Triforcer]

Hey dumb-ass, the site asks if a reborn Empire could crush the Federation. It does not ask if it would choose to,

Current Astro-Political Climate
The current political climate has recently stabilized under a new totalitarian regime. A New Republic was formed after a series of destructive civil wars which followed Palpatine's death, but with only one Jedi Knight and a handful of semi-trained acolytes, it rapidly fell prey to the same corruption, regional disputes, and centrifugal tendencies that brought down the Old Republic. When the New Republic was threatened by new external and internal threats, it was almost inevitable that the government would return to a more centralized, authoritarian model28.

Our intelligence data is extremely sketchy at this point, but it would appear that this authoritarian government eventually became a new Empire, and that it swiftly and ruthlessly dealt with the aforementioned threats. However, it has been said that "an empire founded by war must maintain itself by war"29, and while it is indeed possible for an authoritarian empire to remain stable for decades or even centuries (eg- the Roman empire, or the Chinese dynasties), this task is made much simpler if its leaders can use an external threat to distract the population from internal problems. This should come as no surprise to Federation societal planners, since the maintenance of our own collectivist ideology and high level of militarization has always been facilitated by the existence of external threats, most notably the "cold wars" with the Klingon and Romulan Empires, not to mention armed conflicts with the Cardassians and more recently, the Borg and the Dominion.

Unfortunately, it would appear that we are being used as that external threat. Therefore, since Imperial aggression seems to be a domestic political imperative, we see little or no chance for a peaceful resolution through diplomatic negotiation.

Concession accepted once again.

[Ghost Rider]

I see dumbshit has decided not to compare tech and just go with faulty logic.

I chose a time when the Emipre can kills anything and they can make the Cultrue look dumb...thank you come again.

[Ghost Rider]

Wow

Can he get any dumber...

will he be a new record for Village Idiot?!

[Soontir C'boath]

Hey dumb-ass, the site asks if a reborn Empire could crush the Federation. It does not ask if it would choose to,

Current Astro-Political Climate
The current political climate has recently stabilized under a new totalitarian regime. A New Republic was formed after a series of destructive civil wars which followed Palpatine's death, but with only one Jedi Knight and a handful of semi-trained acolytes, it rapidly fell prey to the same corruption, regional disputes, and centrifugal tendencies that brought down the Old Republic. When the New Republic was threatened by new external and internal threats, it was almost inevitable that the government would return to a more centralized, authoritarian model28.

Our intelligence data is extremely sketchy at this point, but it would appear that this authoritarian government eventually became a new Empire, and that it swiftly and ruthlessly dealt with the aforementioned threats. However, it has been said that "an empire founded by war must maintain itself by war"29, and while it is indeed possible for an authoritarian empire to remain stable for decades or even centuries (eg- the Roman empire, or the Chinese dynasties), this task is made much simpler if its leaders can use an external threat to distract the population from internal problems. This should come as no surprise to Federation societal planners, since the maintenance of our own collectivist ideology and high level of militarization has always been facilitated by the existence of external threats, most notably the "cold wars" with the Klingon and Romulan Empires, not to mention armed conflicts with the Cardassians and more recently, the Borg and the Dominion.

Unfortunately, it would appear that we are being used as that external threat. Therefore, since Imperial aggression seems to be a domestic political imperative, we see little or no chance for a peaceful resolution through diplomatic negotiation.

Concession accepted once again.

And???!!!! WHAT'S YOUR FUCKEN POINT?

[Triforcer]

And???!!!! WHAT'S YOUR FUCKEN POINT?

The point is that Mr. Wong claimed this site never discusses if the Empire would CHOOSE to attack the Federation, which is clearly a lie. Accordingly, since he does address this, it is relevant to be addressed concerning Pelleaon...who would clearly not choose to attack while under the Vong threat.

[Colonel Olrik]

Ok, I pick the window where Riker, a Federation officer, had the full powers of the Q. Since timelines mean nothing to you, by all means send that entire fleet screaming out of the wormhole and we'll see who adminsters the assraping.

Concession accepted.

You're retarded.

What does the ubber power of Q have to do with Federation Vs Empire Technology? Why do you assume Q would help the Federation, anyway?

[Knife]

Ok Triforcer, your dancing around the subject with a "what the definition of is, is" argument. "Is" in this case translates into 200gigatons for a medium turbolaser, up against megaton level weapons of an opponent. Who gives a shit what the name of the guy in charge is, how are the Feds going to resist this firepower. Kirk, Picard, Kim, or Captain Marvelous can't stand up to the firepower of that magnitude. The 200GT is a number off of a 20 year old assualt transport in relation to ANH, and a 40 year old assualt transport in relation to NJO.

Quit dancing and face the problem, Russian AAA and Air power, not to mention Naval power were not directly challenged durring the cold war, but were put up against US hardware for direct comparison. This is what is happening here, weather they actualy go to war is not the question, what would happen if they did, is the question.

[Triforcer]

You're retarded.

What does the ubber power of Q have to do with Federation Vs Empire Technology? Why do you assume Q would help the Federation, anyway?

Can you read? WILLIAM T. RIKER HAD THE POWER OF THE Q. I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT Q HIMSELF. Mr. Wong said I can pick any resources that ST has had throughout its fleshedout timeline, and he can do the same with the Empire. Well, I pick that. If precise points on the timeline mean nothing to him, he shouldn't be worried at all.

[Ghost Rider]

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Now dumbass is banding semantics because he has no basis for any of his rants.

[Ghost Rider]

Oh as for the Q thing...I will just go the Q takes away Riker's Q power.

And this is somehow related to a tech vs tech how again, dumbass?

[Knife]

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Now dumbass is banding semantics because he has no basis for any of his rants.

Yeah, his argument is quickly disinergrating despite his selective hearing.

[Triforcer]

Quit dancing and face the problem, Russian AAA and Air power, not to mention Naval power were not directly challenged durring the cold war, but were put up against US hardware for direct comparison. This is what is happening here, weather they actualy go to war is not the question, what would happen if they did, is the question.

That is not what is happening here. Mr. Wong directly said in the 50k years argument that the Empire and the Fed are being pitted against each other "as they are". Accordingly, his hardware comparison is faulty because the remnant did not have Galaxy Guns, Death Stars, etc...all things he puts as current resources in his industrial comparison.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Triforcer, this is a probably the worlds LARGEST strawman.

Yes, Wong uses a reborn Empire as part of his plot device. Others just use wormholes and the Empire how it was under Palpatines' rule. Don't you see you are nitpicking a freaking plot device.

Oh and Slartibartfast, did you not have your V8 today?