Dissilusioned with the ICS (Or: The good old days)

Acclamator · Post by **Acclamator** » 2002-12-03 03:57pm

My first reaction when the ICS came out was "Saxton is a god!"

After years of running off calcs and trying to prove this way and that way to the trekkies that the Empire would win, we finally had "200 Gigatons" and "Lucasfilm Ltd." within the same book. The ultimate weapon. A giant, cartoon foot to stomp down on the arguments of those who proclaimed that the Federation even stood a chance.

But it's beginning to wane on me. The novelty is gone. I miss the old days of combat. This new post-ICS era of a swift "One ISD could wipe out 1,000 Federation ships, and you are STUPID you trekkie fool" is boring to me.

It's like when you've been playing a computer game a long time in "normal" mode, and then you discover the cheat codes. You're like "hell yeah!" and stomp everything and win the game... but after a while the novelty of that soon wanes and you are left with the desire to try getting through the game as it was.

I now look with nostalgia on the old pre-ICS days... when victory wasn't so pathetically easy, when we actually had to fight for victory in some debates, when...

Is there anybody who is with me in feeling this way?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2002-12-03 04:02pm

Not really because when comparing two universe in such a fashion all we get is which side we like better.

I want proof that one side is better and the selfsame evidence to be that one side cannot go "NU-UH!!!"...aside from Dorkstar and ilk.

Rightous Fist Of Heaven · Post by **Rightous Fist Of Heaven** » 2002-12-03 04:18pm

Not true, because of the AOTC:ICS, some of the idiotic Trekkies have gotten even more zealous and stupid, SlobbaTheHutt is a good example of this.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-12-03 05:12pm

Acclamator wrote:My first reaction when the ICS came out was "Saxton is a god!"

After years of running off calcs and trying to prove this way and that way to the trekkies that the Empire would win, we finally had "200 Gigatons" and "Lucasfilm Ltd." within the same book. The ultimate weapon. A giant, cartoon foot to stomp down on the arguments of those who proclaimed that the Federation even stood a chance.

But it's beginning to wane on me. The novelty is gone. I miss the old days of combat. This new post-ICS era of a swift "One ISD could wipe out 1,000 Federation ships, and you are STUPID you trekkie fool" is boring to me.

It's like when you've been playing a computer game a long time in "normal" mode, and then you discover the cheat codes. You're like "hell yeah!" and stomp everything and win the game... but after a while the novelty of that soon wanes and you are left with the desire to try getting through the game as it was.

I now look with nostalgia on the old pre-ICS days... when victory wasn't so pathetically easy, when we actually had to fight for victory in some debates, when...

Is there anybody who is with me in feeling this way?

Indeed I feel this way very much. It grates on me how its nearly impossible to get a reasonable debate going on ST vs SW.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2002-12-03 05:13pm

Some of us felt that way within minutes; it didn't take months.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-12-03 05:20pm

I see what you're saying, but I think I like it this way. Part of the reason I do this is to laugh at stupid people, and people who simply refuse direct evidence like that are laughable to the extreme.

THEHOOLIGANJEDI · Post by **THEHOOLIGANJEDI** » 2002-12-03 05:46pm

Well for me the ICS just confirmed my assumptions on how nasty TL cannons are. I always thought they were in the gigaton range to begin with. As for Trek based on what I've seen on ST:V, First Contact, and numerous episodes, I always thought that the 64 MT calc were way way generous. They were contradicted on many occassions.

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2002-12-03 05:56pm

I'll second the motion that the ICS was merely official confirmation of facts many of us have long felt are indisputable. Before the ICS emerged few if any people would, after reasonable debate, ever assume the Federaiton or any of its equivalent powers would be capable of takign the Empie on. The firepower values (and thus shielding values) gleaned from the movies after laborous calculation combined with the advantages in speed, C4I, manpower, and industrial might long ago settled all traditional military encounters. In other words the only difference between now and then is the justification of that viewpoint long held.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-12-03 06:03pm

CmdrWilkens: Pre ICS - most people placed HTL's in the 100's of MT with the highest sane values being in and around 2 GT, at this point at least Federation ships could put up a fight but now with the ICS being taken as gospel the Feds couldnt even take on a single ISD.

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2002-12-03 06:08pm

TheDarkling wrote:CmdrWilkens: Pre ICS - most people placed HTL's in the 100's of MT with the highest sane values being in and around 2 GT, at this point at least Federation ships could put up a fight but now with the ICS being taken as gospel the Feds couldnt even take on a single ISD.

Near as I can recall low gigatonnage was considered highly sane and it still exceeded all sane values for Fed weaponry. Pegasus and Night terrors amongst others long ago were enough to shatter any belief that Pho-Torps are multi dozen MT weapons, lacking this they are little more powerful than the light weaponry on an ISD. I know even before the ICS came out most debates where whether Fed ships could take on Neb-Bs and Carracks while most Trekkkies I know were conceeding strategic defeat and only playing up other little bits. To me the debate was as over then as it is now...you can argue tidbits but the big picture is so definite only an idiot would argue against it.

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2002-12-03 06:26pm

ICS makes some sense, but yeah, it's eradicated all SW vs ST debates. And those involving B5 as well.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-12-03 07:13pm

The thing that angered me the most about ICS was the sudden attitude some warsies had right after wards. Suddenly NOTHING from Trek was equal, let alone better to Wars. One particular warsie stated that since Wars had 200 GT weapons, all SW technology was better then ST technology and that SW could make no positive use of ANY Trek technology.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-12-03 07:16pm

CmdrWilkens wrote:
TheDarkling wrote:CmdrWilkens: Pre ICS - most people placed HTL's in the 100's of MT with the highest sane values being in and around 2 GT, at this point at least Federation ships could put up a fight but now with the ICS being taken as gospel the Feds couldnt even take on a single ISD.
Near as I can recall low gigatonnage was considered highly sane and it still exceeded all sane values for Fed weaponry. Pegasus and Night terrors amongst others long ago were enough to shatter any belief that Pho-Torps are multi dozen MT weapons, lacking this they are little more powerful than the light weaponry on an ISD. I know even before the ICS came out most debates where whether Fed ships could take on Neb-Bs and Carracks while most Trekkkies I know were conceeding strategic defeat and only playing up other little bits. To me the debate was as over then as it is now...you can argue tidbits but the big picture is so definite only an idiot would argue against it.

Thats the problem. Most warsies conviently ignore the fact that most rational trekkies concede the strategic fight. Hell, just 6 months into my stay at SB I acknowledged this. We wanted to do the tactical ship to ship battles. And don't even start with Pegasus settling anything. That asteroid was producing greater then 1 G of gravity. Want to calculate how much firepower it would take to destroy something with that much mass?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-12-03 07:25pm

Alyeska wrote:The thing that angered me the most about ICS was the sudden attitude some warsies had right after wards. Suddenly NOTHING from Trek was equal, let alone better to Wars. One particular warsie stated that since Wars had 200 GT weapons, all SW technology was better then ST technology and that SW could make no positive use of ANY Trek technology.

Darth Servo wrote: IDIOT. Who cares who came up with it? Who cares if 7 of 9 programmed the info. It was still able to be done with a PRIMITIVE FEDERATION STARSHIP so it CAN'T be that difficult? I'm saying that the borg could do it using NOTHING BUT RELATIVELY PRIMITIVE FEDERATION TECHNOLOGY therefore, it CAN'T be that hard you moron!!!.

Yeah I see what you mean

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-12-03 07:30pm

Even without ICS multi gigaton, up to 70 in one case Turbolaser calculation existed along with teraton shielding. Still one-shot killers, and it was still possibul, if quite difficult for one ISD to defeat the Federation.

ICS really just made what we already knew offical.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-12-03 07:42pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:Even without ICS multi gigaton, up to 70 in one case Turbolaser calculation existed along with teraton shielding. Still one-shot killers, and it was still possibul, if quite difficult for one ISD to defeat the Federation.

ICS really just made what we already knew offical.

No, ICS makes it more then absurd. Prior to ICS a small task force of ST ships could theoretically take on an ISD. I saw some at ASVS saying that a dozen GCSs could take on an ISD with realistic chance of victory. Suddenly with ICS and now a THOUSAND Borg cubes are considered a minor nuicance. A single ISD can suddenly destroy the entire Federation.

Don't even try to say ICS confirmed what you already knew. I never saw a single rational debater ever claim anything higher then 2 GT. ICS completely changed the game and its affects are much more far reaching then your "it confirmed what we already knew" claim your making.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-12-03 07:46pm

Don't even try to say ICS confirmed what you already knew. I never saw a single rational debater ever claim anything higher then 2 GT. ICS completely changed the game and its affects are much more far reaching then your "it confirmed what we already knew" claim your making.

Guess I must be a crazy loon then, I was one of the ones claming gigaton range(High at that, my own estmates where between 90 GT-2 Teratons) because of the problem of how a Base Delta Zero Operation could be preformed so quickly with so little firepower

Even BEFORE ICS however Darkling/Alyeska you have to admint the three things that SW had going for it

1. Industrial Advantage/Numerical Advantage
2. Sensor Range and sensitivity
3. FTL Travel Speed

DID NOT CHANGE with the introduction of ICS, Even if Heavy Turbolasers WHERE only 100 Megatons the Federation would have an increably hard time beating the Empire....

Can I get you two to admit that much?

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2002-12-03 07:48pm

Alyeska wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:Even without ICS multi gigaton, up to 70 in one case Turbolaser calculation existed along with teraton shielding. Still one-shot killers, and it was still possibul, if quite difficult for one ISD to defeat the Federation.

ICS really just made what we already knew offical.
No, ICS makes it more then absurd. Prior to ICS a small task force of ST ships could theoretically take on an ISD. I saw some at ASVS saying that a dozen GCSs could take on an ISD with realistic chance of victory. Suddenly with ICS and now a THOUSAND Borg cubes are considered a minor nuicance. A single ISD can suddenly destroy the entire Federation.

Don't even try to say ICS confirmed what you already knew. I never saw a single rational debater ever claim anything higher then 2 GT. ICS completely changed the game and its affects are much more far reaching then your "it confirmed what we already knew" claim your making.

You might or might not know of AOS over at ASVS but his calcs on Imeprial firepower placed HTLs into the nearly 100GT range and shielding in multi teraton range where the ICS ended up residing. Furthermore he is a quite raitonal debater though at the times his estimates were rather considered the high end though they were perfectly valid were one to take the 25000 ISD number applied to Dodonna's half the starfleet quote.

Nonetheless evidence enough existed that SW firepower and shielding was easily GT and TT range respectively, the major change was that ICs made those mid-range as oppossed to high-end.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2002-12-03 07:51pm

Mr Bean wrote:
Don't even try to say ICS confirmed what you already knew. I never saw a single rational debater ever claim anything higher then 2 GT. ICS completely changed the game and its affects are much more far reaching then your "it confirmed what we already knew" claim your making.
Guess I must be a crazy loon then, I was one of the ones claming gigaton range(High at that, my own estmates where between 90 GT-2 Teratons) because of the problem of how a Base Delta Zero Operation could be preformed so quickly with so little firepower

Even BEFORE ICS however Darkling/Alyeska you have to admint the three things that SW had going for it

1. Industrial Advantage/Numerical Advantage
2. Sensor Range and sensitivity
3. FTL Travel Speed

DID NOT CHANGE with the introduction of ICS, Even if Heavy Turbolasers WHERE only 100 Megatons the Federation would have an increably hard time beating the Empire....

Can I get you two to admit that much?

Most rational trekkies did admit that. Especially advantage #1, and #3. #2 I'm not that familiar with......

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-12-03 07:57pm

Mr Bean: Alyeska has already admitted that in this thread, as for myself -NEVER, just kidding

but if the Feds could handle 10 Trek Ships to 1 ISD (for an example) then the FKR alliance could at least inflict problems on the empire (enough that the empire wouldnt want a piece of them with the rebellion going on, the empire has shown that it wasnt interested comitting ships to take over the Haplan (I recall something to that effect correct me if im wrong)).

In the above case the Dominion would also have a chance as would the Borg and so on, it wuold also give the FKR some room to come up with tactics and such to help them out instead of - yeah you could sneak those 40 Warbirds behind enemy lines but then an ISD would ram them and not even notice.

With MT or low GT level HTL's theres still room for debate but with 200 GT there is no debate.

THEHOOLIGANJEDI · Post by **THEHOOLIGANJEDI** » 2002-12-03 08:10pm

Alyeska wrote:
Don't even try to say ICS confirmed what you already knew. I never saw a single rational debater ever claim anything higher then 2 GT. ICS completely changed the game and its affects are much more far reaching then your "it confirmed what we already knew" claim your making.

I too was one of the people who thought that GT level was very realistic, exept mine were a bit over the top, some what above what the ICS shows. I actually believed that a single Tl blast could annihilate the enitire US.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-12-03 08:19pm

http://kier.3dfrontier.com/forums/showt ... genumber=1

While there are some silly results its clear that 200 GT isn't crossing many minds (the options range from double digits MT, 300 MT, 600 MT and GT) no unless you think the ranges are that skewed that HDS intended 1-200 GT to be the final range (not very fair in that case) then it seems 200 GT wasnt even seen fit to be part of the poll (single digit GT seeming most likely to be the final range).

You will note GAT voting for option 3 (600 MT) seems like he underestimated the TL firepower by a rather large margine (X400), sorry to single him out but I just noticed while skimming the thread.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-12-03 08:20pm

I actually believed that a single Tl blast could annihilate the enitire US.

Hold on a seocond, Lets pretend the US is an Astriod...

*Calcuates

Wow that means we have 17 Yottaton HTLs

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-12-03 08:26pm

Mr Bean wrote:
I actually believed that a single Tl blast could annihilate the enitire US.
Hold on a seocond, Lets pretend the US is an Astriod...

*Calcuates

Wow that means we have 17 Yottaton HTLs

Scaling with the RPG information will give you that.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-12-03 08:31pm

Alyeska wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:Even without ICS multi gigaton, up to 70 in one case Turbolaser calculation existed along with teraton shielding. Still one-shot killers, and it was still possibul, if quite difficult for one ISD to defeat the Federation.

ICS really just made what we already knew offical.
No, ICS makes it more then absurd. Prior to ICS a small task force of ST ships could theoretically take on an ISD. I saw some at ASVS saying that a dozen GCSs could take on an ISD with realistic chance of victory. Suddenly with ICS and now a THOUSAND Borg cubes are considered a minor nuicance. A single ISD can suddenly destroy the entire Federation.

Don't even try to say ICS confirmed what you already knew. I never saw a single rational debater ever claim anything higher then 2 GT. ICS completely changed the game and its affects are much more far reaching then your "it confirmed what we already knew" claim your making.

Really, do explain the 22 gigaton HTL's Wong's had on his site for years then.

Higher then 2-gigaton calculation got used constantly on ASVS; many just didn't bother because there was no need.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Dissilusioned with the ICS (Or: The good old days)

Dissilusioned with the ICS (Or: The good old days)

Re: Dissilusioned with the ICS (Or: The good old days)