Blah blah Catholicism blah blah

[Molyneux]

The covenant between God and Abraham had no fulfilment conditions; it was supposedly an eternal bond between the Jewish people and God. The Messiah was not mentioned in it; the idea of a Messiah didn't arise until much later, after the establishment of Israel (and besides which, Jesus does not fit the criteria for being Messiah.)

If God is omniscient and all-powerful, why would He have to revise a compact like that?

Question: What is the Criteria that makes Christ not the Messiah?

Let's not forget that Like all of Humanity, the Jews were still living in original Sin and Could not get into heaven because of that fact. The only way for mankind to get into heaven is through the birth and death of the messiah which would take away that original blot from mankind and open up the gates of heaven for all mankind.

Well, let's see...the Messiah is supposed to herald the end of war and the beginning of a golden age. That's a pretty basic defining trait according to Jewish tradition (where the idea of a Messiah COMES from). Haven't seen any of those around lately...how about you?


Not to mention that the idea of original sin is stupid as all hell. If it's true, it's the greatest injustice in history (since it applies the sin committed by two people to EVERY SINGLE HUMAN BEING WHO HAS EVER FUCKING LIVED). How would you feel if you were held liable for a crime committed by your great-great-great-grandfather as if you had performed the deed yourself?


Also - your question was ill-phrased. You have to prove someone to *be* the Messiah, not prove that they're *not*. Jesus does not fit the major criteria (peace on earth or the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem, for example).

[EmperorSolo51]

Well, let's see...the Messiah is supposed to herald the end of war and the beginning of a golden age. That's a pretty basic defining trait according to Jewish tradition (where the idea of a Messiah COMES from). Haven't seen any of those around lately...how about you?

Under the Christian Standpoint, The War is already over between Good and Evil. The Messiah has established his Kingdom in Heaven for all of mankind, t's just that Evil doesn't know it has lost the war. that's what the day of last Judgement is.

Not to mention that the idea of original sin is stupid as all hell. If it's true, it's the greatest injustice in history (since it applies the sin committed by two people to EVERY SINGLE HUMAN BEING WHO HAS EVER FUCKING LIVED). How would you feel if you were held liable for a crime committed by your great-great-great-grandfather as if you had performed the deed yourself

The Concept of original Sin is not Stupid. It is a black mark on Humanity to sow that we are a fallen race and have a fallen nature. We in our early acestors were given many graces but through our own pride we gave God the finger and thus we were promptly thrown out of paradise for. It is through Christ's passion and death by which that blot of sin on our very being is removed and it enables all thise who died before Christ including the Old Testament figures to enter into heaven.

Also - your question was ill-phrased. You have to prove someone to *be* the Messiah, not prove that they're *not*. Jesus does not fit the major criteria (peace on earth or the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem, for example)

No, What was meant in the Old Testament prophecies was that there would be a New Jerusalem not just rebuilding of the old temple from Isaiah Down. What Christians have taken this that the New Jerusalem would be the Church that Christ set up with his 12 apostles and that the New Jerusalem as seen at the Last Judgement would be the Church Triumphant. One needs Not to read the scripture literally in a protestant fashion to know that Christ is the Messiah.

[General Zod]

No, What was meant in the Old Testament prophecies was that there would be a New Jerusalem not just rebuilding of the old temple from Isaiah Down. What Christians have taken this that the New Jerusalem would be the Church that Christ set up with his 12 apostles and that the New Jerusalem as seen at the Last Judgement would be the Church Triumphant. One needs Not to read the scripture literally in a protestant fashion to know that Christ is the Messiah.

Disregarding the whole "The Bible says it's true" schtick, if you aren't going to read it literally to determine how Jesus is the Messiah, then what kind of qualifications do you use instead? Are the prophecies in the old testament simply not valid? Or are you cherry-picking here?

[EmperorSolo51]

Disregarding the whole "The Bible says it's true" schtick, if you aren't going to read it literally to determine how Jesus is the Messiah, then what kind of qualifications do you use instead? Are the prophecies in the old testament simply not valid? Or are you cherry-picking here?

Unlike Protestant Fundamentalists, Catholics and Greek Orthdox believe one should also examine the scriptures carefully and not take individual scriptures at face value. By doing so you lose any historical or spiritual significance. We believe you must take the scriptures as a whole.

[General Zod]

Disregarding the whole "The Bible says it's true" schtick, if you aren't going to read it literally to determine how Jesus is the Messiah, then what kind of qualifications do you use instead? Are the prophecies in the old testament simply not valid? Or are you cherry-picking here?

Unlike Protestant Fundamentalists, Catholics and Greek Orthdox believe one should also examine the scriptures carefully and not take individual scriptures at face value. By doing so you lose any historical or spiritual significance. We believe you must take the scriptures as a whole.

Thank you for ignoring the second half of my question. What kind of qualifications do you use if not the literal interpretations of the prophecies in the books? What sort of 'bench mark' is there to determine whether or not the said individual is a messiah, or the prophecy has in fact occured the way it was supposed to?

[Molyneux]

Well, let's see...the Messiah is supposed to herald the end of war and the beginning of a golden age. That's a pretty basic defining trait according to Jewish tradition (where the idea of a Messiah COMES from). Haven't seen any of those around lately...how about you?

Under the Christian Standpoint, The War is already over between Good and Evil. The Messiah has established his Kingdom in Heaven for all of mankind, t's just that Evil doesn't know it has lost the war. that's what the day of last Judgement is.

You're misunderstanding my statement, I think; the Messiah does not herald the end of a war between Good and Evil (the concept of a struggle between God and Satan is alien to Judaism, seeing as how God is omnipotent by definition - similarly, the concept of Hell does not exist in the Jewish tradition).

The Messiah will come when (or alternatively, when the Messiah comes he/she will cause) war is over. WAR, as in, armies fighting one another and killing and dying. Not an abstract concept, but the actuality of war will cease to exist during the Messianic age.

The Messiah will also end the Diaspora and PHYSICALLY REBUILD THE FUCKING TEMPLE. It's not symbolism, it's not metaphor, it's a fucking CRITERION that when the Messiah comes he will rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem. It will be a physical temple made of REAL materials, and it will most likely incorporate the Western Wall (seeing as how it is the remaining member from the destroyed Temple).

If Jesus doesn't fit the criteria of Messiah, then he plain and simply cannot BE the Messiah (at least, not the Messiah as it's defined in Judaism, which happens to be where Christianity derives the concept).

Not to mention that the idea of original sin is stupid as all hell. If it's true, it's the greatest injustice in history (since it applies the sin committed by two people to EVERY SINGLE HUMAN BEING WHO HAS EVER FUCKING LIVED). How would you feel if you were held liable for a crime committed by your great-great-great-grandfather as if you had performed the deed yourself

The Concept of original Sin is not Stupid. It is a black mark on Humanity to sow that we are a fallen race and have a fallen nature. We in our early acestors were given many graces but through our own pride we gave God the finger and thus we were promptly thrown out of paradise for. It is through Christ's passion and death by which that blot of sin on our very being is removed and it enables all thise who died before Christ including the Old Testament figures to enter into heaven.

I'm sorry, please let me clarify my earlier statement.
The idea of applying a sin committed thousands of years ago to every human being who has lived since then is the height of injustice; since we did not yet exist when the apple was eaten, it cannot be logically justified to punish us for that transgression.

If God is a just God, then He cannot punish people for sins that they did not commit.

Also - your question was ill-phrased. You have to prove someone to *be* the Messiah, not prove that they're *not*. Jesus does not fit the major criteria (peace on earth or the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem, for example)

No, What was meant in the Old Testament prophecies was that there would be a New Jerusalem not just rebuilding of the old temple from Isaiah Down. What Christians have taken this that the New Jerusalem would be the Church that Christ set up with his 12 apostles and that the New Jerusalem as seen at the Last Judgement would be the Church Triumphant. One needs Not to read the scripture literally in a protestant fashion to know that Christ is the Messiah.

"What is meant" isn't as important as what is SAID in the document. If you take it all as symbolism and metaphor, then you're basically saying that your interpretation is automatically the right one, regardless of evidence or common sense.

[CaptJodan]

The Concept of original Sin is not Stupid. It is a black mark on Humanity to sow that we are a fallen race and have a fallen nature. We in our early acestors were given many graces but through our own pride we gave God the finger and thus we were promptly thrown out of paradise for. It is through Christ's passion and death by which that blot of sin on our very being is removed and it enables all thise who died before Christ including the Old Testament figures to enter into heaven.

Now see this is something I'll never understand. You are saying that inherited sins are ok, something that society itself as abolished.

If I had been there, and the choice was given to me of either death, or leave the tree alone, I probably would have left the tree alone, especailly if I had the ability to understand what death was (and the pain leading up to it, as well as all the people I would screw in the process). I'm being punished for a moron who did something I wouldn't have done in his place. I'd imagine a great many fundies would do the same thing (I know certain extreme family members of mine wouldn't have gone near the tree). How is that just, to you? Just becuase I was unlucky enough to be born a human soul?

[EmperorSolo51]

Thank you for ignoring the second half of my question. What kind of qualifications do you use if not the literal interpretations of the prophecies in the books? What sort of 'bench mark' is there to determine whether or not the said individual is a messiah, or the prophecy has in fact occured the way it was supposed to?

As Catholics as said earlier take the entire scripture old and new testament and read them both together to understand what the earlier prophet has said.

Well Let's start somewhere. I think the best way to start is at the Book of the Prophet Isaiah and the Old testament Prophecies.

12
And when your time comes and you rest with your ancestors, I will raise up your heir after you, sprung from your loins, and I will make his kingdom firm.
13
It is he who shall build a house for my name. And I will make his royal throne firm forever.
14
I will be a father to him, and he shall be a son to me. And if he does wrong, I will correct him with the rod of men and with human chastisements;
15
but I will not withdraw my favor from him as I withdrew it from your predecessor Saul, whom I removed from my presence.
2nd samuel 7:12-15

We Catholics take this to mean that when the Messiah comes he will establish God's Church the Eklesia on earth and the Messiuah shall come to rule over that visable Church and that the kingdom alluded to is the Kingdom of heaven which Christ proclaims in the following new testament texts.

29
My brothers, one can confidently say to you about the patriarch David that he died and was buried, and his tomb is in our midst to this day.
30
But since he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants upon his throne,
31
he foresaw and spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that neither was he abandoned to the netherworld nor did his flesh see corruption.
32
God raised this Jesus; of this we are all witnesses.
33
Exalted at the right hand of God, 6 he received the promise of the holy Spirit from the Father and poured it forth, as you (both) see and hear.
34
For David did not go up into heaven, but he himself said: 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand
35
until I make your enemies your footstool."'
36
Therefore let the whole house of Israel know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Messiah, this Jesus whom you crucified."

Acts of the Apostles, Chapter 2 29-36

2 For to which of the angels did God ever say: "You are my son; this day I have begotten you"? Or again: "I will be a father to him, and he shall be a son to me"?
6
And again, when he leads 3 the first-born into the world, he says: "Let all the angels of God worship him."
7
Of the angels he says: "He makes his angels winds and his ministers a fiery flame";
8
but of the Son: "Your throne, O God, 4 stands forever and ever; and a righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom.
9
You loved justice and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, anointed you with the oil of gladness above your companions";
10
and: "At the beginning, O Lord, you established the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hands.
11
They will perish, but you remain; and they will all grow old like a garment.
12
You will roll them up like a cloak, and like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end."
13
But to which of the angels has he ever said: "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool"?
14
Are they not all ministering spirits sent to serve, for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation?
The Epistle Attributed to St. Paul to the Hebrews

9
5 Rejoice heartily, O daughter Zion, shout for joy, O daughter Jerusalem! See, your king shall come to you; a just savior is he, Meek, and riding on an ass, on a colt, the foal of an ass.
10
6 He shall banish the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem; The warrior's bow shall be banished, and he shall proclaim peace to the nations. His dominion shall be from sea to sea, and from the River to the ends of the earth.

The book of Zecheriah, Chapter 9 verse 9-10

This we believe is a fortelling that the Messiah will not be a man who is leading an army into jerusalem. This messiah shall be but a simple man with a great task ahead of him and is King of all of the earth not just Jerusalem. We see in the Gospel according to St. Matthew that the Messiah is Christ, born of a simple family, is the son of god and proclaims a message of peace for all mankind.

28
6 After he had said this, he proceeded on his journey up to Jerusalem.
29
As he drew near to Bethphage and Bethany at the place called the Mount of Olives, he sent two of his disciples.
30
He said, "Go into the village opposite you, and as you enter it you will find a colt tethered on which no one has ever sat. Untie it and bring it here.
31
And if anyone should ask you, 'Why are you untying it?' you will answer, 'The Master has need of it.'"
32
So those who had been sent went off and found everything just as he had told them.
33
And as they were untying the colt, its owners said to them, "Why are you untying this colt?"
34
They answered, "The Master has need of it."
35
So they brought it to Jesus, threw their cloaks over the colt, and helped Jesus to mount.
36
As he rode along, the people were spreading their cloaks on the road;
37
and now as he was approaching the slope of the Mount of Olives, the whole multitude of his disciples began to praise God aloud with joy for all the mighty deeds they had seen.
38
They proclaimed: "Blessed is the king who comes in the name of the Lord. 7 Peace in heaven and glory in the highest."
The Gospel According to St. Matthew, chapter 19, verses 28-38

1:21 She will bear a son, and you are to name him Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins." 1:22 All this took place to fulfill what had been spoken by the Lord through the prophet: 1:23 "Look, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall name him Emmanuel," which means, "God is with us."

Now the verse that most people use to cite that Jesus is not the Messiah is the fact that the person who is the Messaiah shall be called Immanual. At first glance this actually looks like the cynics silver bullet. But looking more closely at it actually is a fullfillment of prophecy.

As we know the name Immanuel means "God with Us". Ancient Hebrews believed that he will named Immanuel. If you look at the prophecy, it says that "they shall call name him Immanuel." But it's not the only place where the name Emmanuel is used. There are two key places where the name Immanuel is used in the book of Isaiah.

6
4 Because this people has rejected the waters of Shiloah that flow gently, And melts with fear before the loftiness of Rezin and Remaliah's son,
7
Therefore the LORD raises against them the waters of the River, great and mighty (the king of Assyria and all his power). It shall rise above all its channels, and overflow all its banks;
8
It shall pass into Judah, and flood it all throughout: up to the neck it shall reach; It shall spread its wings the full width of your land, Immanuel!
9
Know, O peoples, and be appalled! Give ear, all you distant lands! Arm, but be crushed! Arm, but be crushed!
Isaiah, 8:6-8

Most people don't recognize this one. This one is in reference to some flooding of the river Shiloh. Notice that the prophet says Immanuel. The prophet is telling the hebrews not to wory for God is with them. The name Immanuel refers in this case to the people of Israel.

The second important place where the name Immanuel is used in verse 10 in the same chapter,

10
5 Form a plan, and it shall be thwarted; make a resolve, and it shall not be carried out, for "With us is God!"

Again Immanuel is in the connotation of that idea of hope beyond all hopes that God does not abandon his people and cares for each and every one of us.

So when Christ is born it is a fulfillment of scripture becuase the Messaiah has been born as he his God the Son born into human flesh and is with is in his life,death, and resurection as he was for the nation of Israel.

[General Zod]

>snip long windedness<

So in other words, you take what you can't make fit immediately and rationalise it, just like every other stripe of apologist. Gotcha.

[Superman]

My brothers, one can confidently say to you about the patriarch David that he died and was buried, and his tomb is in our midst to this day.
30
But since he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants upon his throne,

Oh wait, Jesus wasn't actually a decendent of David since Joseph (who was reported to be) never actually had sex with Mary. Virgin birth, remember?

Guess he wasn't the Messiah afterall.