Fighter Jet Rats?

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chaoschristian
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Fighter Jet Rats?

Post by chaoschristian »

I found this posted on a Christian BBS:
Why this brain flies on rat cunning

By Philip Sherwell
Washington

It sounds like science fiction: a brain nurtured in a Petri dish learns to pilot a fighter plane as scientists develop a new breed of "living" computer. But in groundbreaking experiments in a Florida laboratory that is exactly what is happening.

The "brain", grown from 25,000 neural cells extracted from a single rat embryo, has been taught to fly an F-22 jet simulator by scientists at the University of Florida.

They hope their research into neural computation will help them develop sophisticated hybrid computers, with a thinking biological component.

One target is to install living computers in unmanned aircraft so they can be deployed on missions too dangerous for humans. It is also hoped that the research will provide the basis for developing new drugs to treat brain diseases such as epilepsy.

The brain-in-a-dish is the idea of Thomas DeMarse, 37, an assistant professor of biomedical engineering at the University of Florida. His work has been praised as a significant insight into the brain by leading US academics and scientific journals.

The 25,000 neurons were suspended in a specialised liquid to keep them alive and then laid across a grid of 60 electrodes in a small glass dish.

Under the microscope they looked at first like grains of sand, but soon the cells begin to connect to form what scientists are calling a "live computation device" (a brain). The electrodes measure and stimulate neural activity in the network, allowing researchers to study how the brain processes, transforms and stores information.

In the most striking experiment, the brain was linked to the jet simulator. Manipulated by the electrodes and a desktop computer, it was taught to control the flight path, even in mock hurricane-strength winds.

"When we first hooked them up, the plane 'crashed' all the time," Dr DeMarse said. "But over time, the neural network slowly adapts as the brain learns to control the pitch and roll of the aircraft. After a while, it produces a nice straight and level trajectory."

Previously, scientists have been able to monitor the activity of only a few neurons at a time, but Dr DeMarse and his team can study how thousands of cells conduct calculations together. But it is still a long way from a human brain.

"The goal is to study how cortical networks perform their neural computations. The implications are extremely important," Dr DeMarse said.

The first result could be to enable scientists to build living elements into traditional computers, enabling more flexible and varied means of solving problems. Although computers today are extremely powerful, they still lack the flexibility in working things out that humans take for granted.

Computers, for example, find it difficult to spot the difference between a table and a lamp if they are unfamiliar with them.

"The algorithms that living computers use are also extremely fault-tolerant," Dr DeMarse said. "A few neurons die off every day in humans without any noticeable drop in performance, and yet if the same were to happen in a traditional silicon-based computer the results would be catastrophic."

The work by Dr DeMarse and his team is attracting interest from scientists around the world.

The US National Science Foundation has awarded them a $US500,000 ($A640,000) grant to produce a mathematical model of how the neurons compute, and the US National Institute of Health is financing research into epilepsy.

-Telegraph
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Anyone seen/heard of this?
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Post by Temjin »

After seeing the thread title, did anyone else imagine little rats puting on flight helmets, getting into miniture f-14, and taking off to the sounds of "Highway to the Dangerzone"?

OT, I think this is very cool. I also think that it could cause quite a controversey. I imagine that a lot of people would be very uncomfortable with humanity creating "living machines."
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Post by Grand Moff Yenchin »

The Rift Trilogy novels by Peter Watts has some spooky description of what might happen. After all, strictly speaking this is a brain which goes by it own rules...
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Post by Eris »

Temjin wrote:After seeing the thread title, did anyone else imagine little rats puting on flight helmets, getting into miniture f-14, and taking off to the sounds of "Highway to the Dangerzone"?
Save for the choice of music, that's just about exactly what sprang to mind. It made me giggle, but I'm really short on sleep so that might be just me going insane.

And really, I'm personally not so worried about living machines. Our technology has been outrunning our maturity to use it for quite some time now anyway; what's one more step? Here's what's got me in a tizzy:
Article thingy wrote:One target is to install living computers in unmanned aircraft so they can be deployed on missions too dangerous for humans.
Now that worries me. We don't even have a good definition of what makes an organism a person yet, and we're already planning to create new 'creatures' that apparently both think and experience with the express intent of putting them in high risk situations? :shock: The ethical implications do so much more than just boggle the mind...
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Re: Fighter Jet Rats?

Post by LordShaithis »

chaoschristian wrote:"When we first hooked them up, the plane 'crashed' all the time," Dr DeMarse said. "But over time, the neural network slowly adapts as the brain learns to control the pitch and roll of the aircraft. After a while, it produces a nice straight and level trajectory."
How does the mini-brain know that crashing is bad?
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Re: Fighter Jet Rats?

Post by Molyneux »

LordShaithis wrote:
chaoschristian wrote:"When we first hooked them up, the plane 'crashed' all the time," Dr DeMarse said. "But over time, the neural network slowly adapts as the brain learns to control the pitch and roll of the aircraft. After a while, it produces a nice straight and level trajectory."
How does the mini-brain know that crashing is bad?
Electric shocks, perhaps? Maybe the brain just likes flying?
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Post by Braedley »

Eris wrote:
Temjin wrote:After seeing the thread title, did anyone else imagine little rats puting on flight helmets, getting into miniture f-14, and taking off to the sounds of "Highway to the Dangerzone"?
Save for the choice of music, that's just about exactly what sprang to mind. It made me giggle, but I'm really short on sleep so that might be just me going insane.

And really, I'm personally not so worried about living machines. Our technology has been outrunning our maturity to use it for quite some time now anyway; what's one more step? Here's what's got me in a tizzy:
Article thingy wrote:One target is to install living computers in unmanned aircraft so they can be deployed on missions too dangerous for humans.
Now that worries me. We don't even have a good definition of what makes an organism a person yet, and we're already planning to create new 'creatures' that apparently both think and experience with the express intent of putting them in high risk situations? :shock: The ethical implications do so much more than just boggle the mind...
So you think it's unethical to use avalanche dogs for search and rescue? There is still a good chance that another avalanche could fall on the whole team, leaving 3 or 4 times as many people trapped along with the dogs. What about police dogs? These animals are put into these high risk situations because they are trained to be able to do the tasks required of them. They are by no means expendable, but other than that, how are they any different than these brain cells (and I use the term very loosely only because they are cells that are found in a brain)?. A collection of 25,000 neurons is expendable, because although it can do calculations, it still doesn't have the capacity of thought. It is by no means self aware. And just for reference, a human brain consists of about 100 billion neurons.
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Post by NecronLord »

Eris wrote:Now that worries me. We don't even have a good definition of what makes an organism a person yet, and we're already planning to create new 'creatures' that apparently both think and experience with the express intent of putting them in high risk situations? :shock: The ethical implications do so much more than just boggle the mind...
I can practically garuntee you that you've destroyed a living being with a larger brain than this fighter for fun or convinience. An ant has about a quarter of a million cells in its brain, and you've almost certainly conciously stepped on one when you didn't need to.
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Post by General Zod »

Temjin wrote:After seeing the thread title, did anyone else imagine little rats puting on flight helmets, getting into miniture f-14, and taking off to the sounds of "Highway to the Dangerzone"?
Here I was thinking that the Air Force had rat infestation problems in thier fighters.

Though this does sound kinda cool, even if you can pretty much guarantee that the religious right are going to screech until it gets shut down, or at least tucked away somewhere quietly.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

This is quite old news, but it's good to see the project still exists.
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Post by Eris »

Braedley wrote:So you think it's unethical to use avalanche dogs for search and rescue? There is still a good chance that another avalanche could fall on the whole team, leaving 3 or 4 times as many people trapped along with the dogs. What about police dogs? These animals are put into these high risk situations because they are trained to be able to do the tasks required of them.
Did I say that? Perhaps I missed it when I said that it was unethical; could you enlighten me? What I said was that the ethical implications were mindboggling, which is certainly true. That generally is the case with most advances in biotechnology.
Braedley wrote:They are by no means expendable, but other than that, how are they any different than these brain cells (and I use the term very loosely only because they are cells that are found in a brain)?. A collection of 25,000 neurons is expendable, because although it can do calculations, it still doesn't have the capacity of thought. It is by no means self aware. And just for reference, a human brain consists of about 100 billion neurons.
True, and you'll notice that I never complained about these experiments themselves. Besides any sorts of potential for flying biocomputers, there's simply the advancement of our knowledge of how neurochemistry works. I shouldn't have to stress how much good could come of a more sophisticated understanding of that.

However, this is still an ethical minefield. We don't know at what point a brain goes from non-thinking to thinking; in some sense, even these simple rat computers think. It's difficult to say what a cut off would be between the degrees of mental sophistication. Furthermore, we don't even know what conscious experience is in any but a phenomenological manner, and appeal to that usually just involves a lot of question begging. Even if we go on that, we don't know what it comes from, or how it affects the physical instantiation of our thought. Bottom line, we're on very shaky ground when it comes to what constitutes a person from a mental stand point.
NecronLord wrote:I can practically garuntee you that you've destroyed a living being with a larger brain than this fighter for fun or convinience. An ant has about a quarter of a million cells in its brain, and you've almost certainly conciously stepped on one when you didn't need to.
Again, people are misreading me, although admittedly I was unclear in my intent. Being alive has fairly little moral weight to it in my estimation; killing ants or the brain in this experiment or a human embryo all have almost no moral condemnation assigned to them. The research isn't unethical, and it may turn out that any biocomputers that come out of it are perfectly cut and dried in that respect as well. I'm pointing out that this, assuming that the research pans out, is going to become one of the big hot topics of debate in bioethics. Hence my saying that the implications boggle the mind, not that it's unethical.
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Post by Braedley »

Eris wrote:
Braedley wrote:So you think it's unethical to use avalanche dogs for search and rescue? There is still a good chance that another avalanche could fall on the whole team, leaving 3 or 4 times as many people trapped along with the dogs. What about police dogs? These animals are put into these high risk situations because they are trained to be able to do the tasks required of them.
Did I say that? Perhaps I missed it when I said that it was unethical; could you enlighten me? What I said was that the ethical implications were mindboggling, which is certainly true. That generally is the case with most advances in biotechnology.
The fact that you said it was worrisome, combined with you saying the implications were huge is what gave me the impression that you thought it was unethical.
Eris wrote:
Braedley wrote:They are by no means expendable, but other than that, how are they any different than these brain cells (and I use the term very loosely only because they are cells that are found in a brain)?. A collection of 25,000 neurons is expendable, because although it can do calculations, it still doesn't have the capacity of thought. It is by no means self aware. And just for reference, a human brain consists of about 100 billion neurons.
True, and you'll notice that I never complained about these experiments themselves. Besides any sorts of potential for flying biocomputers, there's simply the advancement of our knowledge of how neurochemistry works. I shouldn't have to stress how much good could come of a more sophisticated understanding of that.

However, this is still an ethical minefield. We don't know at what point a brain goes from non-thinking to thinking; in some sense, even these simple rat computers think. It's difficult to say what a cut off would be between the degrees of mental sophistication. Furthermore, we don't even know what conscious experience is in any but a phenomenological manner, and appeal to that usually just involves a lot of question begging. Even if we go on that, we don't know what it comes from, or how it affects the physical instantiation of our thought. Bottom line, we're on very shaky ground when it comes to what constitutes a person from a mental stand point.
I was refering to the short term implications, which are damn near zero. I will have to agree with you that the long term implications could potentially be enormous, especially if these biocomputers start to develope personalities (a precurser to sentience).
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Post by Eris »

Braedley wrote:The fact that you said it was worrisome, combined with you saying the implications were huge is what gave me the impression that you thought it was unethical.
As I noted, I was pretty unclear, and my standards for clarity are different to begin with. I'm used to writing in an academic philosophical context, which is notably different than a less regulated one like here. For that I apologise; it wasn't my intent to create confusion.
I was refering to the short term implications, which are damn near zero. I will have to agree with you that the long term implications could potentially be enormous, especially if these biocomputers start to develope personalities (a precurser to sentience).
Actually I myself hope we do start creating entities with personalities or some sort of identifiable thought processes. It'll help us to start narrowing down towards rigourous definitions of concepts like self-awareness and sentience. And despite how psychiatrists often act, we really don't know all that much when it comes to the weirder aspects of the mind/brain.
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Post by LordShaithis »

Really, does anyone have any idea how this one-tenth of an ant's brain manages to fly a simulator? It certainly can't understand what it's doing.
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Post by Xenophobe3691 »

LordShaithis wrote:Really, does anyone have any idea how this one-tenth of an ant's brain manages to fly a simulator? It certainly can't understand what it's doing.
Why do you need to understand what you're doing in order to do it?
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Post by General Zod »

Xenophobe3691 wrote:
LordShaithis wrote:Really, does anyone have any idea how this one-tenth of an ant's brain manages to fly a simulator? It certainly can't understand what it's doing.
Why do you need to understand what you're doing in order to do it?
Step back for a moment and re-read your question about 5 times. Tell me what's wrong with it.

Hint: In order to do some things, you have to be able to understand how to do them. You don't swim without understanding how to do so. You don't use a computer without understanding how to do so. You don't push the red button without understanding what it does. See the pattern here?
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Post by Xenophobe3691 »

General Zod wrote: Step back for a moment and re-read your question about 5 times. Tell me what's wrong with it.

Hint: In order to do some things, you have to be able to understand how to do them. You don't swim without understanding how to do so. You don't use a computer without understanding how to do so. You don't push the red button without understanding what it does. See the pattern here?
Abso-fucking-lutely nothing. How many math problems have you done, just following the rules, but not understanding why you're doing what you're doing, or what the ideas behind them are.

In HS physics, I used to use the position equations all the time. I had no fucking clue what the hell the terms meant, I just knew they worked. After Calculus and Calculus based Physics, I now understand what the hell is going on behind those funny coefficients.

Besides, my question was:
Why do you need to understand what you're doing in order to do it?
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Post by wolveraptor »

Some questions:
How does the brain get fed? Why does it choose to fly the plane straight rather than allow it to crash? I thought at first it might be because it likes to recieve stimuli, and dislikes it when the plane crashes so that it stops recieving stimuli, but then I realized it that it is beneath the concepts of "like" and "dislike". Maybe it is because the brain instinctually "wants" information to respond and react to.

I plan, of course, to put my brain into a kickass giant missile-shooting robot that runs around being awesome.
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Post by LordShaithis »

Xenophobe3691 wrote:
LordShaithis wrote:Really, does anyone have any idea how this one-tenth of an ant's brain manages to fly a simulator? It certainly can't understand what it's doing.
Why do you need to understand what you're doing in order to do it?
Because you need to know that you're attached to a flight simulator, and not a crash simulator? How does it know it's "job" isn't to crash as spectacularly as possible?
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Post by Xenophobe3691 »

LordShaithis wrote: Because you need to know that you're attached to a flight simulator, and not a crash simulator? How does it know it's "job" isn't to crash as spectacularly as possible?
I was referring to the brain actually needing to know that it was in a simulator in order to be able to learn to fly.
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Post by Darth Wong »

LordShaithis wrote:Really, does anyone have any idea how this one-tenth of an ant's brain manages to fly a simulator? It certainly can't understand what it's doing.
All it's doing, according to what I saw in the article, is learning how to keep the plane flying straight and level. This might seem like a fantastic breakthrough if not for a very old device called the "autopilot" which does exactly the same thing.
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Post by LordShaithis »

Yeah, I'm just curious to get a better handle on how this thing is directed than the throwaway "electrodes and computer" line in the article. If you want to build a dish-brain to fly an airplane, and I want to build one that does nothing but crash for some bizzare reason, what will we do differently?
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Darth Wong wrote: All it's doing, according to what I saw in the article, is learning how to keep the plane flying straight and level. This might seem like a fantastic breakthrough if not for a very old device called the "autopilot" which does exactly the same thing.
Give it time. Neural nets work far better at complex tasks than your average autopilot. If you can get these things to learn complex moves and to follow orders, then you've got the most powerful computer this side of quantum that can be used in everything from flying to cars to super soldiers.

My god. I'm getting a hard on just thinking of the possibilities.
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Post by Ender »

Teah them to crash instead, put them in missiles. How do you like those smart bombs?
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Post by Grand Moff Yenchin »

From what I gather. The simulator sends various signals to the dish-brain. The neurons fire when they're simulated, sending various signals back. The researchers figure out the relationship and interface the signals.

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