The Culture vs DBZ

[SirNitram]

This thread is a perfect example of fanboy debating. Find the biggest number, no matter how inconsistant, and force everything else to fit it so you can declare victory.

[Yogi]

This thread is a perfect example of fanboy debating. Find the biggest number, no matter how inconsistant, and force everything else to fit it so you can declare victory.

Unfortunatly, there is no other reliable way to judge DBZ feats. What other values are you going to use?

Power up effect? Vegeta and Nappa both power up in an ostentious way, while Goku's powerups are more subtile. Not a good indication.
Anime Speed? If you want to beleive that, then no one ever gets any faster, despite numerious statements to the contrary.
How far someone goes flying? Again, no good. Depends on the relative strength between the two characters.
Damage to environemnt? Nappa was blasting huge gashes in the earth, but Kui was barely making scratches.
Vulnerability to normal weapons? We passed "shurgs off entire army" quite a while ago.

In addition to being inconsistant, such effects are also extremely difficult to measure.

So what do we have left? A stated attack by a character against an inanimate object with a clear result. Unlike the previous examples, it is an attack spedifically directed against something inanimate, as opposed to being against another z-fighter.

If there is some other value for you to base your calculations on, then please let me hear it.

[SirNitram]

How about clocking the movement of a blast across an area with humans reacting to it?

Oh, wait, that'd ruin your precious needs to have Culture-level reaction speeds. What a fucking pity.

We can see dust settle during the fights. So it's taking at least realtime, if not LONGER. But you just want to handwave that away to fit your one unusual case so you can get the desired results.

Fucking fanboy.

[Yogi]

How about clocking the movement of a blast across an area with humans reacting to it?

Source and situation please.

We can see dust settle during the fights. So it's taking at least realtime, if not LONGER. But you just want to handwave that away to fit your one unusual case so you can get the desired results.

It seems like you're using the Anime (which you are free to do, I'll just have to use another set of calcs, as well as break out Janemba and Brolly). If you are using the Manga (or if you're going by most of the dust setting scenes in the Anime) it doesn't take place when the action is occuring, but when the person is standing there, wondering if he actually won by smashing his opponent into a huge cloud of dust (his opponent is always alive).

[SirNitram]

If we're using the Manga, then what's to say the shot to the moon didn't take several hours? As the Manga-proponents say, there's no definitive timescale there..

As I said. You are picking an extremely unusual event and holding it up as some sort of standard. This isn't honest debating by any stretch of the mind.

[Yogi]

If we're using the Manga, then what's to say the shot to the moon didn't take several hours? As the Manga-proponents say, there's no definitive timescale there..

Hence my use of conservative figures.

In the case of Master Roshi vs. Moon, there was a flash from his Kamehameha, people shielded their eyes, and when they opened them again the moon was no more. So the beam couldn't have been "in the air" for long (otherwise, they would be able to see it en route to the moon) The figure I used was 20 seconds, a VERY long time for people to have their eyes shielded after the blast had finished firing.

In the case of Piccolo vs. Moon, Piccolo fired the blast, and was then hit with the shockwave from the Moon going boom before he even lowered his arm. True, he could have simply held his arm there for several hours. Then again, the asteroid could have been hollow . . .

As I said. You are picking an extremely unusual event and holding it up as some sort of standard. This isn't honest debating by any stretch of the mind.

Who is to say it's unusual? It's the ONLY times a serious attack has been used against ianimate objects. Other times, the attacks were against other fighters.

It's like an ISD vaporising an asteroid. Prove that it was not an unusual event. You can't, but there is no reason to beleive it is. It's certainly better than measuring it's performnce against other SW ships.

[Yogi]

Oh yeah, before I forget.

1) Saiya-jin Space Pods are clearly capable of flying inter-system distances at FTL speeds.
2) Kaiou-sama was able to easily search the entire galaxy, pinpoint the two space pods, and calculate their speed. Therefore, Kaiou-sama can track FTL objects.
3) When Goku was fighting Freiza on Planet Namek, despite the search area being reduced from one galaxy to one planet, Kaiou-sama could not track Goku and Freiza fighting. Therefore, they were fighting at faster than a speed he could track.
4) Therefore, Goku and Freiza = FTL.

[Ghost Rider]

Oh yeah, before I forget.

1) Saiya-jin Space Pods are clearly capable of flying inter-system distances at FTL speeds.
2) Kaiou-sama was able to easily search the entire galaxy, pinpoint the two space pods, and calculate their speed. Therefore, Kaiou-sama can track FTL objects.
3) When Goku was fighting Freiza on Planet Namek, despite the search area being reduced from one galaxy to one planet, Kaiou-sama could not track Goku and Freiza fighting. Therefore, they were fighting at faster than a speed he could track.
4) Therefore, Goku and Freiza = FTL.

I see.

So

1. Pods go faster than light(proof of this...time dilation, span, distance?)

2. Proof again because the second requires the first.

3. But if the first is true he CAN detect FTL. So are you now saying that he CANNOT?!

4. Since #1 has yet to be proven, and 2 require number 1...and even funnier number 3 actually disputes number 2.

Any more undeniable pieces of proof?

[Yogi]

1. Pods go faster than light(proof of this...time dilation, span, distance?)

Complex proof:
Piccolo's ship went from Earth to Jupiter before Bulma could get up after being knocked down. That would be faster than the 2 hours it would take light to do so. It takes the same ship 30 days to get to Namek. Goku's ship makes it in six days (and Kaiou-sama could also track Goku's ship).

Simple proof: Star systems are light years apart (you do know this, don't you) and it takes days for the space ships to travel from place to place. I think that's faster than light.

2. Proof again because the second requires the first.

3. But if the first is true he CAN detect FTL. So are you now saying that he CANNOT?!

No, I'm saying that Goku and Freiza are moving at a speed faster than Kaiou-sama can detect, and Kaiou-sama can detect at FTL speeds. Therefore, their speed is an even faster FTL.

Any more undeniable pieces of proof?

There's Piccolo stating that Radditz was moving FTL in the Dubbed version, but that isn't really considered cannon so I'll disregard that. Then there's Brolly wiping out a galaxy in five seconds (if you wish to take the Anime) but then it's not entirely clear if he unleashes a huge blast that wiped out the galaxy in five seconds, released a large swarm of small blasts that traveled to each star system and wiped them out in five seconds, or he actually traveled personally to each system and wiped them all out in five seconds. Evidence tends to favor either the first or the second.
Then there's Dragonball GT where things REALLY get out of hand.

However, if one is only going by the Manga, then this is pretty much all I can think of right now.

[consequences]

If you are going to claim that every other thing we know about our universe doesn't apply in dBZ, how the hell do you get off complaining when we do the same thing? The systems in DBZ could easily be very close together.

[Yogi]

If you are going to claim that every other thing we know about our universe doesn't apply in dBZ, how the hell do you get off complaining when we do the same thing? The systems in DBZ could easily be very close together.

You're right, but if you'll read closely, that's not what I said. I said that if something contradicts real live physics, that's FINE because it happens all the time in Sci Fi. See if you can spot why those two statements are VERY diffrent.

[consequences]

you know, you really shuld post scans of the relevant pages from the manga to prove your point, all I have to go on is the anime, which biases my viewpoint more than a little.

[Yogi]

you know, you really shuld post scans of the relevant pages from the manga to prove your point, all I have to go on is the anime, which biases my viewpoint more than a little.

I would, except that I only have a few volumes of the Manga. THe rest I read in bookstores, and I don't think they'd let me borrow the book to make scans of.
However, post what you desire confirmation of, and if I can't get you a scan, I'll at least try to get you the volume and page number.

[consequences]

In any case, my view on Radditz dodging is that he was dodging piccolo while in the process of firing, not that he dodged the enrgy beam itself. its the same principle as doding gunfire in real life, you move out of the path of fire, you don't try to doge the bullet in midflight.
Are we agreed that the manga and the anime shall constitute two seperate universes, and that the one being used should be specified at the start of any given thread? I have serious issues with the characters in the anime, but the manga doesn't piss me off nearly as much so far.

[Yogi]

Look at the picture.

1: Radditz is not moving.
2: His eyes are bulging out in surprise.
3: He was in utter shock.
4: Piccolo thought the blast would hit him (and name one instance when a DBZer could not track his own attack.)

However, I will post scans later to confirm what I said.

[Yogi]

Remember, read from RIGHT to LEFT.

http://www-scf.usc.edu/~chih/PR1.jpg
As you can see, Radditz is preoccupied with attacking Goku, and looking rather pissed, when suddenly....

http://www-scf.usc.edu/~chih/PR2.jpg
Piccolo saves the day! Radditz is looking EXTREMELY surprised and utterly shocked. This was NOT something he was expecting when he landed. And now, the next episode...

http://www-scf.usc.edu/~chih/PR3.jpg
Basically a recap. Notive Radditz looking SHOCKED in the picture

http://www-scf.usc.edu/~chih/PR4.jpg
On the right, you get the pic I posted previously. On the left, you see Radditz's face looking determined. NOW he tries to dodge.

http://www-scf.usc.edu/~chih/PR5.jpg
People can always track his own attack. Before the flash, Piccolo was sure the blast would hit. When it turns out it missed, he was VERY surprised.

[consequences]

That recap confuses things, to start with it looks like Piccolo fired immediately after saying now, an don the next page, he waits until saying meet the light of death. From my point of view it looks like he could be moving before Piccolo fired still, with the background blurring around him before piccolo shous "NOW!"

[Yogi]

So you're saying he moved (PR2) stopped (PR4) and started moving again (PR4)? In PR3, it looks as if Radditz was standing still. In PR2 the first frame with speed lines he is clearly not moving, the second one with speed lines he could be moving.

To summerize

Evidence that Radditz was standing still until the picture on the left side of PR4
PR2, first pic. PR3, bottem left pic. PR4, right pic.
Evidence that Radditz was moving beforehand.
PR2, second pic (possible)

Speed lines do not necessarily denote movement, you see speed lines on Piccolo when he's standing still.

It is possible? Yeees it's possible. Is it likely? Doesn't look it.

[consequences]

But the entire scene is rendered questionable by the shift of the moment of firing.

[consequences]

Can we just agree to disagree, I can accept an uber high end DBZ from the manga, even if I don't see it that way myself. I will argue to the death over the lousiness of characters from the anime however.

[Yogi]

Do what you want with the Anime. The Anime is too confusing to draw any sort of conclusion. Goku goes from taking punches from Freiza, gets stronger, then shouts when an elephant steps on his hand.

[consequences]

That's a lot of the reason it pisses me off so much, that and the rampant unending stupidity. I'm just going to consider the DBZ manga to be the true sequel to Dragonball, and consider DBZ anime to be crap.
Except for movie number 5, Cooler kicked ass. :