For those particularly interested in the SW-Wiki:

Tribun · Post by **Tribun** » 2005-11-22 05:38pm

So which version is currently online?
His or the logical one?
And he really seems to be a fanatic, maybe he has made a alarm sofortware that warns him as soon as the site is edited. Othwise I can't explain the fast editing jobs he does.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2005-11-22 05:49pm

Judging from people who's debated with him for years on the TFN boards, he keeps coming back every so often with the same old Star Destroyer "controversy".

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2005-11-24 01:35pm

Before it disappears again:

There is no fundamental universal law to dictate warship classification: combat vessels are given designations as seems most appropriate to express their specific, unique role - a role that is often multifaceted, and generally evolves over time. Moreover, the designers who make them, the military personnel who serve aboard them, the bureaucrats responsible for keeping administrative track of them, the press media, and the opponents who face them in battle might all know a single class or type by very different designations.

In a galaxy-spanning civilization, the basic semantic problems are compounded by the fact that spacefaring technology is distributed among a wide range of species-groups, planetary governments and interstellar corporations, all with their own idea of what the 'proper' terminology should be — leading to a wild variety of distinct warship-classification systems being in use at any one time. What might pass as a Dreadnaught to the Ugors would barely be ranked as a corvette by Corellians, Alderaanians or the federal authorities based on Coruscant — and an obsolescent one at that.

That said, some sense can be made of basic ship-classification patterns, and this page will attempt to summarize what can be known from the evidence at hand.

The standard Imperial classifications:
In spite of the above caveat, an official classification system did exist, inherited from the Old Republic. It was used by the Empire and the New Republic with certain revisions, such as the downgrading of former heavy warships to accommedate newer designs. This system remained relatively static up to the Yuuzhan Vong invasion, and it was both wide-ranging and influential. The most basic division was between Starfighters — small, fast space-planes with a crew of 1 or 2 — and Capital ships more than 100 meters long; the subdivisions of capital ship classes could be outlined as follows:

Systems Patrol Craft — less than 150m long, with a crew of 4–20, and sublight propulsion only.
Fast Attack Vessels — less than 150m long, with a crew of 4 to 20; hyperdrive-capable, but requiring frequent resupply.
Corvettes — multi-role ships with a crew of 40 to 200, longer-range but less manoeuvrable than patrol craft and fast attack vessels.
Frigates — ships up to at least 752m in length, with a crew of up to 1,000, normally used to provide support to larger ships.
Cruisers — all ships with a length of 400m upwards, and more than 1,000 crewers. These used to be major combat warships in galactic society, but as the Clone Wars introduced larger ships, many became downgraded to accommedate the ships that outclassed them. These ships would often retain their original names, even when becoming little more than anti-pirate vessels, patrol ships and frigates supporting larger vessels.
Star Destroyers — warships generally larger than most cruisers. First introduced during the Clone Wars, they were technically rated as large cruisers, but generally treated as a distinct sub-category. The 'Star Destroyer'-term would come to cover a wide range of warships (see below).
As a note-worthy side-category, Starfighter Carriers, acting as support ships for the Galactic Empire and Rebel Alliance during the Galactic Civil War, would later on be considered by the New Republic as a further seperate subdivision.

In addition, it can be noted that the basic "cruiser" designation was very broad; under the Empire, it encompassed everything up to and including the massive Executor-class Star Dreadnoughts, the largest warships in commission during the key years of the Galactic Civil War, and excluded only a few "bizarrities" such as the Death Star battlestations.

In part, this reflects the fact that the pre-Clone Wars Old Republic's sector governments saw no need for warships larger than the 600m Dreadnaught-class cruiser, and the larger Star Destroyers, which began to spread from the most developed regions in the Clone Wars, were regarded by local governments as essentially a new class, their officials and analysts unwilling to quite dissociate them from the old cruiser designation.

In practice, a length of about 850-900m might be considered the break-off point between sector-scale cruisers and galactic-scale Star Destroyers, suiting the CW-GCW eras. However, insistence on over-rigid definition would prove to be unwise, as reality would always slip out from under the rigid matrix of any abstract system. Thus the continued re-evaluation of warships would still be necessary, in a galaxy plagued by war and the constant evolution of space combat systems.

Star Destroyers:
One factor that sometimes causes confusion is the fact that in many navies, destroyers are small, fast ships — and they are certainly no larger than heavy cruisers; but under the standard system outlined above, "Star Destroyers" are distinctly larger than other cruisers, and the name is further differentiated by being capitalized.

In fact, "Star Destroyer" has become a general term covering most of the Empire's large, dagger-shaped warships, many of whom first served the Galactic Republic. These caused quite a revolution during the Clone Wars, where they first saw wide-spread use, and would go on to become symbols of the Empire's oppressive nature. A 'Star' prefix is often attached to their official names, this was a naming-convention also used by other cultures and organizations relevant to a galactic scale of war.

Star Frigate - including ships of 752m. Although also used by Confederacy warships during the CW, both the Republic and the Empire would produce vessels of similar size, purpose and firepower. Even though Acclamator-type vessels were not considered Star Destroyers to begin with, ships in the Imperial 'frigate'-range would have this term used to describe them as well.
Star Destroyer - including ships of 900m, 1137m and 1600m. Many of these would serve as destroyer/cruiser hybrids, in the historical naval sense, by being able to both operate independently and escort other vessels. Some classes were also capable of serving as command ships for localized fleets of lesser vessels.
Star Cruiser - including Imperial ships on the size-scale right above Star Destroyers. Also used to describe the broad specter of Mon Calamari warships, similarly to the use of 'Star Destroyer' when referring to Imperial vessels. This can be attributed to the naming-conventions used by different manufacturers and cultures, as described above.
Star Battlecruiser - including at least one "multi-mile" class, more than 1600m and probably at least 3200m long. All examples mentioned in the Republic/Imperial fleets have either come from Kuat Drive Yards or had a connection to their design-esthetics. Judging from Kuati manufacturing conventions, their battlecruisers are intimidating vessels of greater power than Imperial destroyers, and would often be flanked by them during missions or escort larger vessels themselves.
Star Battleship - Although 'Star Dreadnoughts' have been shown throughout many conflicts, 'Star Battleships' have hardly been mentioned other than in passing. The only time an Imperial battleship's abilities were mentioned, the focus lay on its firepower, which was deemed slightly weaker than that of Star Dreadnoughts.
Star Dreadnought - including one class rated as the equal of about 200 Venator-class Star Destroyers and also used as a designation for Executor-class vessels. Star Dreadnoughts were the ultimate warships manufactured by the Galactic Republic and the Galactic Empire. They occupied the upper scale of the 'battleship'-definition, being equipped with heavy guns and the heaviest armor.
Utilizing all available sources, both written and visual, the arrangement of the various "Star" designations in a strict, Imperial hierarchy of scale, is quite logical. Even though "Star Destroyer" being the only term used by the centuries-old galactic system shared by the major powers, it does cover all of the Empire's heavy hitters, as evidenced by its use for several ships of various sizes. As for the internal hierarchy amongst Imperial vessels, the 'Star'-system is quite consistent in its use.

Function-based designations:
In practice, many warship designations include prefixes which modify the basic designation - "patrol destroyer", "heavy cruiser", "escort carrier", etc.; and it is possible to assemble a complex list of designations based on function and designation rather than size. In alphabetical order, these could include:

Assault Carrier: A starfighter carrier of moderate size but no heavy weaponry.
Assault Cruiser: A multipurpose cruiser optimized for planetary-assault missions but capable of meeting the various threats that may be encountered on them.
Attack Cruiser: A cruiser with heavy beam-weaponry emplacements and a large starfighter compliment.
Battlecruiser: A large ship with a balance between speed and armament, perhaps prioritizing these features over protection.
Battleship: A large vessel with a primary purpose of ship-to-ship combat.
Bulk Cruiser: A basic patrol cruiser for backwater areas, slow and lightly-armed, but sizeable and with reasonable range.
Corvette: A small vessel with large engines, generally light armament, armor, and fighters. Often has VIP transport quarters, and can serve in that role.
Cruiser: A ship that strikes a balance between firepower, speed, shielding, and fighters, optimized for self-reliance.
Destroyer: A large warship, often optimized around attack rather than defensive capability.
Escort Carrier: A small carrier designed to carry fighters in a fashion optimized for convoy protection or convoy raids.
Fleet Carrier: A large carrier designed to carry the main fighter complement of a fleet.
Frigate: A ship capable of killing both fighters and capital ships. Often with a specialized purpose: command, medical, etc.
Gunship: A very small vessel with very powerful weaponry, designed to take out much larger ships.
Heavy Cruiser: A ship still in the Cruiser range, but with a greater emphasis on shielding and weapons, and less on speed.
Interdictor: Any vessel designed to interdict a ship from hyperspace.
Light Cruiser: A ship still in the Cruiser range, but with a greater emphasis on speed, and sometimes fighters, and less of an emphasis on shielding and weapons.
Star Cruiser: An all purpose naval vessel, designed for combat at both the ship-to-ship and fighter level. The backbone of many fleets.
Star Defender: An outsized Star Cruiser, designed as a flagship and a command ship. Only ever built by the New Republic
Star Destroyer: A mid-sized warship on the galactic scale (or a large warship on a sector scale) with ground troops and the capability to perform a planetary bombardment.
Super Star Destroyer: slang for anything larger than a Star Destroyer.
This system is in some senses functionally more effective, as it takes into account the fact that ships in the same size range may have widely different capabilities — a problem only partially accounted for in the standard system with the three designations for ships below 150m — patrol vessel, fast attack craft, and corvette. On the flip side, this is a vastly more complicated system, not simply because of the large number of terms involved: different ships can fall under as many as nine classifications, and the complex semantics involved require a large amount of subjective analysis. The above list is merely one speculative way of organizing the terminology and identifying salient features of the different classes involved.

In addition, simply systemizing by function does not take into account the fact that ships sharing names and designations, could very well belong to vastly different scales. For instance, categorizing a Dreadnaught-class heavy cruiser and an Executor-class Star Dreadnought as being similar because they share words in their name and are both heavily armed, does not take away the fact that the second is dozens of times larger than the first and subsequently outguns it. Therefore, function-based designations should at least be compared and/or corroberated with other types of measurement.

Behind the scenes:
The "standard Imperial classifications of capital ships" cited above were introduced on page 50 of the Rebel Alliance Sourcebook, and further refined in later West End Games RPG resources like the Heir to the Empire Sourcebook. This system provided a clear, canonical scheme of warship designation, in which the "cruiser" bracket was modified to include a "Star Destroyer" subset, which in turn was explicitly extended up to the Executor-class design. It also provided the explanation for different (and sometimes inappropriate) naming-practices around the galaxy, and became very influential in Expanded Universe material.

In addition, a more internal classification of larger Imperial vessels would be introduced to complement the older system. This took into account the vast differences in both size and shape of the ships constituting the long-running series of dagger-shaped vessels.

For whatever reason, the first system is not significantly discussed by the influential Star Wars Technical Commentaries fan website — somewhat oddly, inasmuch as the website covers the issue of warship designation extensively, and cites the sources in which this system is elaborated repeatedly. Instead, SWTC insists on applying a system of real-world warship designations, claiming that (http://theforce.net/swtc/warships.html#nomenclature) "the sequence of labels always remains the same in terms of ascending size and power of vessels".

This claim may be believed in good faith by the website and its supporters, but in reality, SWTC claims for this specific system a far wider validity than it in fact posesses. Historically, a multiplicity of different designation systems have been used — some subtly differentiated, some sharply at odds with each other. Only in one brief time-period have all the terms used at SWTC been used concurrently to designate ships serving in the same navy — in the British Royal Navy in the years 1942–1948, the dates being defined by the revival of the "frigate" designation for a new class very different from previous types to bear this name, and the scrapping of the last battlecruiser. Throughout this timeframe, an additional designation of "sloop" also existed, applied to a class of larger and more powerful escorts, placed between frigates and destroyers in size and tonnage; but in 1950, the RN's corvettes and sloops were all absorbed into the frigate designation.

All modern surface-combat warships are classed as either corvettes, frigates, destroyers or cruisers, but the usage of these terms has involved a fair amount of overlap, ambiguity, and reclassification. To take just one example, until 1975, the US Navy used the designations "escort", "destroyer" and "frigate" in ascending order of size, and then replaced them with "frigate", "destroyer" and "cruiser" respectively — although the coninuing overlap is shown by the fact that only new USN cruiser class built since then, the Ticonderoga-class ships, were originally designed as destroyers.

Moreover, quite apart from the problems caused by the wide variations in historical naval terminolgy, many fans can see no rational reason for the imposition of a rigid and abstract systematization with no canonical backing, when in-universe designations and designation-systems already exist in established canon. SWTC's approach compells its adherents to dismiss the majority of canonical designations as "incorrect" when they contradict the definitions chosen by the website — the canonically unsupported idea that a Star Destroyer is a "mere" destroyer is regarded in some circles as particularly contentious.

When SWTC's maintainer Curtis Saxton was contracted by Dorling Kindersley to write the text for two official Incredible Cross-Sections books and serve as a consultant on Inside the Worlds &mdsh; Star Wars Trilogy, he introduced designations similar to those from SWTC in the official literature: these amount to the "Star" designations discussed above &emdash; although it is alleged that "higher ups" at LFL selected the "Star Dreadnought" designation given to the Executor in over Saxton's preferred "battlecruiser".

While it can be understood that Star Wars fans may wish to define ship classifications in the ways that seem most appropriate to them, just as people in the fictional galaxy of the saga are said to use different designation systems according to taste, issues of canonicity and fidelity to the existing materials mean that, at least for now the "standard systems" used by various factions and species remain exactly that.

Sources:
The Technical Book of Science Fiction Films, Geoffrey Mandel, 1984, New Media Publishing.
Rebel Alliance Sourcebook
"Following are the standard Imperial classifications of capital ships; with some variations, these are used by the Alliance and by other space faring species. It should be noted, however, that the distinction between vessel types if often muddy, and individual corporations or navies may give their ships wholly inappropriate classifications." - p.50
Imperial Sourcebook
Heir to the Empire Sourcebook
"A specific sub-division of the classification combat starship is that of cruiser. Cruisers were once the backbone of the Old Republic Fleet. The original designation was for the largest class of ships in service, and as a general guideline, they were equipped with heavy weapons, tractor beam projectors and at least one squadron of starfighters. Now, as the Imperial Star Destroyers completely outclass the cruisers, the definition has been loosened to accommodate any combat-oriented ship over 400 meters long and emphasizing heavy weaponry over starfighters (Star Destroyers technically fit within this definition, but due to their enormous firepower, they are considered their own sub-category). Still, some cruisers are quite large, and many types fill important roles in both the Imperial Fleet and the New Republic." - p. 118
Attack of the Clones - Incredible Cross-Sections
Revenge of the Sith - Incredible Cross-Sections
"The Trade Federation protects its position in remote galactic regions by placing embargoes on arms sales to planetary governments. As a result, Utapauns rely upon self-made, downscaled ships - their biggest anti-pirate Rendili Dreadnaught is one-fifth the size of a Trade Federation Battleship." - p. 28
"Sienar will also produce the Empire's primary space-superiority craft, the TIE (Twin Ion Engine) fighter, as well as downscaled warships built to patrol remote sectors." - p. 31
Inside the Worlds of Star Wars Trilogy
The Complete Locations of Star Wars
"Eventually designated the Executor-class after the vessel assigned to Vader's personal use and commanded by Admiral Ozzel, it is usually referred to in rebel slang as a "Super Star Destroyer" -- a term that covers many warship classes bigger than a Star Destroyer, from Star Cruisers to ultimate Star Dreadnaughts like Executor. Over one hundred times more massive than a common Star Destroyer and almost 12 times as long, the Executor bristles with more than 5000 turbolasers and ion cannons, and carries wings of star fighters and two pre assembled garrison bases." - p. 47 (ITW:OT) p. 175 (CLOSW)
Empire at War

External links:
Imperial Acclamator in EaW: called a 'cruiser' and designated as a 'frigate'. (http://www.eaw-fr.com/modules/view_screen.php?n=1546)
The OS describing the Dreadnaught-class as outdated and only fit for lesser work in the Empire. (http://www.starwars.com/databank/starship/dreadnaught/)

[[Categories: Star Wars culture]]

Too tired to sort out everything on the Behind the Scenes page. Hope my email to the admins got through and they actually take a look at it now.

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2005-11-30 05:23pm

McEwok's pissing me off at TF.net again. VT-16, do you have any idea about when a decision will be made about the Wiki article?

The Original Nex · Post by **The Original Nex** » 2005-11-30 05:36pm

Who is this "Nebulax" character? He seems to be a real Databank worshiper who won't actually address any points in a debate.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2005-11-30 06:21pm

VT-16, do you have any idea about when a decision will be made about the Wiki article?

I have no idea. It was locked on the 25th, but your guess is as good as mine when QuentinGeorge will actually reach a decision.

So far, they're keeping my last version up, while editing is locked down. Harhar, a minute victory. =P

He seems to be a real Databank worshiper who won't actually address any points in a debate.

Nebulax is actually nice, once you've convinced him that you're viewpoint is better supported. You could throw a mountain of evidence at McEwok (Arkady Hodge), and all he'd say is "I don't read it as that" or write in the articles that "although this interpretation is probably well-meant, it is also misguided" or something. He's somewhat tolerable now, as long as you don't get into any SD debates with him. =/

The Original Nex · Post by **The Original Nex** » 2005-11-30 06:51pm

Nebulax is actually nice, once you've convinced him that you're viewpoint is better supported.

Maybe he's just bothersome because I'm new over there. He seems to have put up a wall of ignorance despite the indirect filmic evidence and logic that not all Droidekas have shields.

NRS Guardian · Post by **NRS Guardian** » 2005-12-01 05:03pm

One thing I read in the latest article is that the OR had no ships larger then the 600m Dreadnaught, yet the EGV&V and other sources mention the Invincible class Dreadnaght, a 2km long ship used by the OR 3000 years before the empire. Also KOTOR2 has that Sith ship which looks to be larger than 600m. So it seems the OR at one time or another had ships large than a dreadnaught heavy cruiser.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2005-12-01 05:21pm

Yeah, I had nothing to do with that particular piece of information, I just let it stay. It will have to be changed once the article is editable again.

Xess · Post by **Xess** » 2005-12-01 06:37pm

NRS Guardian wrote:One thing I read in the latest article is that the OR had no ships larger then the 600m Dreadnaught, yet the EGV&V and other sources mention the Invincible class Dreadnaght, a 2km long ship used by the OR 3000 years before the empire. Also KOTOR2 has that Sith ship which looks to be larger than 600m. So it seems the OR at one time or another had ships large than a dreadnaught heavy cruiser.

I did some very very rough scaling of the Leviathan in KOTOR and I got a length of 800 -1600 meters for a 20 meter diamter Ebon Hawk, 1200-2400 for a 30 meter EH and 1600-3200 meters for a 40 meter EH.

Darth Nihilius' ship is around twice as big as a Leviathan-class so it's 1600-6400 meters in length.

NRS Guardian · Post by **NRS Guardian** » 2005-12-01 06:58pm

It could be that the OR did have ships of comparable size to Imperial ships-of-the-line up until 1000 years before Yavin. But after the last Sith War the reformation of the Republic mentioned in the NEC, that saw more power given to the sectors and allowed them to maintain their own fleets, resulted in a federal navy unable to build ships larger than 600m, either due to legislation or lack of funding.
However, the very fact that hundreds of 3000+ meter battleships blockading a world is no big deal or threat. Implies either that the federal navy does have comparable ships, or that it can reliably call upon sector fleets such as those maintained by Kuat or Corellia to enforce its will upon entities that get out of line like the TF.

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2005-12-03 02:13pm

Update:

QuentinGeorge wrote:Sorry for the delay guys. You both put up fairly persuasive arguments, and I've got to admit that I have little knowledge in this area. I'm leaning towards VT-16, but only because he seems to be incorporating more sources into his version. I think I might need to get another admin in with some better understanding of the topic.

It looks like we may be winning, but QuentinGeorge really doesn't know much about the topic. Let's hope the guy he goes to for a second opinion isn't a dumbass.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2005-12-03 03:15pm

To specify: A dumbass who pays attention to two sources only, and "forgets" parts of the quotes used.

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2005-12-04 12:59pm

QuentinGeorge has chosen to go to Sparqman for help. McEwok (Arkady Hodge) has already tried to fill his head with bullshit, but I've responded with a plead that Sparqman read the entire article and all our quotes.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2005-12-10 12:02pm

Who is this Jack nebulax character? He's being a real dick in the Victory class and Executrix entries, apparently claiming that the book is not much of a source.

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2005-12-10 12:43pm

Ender wrote:Who is this Jack nebulax character? He's being a real dick in the Victory class and Executrix entries, apparently claiming that the book is not much of a source.

Are you Lowkey?

Anyway, for the Executrix article, just post the exact quote stating that it's a VSD to shut him up.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2005-12-10 12:50pm

Wait, the Executrix is a Victory-class destroyer?

Wasn't it McEwok (Arkady Hodge) who first claimed it was the first Imperator-class destroyer?

I'm glad I didn't answer is proposal to "cooperate" on articles. Fucker.

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2005-12-10 02:06pm

VT-16 wrote:Wait, the Executrix is a Victory-class destroyer?

Wasn't it McEwok (Arkady Hodge) who first claimed it was the first Imperator-class destroyer?

I'm glad I didn't answer is proposal to "cooperate" on articles. Fucker.

From what I read on the Executrix's discussion page, it was referred to as the Exactor's "older sibling." As far as I know, it was never explicitly stated to be the first ISD (all we know is that the newer Exactor is the 2nd) In a later passage, the Executrix was leading an attack, and the book said that VSDs were attacking. The rationalization would be that "older sibling" meant older, but similar ship class, not sister ship.

Of course, you know which interpretation McEwok (Arkady Hodge) is in favor of. He'll go with anything that shows ship classes not being named after their first ship, so he can go back to calling the Executor-class "Super Star Destroyer" (never mind what ITW said).

EDIT: BTW, did you read my debate with McEwok (Arkady Hodge) at TF.net (I wouldn't blame you for not wanting to wade through that much shit)? I couldn't believe the BSing and grasping for straws that McEwok (Arkady Hodge) was willing to do in an attempt to dismiss Saxton's canon writings:

-Star Destroyer, Cruiser, and Dreadnaught might not be size-related classifications, but SHAPE related classifications. "Star Cruiser" could just mean a round, rod-shaped ship. Never mind that ITW stated a limit on Destroyer size, and that Star Cruisers are often called "Super Star Destroyer" in slang. I shot him down even more by linking to a picture of the Bakura-class Star Destroyer, which is definately not dagger shaped (although McEwok (Arkady Hodge) still reached and tried to say that it kind of was).

-Star Dreadnaughts could be weirdo ships that are just large torpedo platforms designed for coastal defense. Yes, he completely pulled this out of his ass. Forget about the fact that the Executor was a Star Dreadnaught.

-Carracks and Dreadnaughts are comparable to the Venator. Why? Because the rpg game mechanics don't give them that much fewer heavy turbolaser batteries. Forget about the possibility that not all turbolasers are the same strength, or that the Venator has a much bigger reactor.

-The Munificent's 66,200 TERATON cannon isn't very impressive for being able to shoot through a 10-km battlestation's shields, because turbolasers are supposed to take down shields.

-The Katana Fleet of Rendili Dreadnaughts can probably own a Mandator. The same Mandator that can engage 1,000 Recusants, or about 200 VSDs.

McEwok (Arkady Hodge) hasn't replied for several days since I ripped his crappy arguments apart. If he doesn't come back in a couple more days, I'm going to assume he ran away. Since this debate was supposed to settle the Ship classification article, do you think it should be brought up at Wiki?

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2005-12-10 02:22pm

VT-16 wrote:Wait, the Executrix is a Victory-class destroyer?

Wasn't it McEwok (Arkady Hodge) who first claimed it was the first Imperator-class destroyer?

I'm glad I didn't answer is proposal to "cooperate" on articles. Fucker.

Its referred to as an older sibling of the Exactor. however, that is different from being a sister ship. Further, on page 279 it is said that Victory class SDs are attacking Kashyyyk, supporting that it is a Victory.
Further, we know from HttE that Tarkin led the sacking of Kashyyyk (Pelleaon served under him for it), and we know from the JAT that about this timeframe he commanded a Victory class. Circumstantial evidence supports it being a Victory class.

There is absolutley nothing supporting it being an Imperator.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2005-12-10 02:23pm

BTW, I like how since the ship classification article is locked, he's dragging the fight over into other articles like the Vindicator class one.

Hodges, will you never learn?

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2005-12-10 03:00pm

My reasoning for putting 'frigate' on the Vindicators (which I'm sure he's erased by now) is that the Immobiliser 418 cruiser is designated a frigate in EAW and it's design came from the Vindicator. Furthermore, we have the bigger Acclamator and Munificent cruisers being designated as 'frigates' (in the Munificent's case, Star Frigate. Oh there's that nasty 'Star' prefix he hates so much)...

I'd say post a link to the debate, whenever the 'ship classification' page comes back online. -___-

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2005-12-10 05:39pm

how do you create new articles?

EDIT: NM, have it now

How do you stick a link to a new article on a category page? I just created Flak Guns and want to stick it in starship weapons

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2005-12-10 07:27pm

At the bottom of your article, write

[[Category: Category name]]

For example, you should write

[[Category:Ship weapons]]

at the bottom of your Flak guns article. Make sure you have the category name right. If your article qualifies for multiple categories, you can just list them one after another. For example, the Turbolaser article ends like this:

[[Category:Technology]]
[[Category:Ship weapons]]
[[Category:Emplacement weapons]]

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2005-12-10 07:45pm

yeah, made it work eventually. Anyone got anything for it?

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2005-12-10 07:52pm

Mickey wrote: -Star Destroyer, Cruiser, and Dreadnaught might not be size-related classifications, but SHAPE related classifications. "Star Cruiser" could just mean a round, rod-shaped ship. Never mind that ITW stated a limit on Destroyer size, and that Star Cruisers are often called "Super Star Destroyer" in slang. I shot him down even more by linking to a picture of the Bakura-class Star Destroyer, which is definately not dagger shaped (although McEwok (Arkady Hodge) still reached and tried to say that it kind of was).

Odd that the IH is a carrier/DESTROYER then.

-Star Dreadnaughts could be weirdo ships that are just large torpedo platforms designed for coastal defense. Yes, he completely pulled this out of his ass. Forget about the fact that the Executor was a Star Dreadnaught.

What is his basis for that? When have we ever heard that a dreadnaught is a torpedo platform?

-Carracks and Dreadnaughts are comparable to the Venator. Why? Because the rpg game mechanics don't give them that much fewer heavy turbolaser batteries. Forget about the possibility that not all turbolasers are the same strength, or that the Venator has a much bigger reactor.

Point to the damage values for the TLs in the games.

-The Munificent's 66,200 TERATON cannon isn't very impressive for being able to shoot through a 10-km battlestation's shields, because turbolasers are supposed to take down shields.

Yes, according to him TLs work by turning shields and such against themselves (and tractor beams, thats how they made the asteroids in ESB self destruct), thus Saxton's energy statements are wrong. Only blasterd so damage by energy transfer, and its very low so Saxton's statements abou the power of the reactor is wrong.

-The Katana Fleet of Rendili Dreadnaughts can probably own a Mandator. The same Mandator that can engage 1,000 Recusants, or about 200 VSDs.

Well according to him Dreadnaughts are equal to Venators, and Venators are on par with a Victory class, so in his delusions that works.

McEwok (Arkady Hodge) hasn't replied for several days since I ripped his crappy arguments apart. If he doesn't come back in a couple more days, I'm going to assume he ran away. Since this debate was supposed to settle the Ship classification article, do you think it should be brought up at Wiki?

I'd love to see a debate between him and Mike. I really would.