Modern tank vs Mobile Suit, serious calcs included.

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2002-12-03 01:37am

If the rmor was thee feet thick as he said we can now figure the weight of it rougly

SAMAS · Post by **SAMAS** » 2002-12-03 09:18am

Vympel wrote:
SylasGaunt wrote:Actually it was taken out by the Kampfer's chain mine (though why you're basing your counter argument on a fan website's wording I dunno).
Additionally, chobham armor being destroyed by a mine is an excuse HOW?

Actually, it wasn't destroyed. At least, the induvidual plates weren't. They were, however, severely mangled, and fell off the Mobile Suit.

Here's a close-up of a link in the Chain Mine.
http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/0080/l ... inmine.jpg

They're about 5-8 feet wide. Now imagine about 30-40 of these wrapped around the suit and going off.

Oh, and the Alex weighed 90 metric tons in full armor, fully loaded.

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-12-03 10:41am

I could wrap 40 anti-tank mines around the frontal armor of a tank and positively nothing would happen. What is the role of these mines? Mobility kill, total destruction? Are they high explosive, or self-forging penetrators, or something else?

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2002-12-03 10:49am

Well it was probably referring to 1st gen Chobham anyway since the newest Challenger et al use 2nd gen Chobham or "Dorchester" armour.

Additionally, do any Gundams have ERA like defences such as on the T-90 series because non I have seen do.

SAMAS · Post by **SAMAS** » 2002-12-03 01:57pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:Well it was probably referring to 1st gen Chobham anyway since the newest Challenger et al use 2nd gen Chobham or "Dorchester" armour.

Additionally, do any Gundams have ERA like defences such as on the T-90 series because non I have seen do.

ERA?

Evil Sadistic Bastard · Post by **Evil Sadistic Bastard** » 2002-12-03 02:08pm

SAMAS wrote:
Admiral Valdemar wrote:Well it was probably referring to 1st gen Chobham anyway since the newest Challenger et al use 2nd gen Chobham or "Dorchester" armour.

Additionally, do any Gundams have ERA like defences such as on the T-90 series because non I have seen do.
ERA?

Enhanced Reactive Armor?
Evil Realty Agency?

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2002-12-03 02:13pm

Ahh reactive armor infantrys worse nightmare I mean yes it takes out HEAT shells but the fragments from it rip infantry to shreds

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2002-12-03 05:22pm

ERA (explosive reactive armor) is effective against all shells to varying degrees, but is highly lethal around infantry.

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-12-03 10:21pm

Evil Sadistic Bastard wrote:
SAMAS wrote:
Admiral Valdemar wrote:Well it was probably referring to 1st gen Chobham anyway since the newest Challenger et al use 2nd gen Chobham or "Dorchester" armour.

Additionally, do any Gundams have ERA like defences such as on the T-90 series because non I have seen do.
ERA?
Enhanced Reactive Armor?
Evil Realty Agency?

Kontakts-V 'heavy' ERA to be exact. Effective against both APFSDS and HEAT.

This T-72B has standard Kontakts 'light' ERA. It's only effective against HEAT (high explosive anti tank) weapons; from light infantry RPGs to tank main gun HEAT rounds

This early model T-90 has Kontakts-V ERA- it's also present on the T-72BM and T-80U series.

Normally the T-90 would have Shtora-1 optronic missile jammers, but for some reason this T-90 still has an infrared searchlight attached which makes the ERA much more visible- it gives the turret the clamshell appearance.

Here's an article:

http://armor.vif2.ru/Tanks/EQP/era.html

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2002-12-03 10:23pm

Vympel wrote:

I think I'm in love.....

SAMAS · Post by **SAMAS** » 2002-12-04 01:01pm

Nope. Don't know why they didn't(possibly because the designers of the series never heard of it), but after the One Year War, where everyone and their little brothers started packing Beam Weapons, it would become useless anyway.

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2002-12-04 01:11pm

Then why werrent they using reflective and ablative arnmor?

SAMAS · Post by **SAMAS** » 2002-12-04 01:49pm

Because Mega Particles had this nasty habit of not caring. Until the development of the Beam Shield, the best defense against beam fire was not to get hit in the first place.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2002-12-04 01:57pm

So because it's called Mega particle

...it's obvious that it'll pierce the reflective armor.

WTF?!

SAMAS · Post by **SAMAS** » 2002-12-04 02:01pm

Of course not. There are treatments and materials that are beam reflective or resistant, but those are expensive and not worth putting on every single mecha or ship you have. It was cheaper just to use a Beam Shield.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2002-12-04 02:07pm

Why not...honestly if the costs are extra but the armor is substanionally better...why go for a shield which could sheared off by one good blast to the sides, vs an entire piece impervious?

Unless they are significant weight issues...it's almost saying that the creators figured they would get tension out of having a LACK of tech vs intelligent opponents.

SAMAS · Post by **SAMAS** » 2002-12-04 03:14pm

Simpler reason. The last Mobile Suit to have an anti-beam coating worth a damn was the Type 100 in Zeta Gundam. The V2 Assault Gundam also had some on various areas.

It's hard to get the element of suprise, even in space. when all your ships and Mobile Suits are a bright, shining gold.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2002-12-04 05:18pm

SAMAS wrote:Simpler reason. The last Mobile Suit to have an anti-beam coating worth a damn was the Type 100 in Zeta Gundam. The V2 Assault Gundam also had some on various areas.

It's hard to get the element of suprise, even in space. when all your ships and Mobile Suits are a bright, shining gold.

And I guess it can't be camo painted, because...

Post by **Beowulf** » 2002-12-04 05:38pm

Pablo Sanchez wrote:
SAMAS wrote:Simpler reason. The last Mobile Suit to have an anti-beam coating worth a damn was the Type 100 in Zeta Gundam. The V2 Assault Gundam also had some on various areas.

It's hard to get the element of suprise, even in space. when all your ships and Mobile Suits are a bright, shining gold.
And I guess it can't be camo painted, because...

They're fuckwits who can't realize that it doesn't matter if the coating is painted over, since the paint will vaporize?

SAMAS · Post by **SAMAS** » 2002-12-04 06:03pm

No, that comes back to expense again. While it's fine to do that for your best pilots, and maybe even your command ship, It's too expensive for your entire army.

Post by **Beowulf** » 2002-12-04 06:22pm

SAMAS wrote:No, that comes back to expense again. While it's fine to do that for your best pilots, and maybe even your command ship, It's too expensive for your entire army.

So... which is cheaper, the beam plating, or a new mobile suit and a training a new pilot? I'm thinking the beam coating...

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2002-12-04 06:28pm

Let's just say mechs are too expensive to work. Pilot training takes a long time, and Putting some decent amour on a battleship would be a smart thing to do.

On the other hand I could also overwhelm you with a shit load of shitty little ships that are just lifesupport, Gun, & Engine.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2002-12-04 06:30pm

As for what I was thinking of Touronic Ion Array meets any Sci-Fi universe's captiol ship's weapons.

SAMAS · Post by **SAMAS** » 2002-12-04 06:53pm

Beowulf wrote:
SAMAS wrote:No, that comes back to expense again. While it's fine to do that for your best pilots, and maybe even your command ship, It's too expensive for your entire army.
So... which is cheaper, the beam plating, or a new mobile suit and a training a new pilot? I'm thinking the beam coating...

Neither. Give them a Beam Shield, and let the use that.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2002-12-07 06:32am

SAMAS wrote: Neither. Give them a Beam Shield, and let the use that.

A massive thing that needs to be swung around? Shit, you haven't even
answered our questions why Zeon/Federation likes to put forth stuff in
shiny crap, instead of Olive Drab....