Question about Padawan washouts in the Old Republic

GuppyShark · Post by **GuppyShark** » 2005-12-12 04:20am

It was a remote kill device. They discussed it at dinner.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2005-12-12 04:26am

GuppyShark wrote:It was a remote kill device. They discussed it at dinner.

They discussed a tracking beacon. When Anakin said "they blow you up," it's not clear that he's referring to a remote detonator; they may well catch you and then shoot you.

RThurmont · Post by **RThurmont** » 2005-12-12 04:39am

A remote kill device might not be popular with slaveowners; the risk of accidental detonation and the resulting loss of a slave would not be a good selling point. Before you say, "ah but they don't care", remember that slaves are expensive assets, more specifically, capital plant equipment, and no businessman wants to needlessly risk capital plant, especially expensive plant like slaves (I'm sure the more sordid details of economics such as this inspired Malthus to christen it "The Dismal Science").

Moving back to the debate, therefore, if we assume that the implanted tracking devices were not remote kill appliances, then Qui Gonn not seizing Anakin is significant, in that it might provide canonical trumping of the more outrageous aspects of this whole BS.

Taking us out of the realm of SoD and into that far murkier realm of literary theory, my guess would be that Lucas intended for the Jedi in their treatment of the Padawan to be far more human. Aspects such as shipping off rejected jedi to a lifetime of bondage or forcibly taking the force-sensitive from their families are never hinted at on screen. I, and I can't help but feel, the vast majority, of Star Wars viewers would prefer it if the Jedi Padawan-training thing was left in such a positive light, as I felt some of the most emotionally charged sequences in the PT were those that dealt with the Jedi/Youngling/Padawan progression (the scene with Yoda and the younglings in AOTC and the horrors of Anakin slaughtering the younglings in ROTS, not to mention the warm mentoring relationships depicted at differing times between the Jedi).

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2005-12-12 06:37am

RThurmont wrote:A remote kill device might not be popular with slaveowners; the risk of accidental detonation and the resulting loss of a slave would not be a good selling point. Before you say, "ah but they don't care", remember that slaves are expensive assets, more specifically, capital plant equipment, and no businessman wants to needlessly risk capital plant, especially expensive plant like slaves (I'm sure the more sordid details of economics such as this inspired Malthus to christen it "The Dismal Science").

Moving back to the debate, therefore, if we assume that the implanted tracking devices were not remote kill appliances, then Qui Gonn not seizing Anakin is significant, in that it might provide canonical trumping of the more outrageous aspects of this whole BS.

1) I disagree. Anakin is substantially different from a baby. It was hard enough for him to put down his mother voluntarily. Forcible removal will produce Dark Side problems down the road caused by resentment of the Jedi.
2) Qui-Gon is kinda unusual for a Jedi, not quite to Jedi norm. Remember that there are very few cases where a child rather than baby had to be taken - they in fact don't like training from childhood - too old.

Taking us out of the realm of SoD and into that far murkier realm of literary theory, my guess would be that Lucas intended for the Jedi in their treatment of the Padawan to be far more human. Aspects such as shipping off rejected jedi to a lifetime of bondage or forcibly taking the force-sensitive from their families are never hinted at on screen. I, and I can't help but feel, the vast majority, of Star Wars viewers would prefer it if the Jedi Padawan-training thing was left in such a positive light, as I felt some of the most emotionally charged sequences in the PT were those that dealt with the Jedi/Youngling/Padawan progression (the scene with Yoda and the younglings in AOTC and the horrors of Anakin slaughtering the younglings in ROTS, not to mention the warm mentoring relationships depicted at differing times between the Jedi).

Personally, I doubt even Lucas will allow such a thematic scheme to slip from his notice. When combined with some of the more questionable events in Episode III (such as Windu's decisions), I think what Lucas is trying to show is a well-meaning but severely dysfunctional Jedi society that's far from its claimed norms. Which is why they get snookered by Palpy - balance to the Force and all that.

Bill_Dunaway · Post by **Bill_Dunaway** » 2005-12-12 10:43am

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote: I think what Lucas is trying to show is a well-meaning but severely dysfunctional Jedi society that's far from its claimed norms. Which is why they get snookered by Palpy - balance to the Force and all that.

I can see another problem with the Jedi system. All the Jedi have the same indoctrination from the time they were toddlers and usually wind up with the same basic philosophy and mindset. Most Jedi have little interest in doing anything more than preserving the status quo.

Qui-Gon was apologetic to Shmi because his mission was not to free slaves. Most Jedi would never have even considered the possibility that the Jedi should help anyone outside the Republic.

Guardsman Bass · Post by **Guardsman Bass** » 2005-12-12 11:25am

Bill_Dunaway wrote:
Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote: I think what Lucas is trying to show is a well-meaning but severely dysfunctional Jedi society that's far from its claimed norms. Which is why they get snookered by Palpy - balance to the Force and all that.
I can see another problem with the Jedi system. All the Jedi have the same indoctrination from the time they were toddlers and usually wind up with the same basic philosophy and mindset. Most Jedi have little interest in doing anything more than preserving the status quo.

Although it's easy to see the disadvantages in the Order's recruitment system, it has its advantages as well. By getting the kids while they are still very young, too young to form lasting memories for the most part, they can do what Mace Windu mentioned in Shatterpoint; they can largely subdue the natural instincts of territorialism, anger, fear, greed, and hatred, controlling them with self-service and a focus on peace and the light. This is indoctrination, of course, but it seems to work in preventing most Jedi from going renegade.

Personally, I think the Order just should've raised the bar on the level of force talent that their wards had to have to become Jedi. They can pick up a possible Jedi's midichlorian level, like they did with Anakin, and powerful potential Jedi are pretty rare. They would be claimed by the Order, and the rest, who would be unlikely to make either strong Jedi or Sith, would probably simply live 'lucky' lives.

frogcurry · Post by **frogcurry** » 2005-12-12 02:34pm

I always assumed that the moment your kid was found to be a Jedi it would be a "OK, he/she's yours" moment. What parent wants a developing child who is telepathic, telekinetic, and WANTS THE BAR OF CHOCOLATE YOU'RE HIDING NOW (cue force lightning)? Hence the Jedi Order wasn't forcing them, it was saving them from the dangers of being linked to the force but untrained. Any parent who might try to bring up a force sensitive child without the ability to train them properly would be taking risks and would also be denying the child the opportunity and safety of Jedi training - perhaps a form of child abuse in the eyes of republic citizens (Who admire the Jedi so).

This works if you assume they might have some expression of force powers without training, which doesn't fit with what we see of the lives of Luke or Anakin EXCEPT for the skilled piloting - so some force abilities are exhibited without awareness or training. It might be the case for some Jedi that they know how to use other, possibly more evil powers without training. After all, someone had to be the first Jedi and do it all without help.

(mildly edited for verbal stupidity)

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-12-12 03:33pm

Indeed, in most case, having your child selected for Jedi training is an honor, although I don't doubt that some parents might have a hard time with it.

Now that I think about, where are all these horror stories RT is spouting coming from? I know that Jedi take babies and toddlers from their families for training (although it is noted that if they're found too old, they typically are not taken), but where has it even been mentioned that Jedi take babies by force, or steal them? Certainly, some parents must refuse to relinquish their children, but I don't recall any discription of what happens when this occurs. Who's to say that they don't leave them, perhaps asking a few more times, and then placing the child under observation, just in case something goes wrong?

The only place I can remember any mention of Jedi as being baby-snatchers is from Palpatine/Dooku's anti-Jedi tyraids in the AOTC and ROTS novelizations (although I may be thinking of something else all together). Certainly, their propaganda cannot be taken as the whole truth.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2005-12-12 07:41pm

Rogue 9 wrote:
GuppyShark wrote:It was a remote kill device. They discussed it at dinner.
They discussed a tracking beacon. When Anakin said "they blow you up," it's not clear that he's referring to a remote detonator; they may well catch you and then shoot you.

While extremely low as far as any canonicity is concerned, the Secrets of Tatooine book for the D20 RPG mentions that the slave tracking device will heat up and explode if the slave travels more than 50 kilometers from a special transmitter.

Guardsman Bass · Post by **Guardsman Bass** » 2005-12-13 11:30am

I always assumed that the moment your kid was found to be a Jedi it would be a "OK, he/she's yours" moment. What parent wants a developing child who is telepathic, telekinetic, and WANTS THE BAR OF CHOCOLATE YOU'RE HIDING NOW (cue force lightning)? Hence the Jedi Order wasn't forcing them, it was saving them from the dangers of being linked to the force but untrained. Any parent who might try to bring up a force sensitive child without the ability to train them properly would be taking risks and would also be denying the child the opportunity and safety of Jedi training - perhaps a form of child abuse in the eyes of republic citizens (Who admire the Jedi so).

Most prospective Jedi probably wouldn't even be near this level of power, assuming they developed any control over their power at all. Anakin, for example, had more force potential than even Yoda, but all he was able to do with his power was use it to help him survive in pod races and build machines before Qui-Gon found him.

For a better example of what a person with mediocre Jedi talent might be like, look at Scout, a padawan girl in the book Dark Rendezvous. She describes having the Force as merely giving her a sudden foresight once in a while.

Even the Sith probably wouldn't be interested in most of the possible Jedi excluded if the testing bar was raised higher, since most of them would have weak potential, at best.

RThurmont · Post by **RThurmont** » 2005-12-15 12:13am

While extremely low as far as any canonicity is concerned, the Secrets of Tatooine book for the D20 RPG mentions that the slave tracking device will heat up and explode if the slave travels more than 50 kilometers from a special transmitter.

Well, if we accept that's cannon, then it is also mindless canon.

What happens if, for example, a Tatooine-based manufacturing concern, with an inventory of 3,000 slaves with tracking devices tied to a central transmitter, should suddenly experience a power outage? WHOOPS.

The general manager would be, as I'm sure George Lucas would have someone say it, "Bantha Poodu."

Moving back to the main argument, while unfortunately this does count as low-grade cannon, I just can't see this fitting into the storyline. Forcibly seizing children from their families and effectively enslaving them sounds like something a Sith lord would do, not the Jedi. It reeks of Dark-Sidedness. I just can't picture George Lucas either coming up with, or endorsing, this aspect of the SW universe. It strikes me as idiotic as the more annoying minimalist arguments.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-12-15 12:27am

Moving back to the main argument, while unfortunately this does count as low-grade cannon, I just can't see this fitting into the storyline. Forcibly seizing children from their families and effectively enslaving them sounds like something a Sith lord would do, not the Jedi. It reeks of Dark-Sidedness. I just can't picture George Lucas either coming up with, or endorsing, this aspect of the SW universe. It strikes me as idiotic as the more annoying minimalist arguments.

I'll ask again; what evidence do you have that this actually occurs? I would really like to know, because I can't think of any.

Old Plympto · Post by **Old Plympto** » 2005-12-15 12:32am

Noble Ire wrote:I'll ask again; what evidence do you have that this actually occurs? I would really like to know, because I can't think of any.

Perhaps this incident is what you're looking for.

RThurmont · Post by **RThurmont** » 2005-12-15 12:34am

Sorry Noble, I inadvertantly failed to notice where you asked that.

Didn't someone, earlier in this thread, post that the Jedi would involuntarily take children they determined were highly force-sensitive from their families? If that part isn't canon (and I sincerely hope it isn't), I would be much relieved.

As far as the "enslavement" concept, I was of course referring to the forcible enrollment of Padawan rejects into the AgriCorps or into other forms of service with the Jedi order. Unless they were later to be released from this service, it would in effect constitute a lifetime of bondage.

Theoretically, one could argue that this is actual non-canonical, as the films and high-level books trump low-level material such as the stories where this was mentioned. I would argue that this could be defeated on canonical grounds for two reasons:

(1) The Republic's laws, if I remember TPM correctly, prohibit slavery, and the forced enrollment of Padawans in the Agricorps or their forced service to the Jedi, if on a lifelong basis, would constitute de facto slavery.

(2) One could argue that forcing Padawans into the Agricorps or otherwise enslaving them in the manner discussed would be synonymous with using the Dark Side of the force, and as such would be avoided by the Jedi. Then again, other aspects of Jedi morality (such as their use of mind-tricks on the "weak-minded") are questionable, so (1) would be a stronger argument as to whether or not this disagreeable aspect of the EU is canonically trumped.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-12-15 12:36am

Old Plympto wrote:
Noble Ire wrote:I'll ask again; what evidence do you have that this actually occurs? I would really like to know, because I can't think of any.
Perhaps this incident is what you're looking for.

Holonet wrote:Standard Jedi procedure would have required parental consent prior to adopting the child into the Jedi order, but the parents were missing and presumed dead.

While the Jedi reaction the the request is somewhat questionable, it is quite clear that this is an unusual case, "without precident".

RThurmont · Post by **RThurmont** » 2005-12-15 12:41am

Ah, thanks for pointing that out. I just totally blew past that earlier. I am, to put it mildly, much relieved about that.

Old Plympto · Post by **Old Plympto** » 2005-12-15 12:42am

Noble Ire wrote:While the Jedi reaction the the request is somewhat questionable, it is quite clear that this is an unusual case, "without precident".

That is true, but with the subtle machinations of politics (as inferred by the article) especially Palpatine's brand of it to subvert the Jedi, I can see in-universe isolated cases like this causing concern for the lay person: "Oh noes, the Jedi are going to take mah baby from me."

Thought that takes us away from the slavery discussion. I apologize. Carry on, gentlemen.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-12-15 12:43am

Theoretically, one could argue that this is actual non-canonical, as the films and high-level books trump low-level material such as the stories where this was mentioned. I would argue that this could be defeated on canonical grounds for two reasons:

(1) The Republic's laws, if I remember TPM correctly, prohibit slavery, and the forced enrollment of Padawans in the Agricorps or their forced service to the Jedi, if on a lifelong basis, would constitute de facto slavery.

(2) One could argue that forcing Padawans into the Agricorps or otherwise enslaving them in the manner discussed would be synonymous with using the Dark Side of the force, and as such would be avoided by the Jedi. Then again, other aspects of Jedi morality (such as their use of mind-tricks on the "weak-minded") are questionable, so (1) would be a stronger argument as to whether or not this disagreeable aspect of the EU is canonically trumped.

I severly dislike using canon policy to attempt to "trump" EU, especially when a blatant contradiction is not clear. However, you do raise some iteresting points. I personal theory is that, since we know little of the Agri Corps outside of a basic description, and the nervous musings of a few not-yet padawans (who are bound to exaggerate), that after a certain period of time at the Corps, recruits may have the option to rejoin society as a non-Jedi, having enough knowelge to restrain their skills and resist the dark side. Such self-removal from the Jedi Order is not without precident (The Lost Twenty) and it may be more common for these "non-Jedi". Certainly, some, like those with a natural tendancy towards biolence or corruption, might be forced to stay on, or others might do so of their own volition, but I have a hard time believing that the Agri Corps are some kind of internment camp for rejects.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2005-12-15 01:38am

You're not bound to a lifetime of service to the Order; remember, they can expel members, and Dooku just quit.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2005-12-15 01:56am

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:Does anybody know what they do once they are sent to AgriCorps. Just do farmer shit like everyone around them with the additional disadvantage of being watched by Jedi chekists? Use their minute Force powers to help the plants grow?

Thank you.

Heh. Kaz your rhetoric has only become more virulent. You're like the PSW equivalent of Plekhanov or Elfdart.

Guardsman Bass · Post by **Guardsman Bass** » 2005-12-15 12:49pm

Rogue 9 wrote:You're not bound to a lifetime of service to the Order; remember, they can expel members, and Dooku just quit.

That sort of makes me wonder about the padawans who get sent to the Agricorps. Since we know that Jedi can voluntarily leave the Order (the Lost Twenty), does that mean that these kids can leave rather than get sent to be farmers? I'd imagine they'd be stuck farming until they reached whatever the legal age of consent is in the Star Wars universe.

Kojiro · Post by **Kojiro** » 2005-12-16 01:45am

On a related tangent, what would Anakin's fate have been if the jedi had found out about Padme? Obi-wan says he'll be kicked out but doesn't go into much more detail.

Guardsman Bass · Post by **Guardsman Bass** » 2005-12-16 01:26pm

Kojiro wrote:On a related tangent, what would Anakin's fate have been if the jedi had found out about Padme? Obi-wan says he'll be kicked out but doesn't go into much more detail.

It depends on who found him out, but I'd imagine the Jedi Council would try to deal with Anakin as quietly as possible, since the scandal would be horrific once it got out that the Order was expelling its most popular and powerful Jedi warrior for marrying a prominent senator.

Star-Blighter · Post by **Star-Blighter** » 2005-12-17 12:38pm

RThurmont wrote:While extremely low as far as any canonicity is concerned, the Secrets of Tatooine book for the D20 RPG mentions that the slave tracking device will heat up and explode if the slave travels more than 50 kilometers from a special transmitter.

Well, if we accept that's cannon, then it is also mindless canon.

What happens if, for example, a Tatooine-based manufacturing concern, with an inventory of 3,000 slaves with tracking devices tied to a central transmitter, should suddenly experience a power outage? WHOOPS. The general manager would be, as I'm sure George Lucas would have someone say it, "Bantha Poodu."

Its called a generator, it powers stuff. I don't see any mention that there is only ONE transmitter or that back up systems don't exist. I have trouble believing any civilisation that has fusion reactors in their bikes couldn't make a slave restraining device that doesn't kill all the slaves when the rolling blackouts come...

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2006-01-04 05:25pm

Just came across this link. Not sure about the canonicity level, but it pertains directly to the OP.

http://www.wizards.com/starwars/article ... rise&c=rpg