A philosophical question.

[Straha]

You are a teacher, and have assigned an essay to your students. The question goes like this: One of your students (student A) is incredibly bright, he knows everything about the subject like the back of his hand, can recite stuff about it from almost any source, etc. etc. etc. The day the essay is due, you see him 45 minutes before class starting his essay. When he hands it in it's obvious he has done no special work or research for it and was, in fact, quite lazy about the whole thing, but because of what he already knows it has everything that you expected from the assignment, and more. A second student (student B,) however, is slow. He means well, he does the work, but he just doesn't quite get it. He gives you a barely par essay rife with minor problems, but it's obvious he spent a considerable amount of time researching it and put extra-effort into it, probably more than anyone else in the class.

And so the question: You mut give one of these two students a better grade, and one a lower grade. Who do you give the better grade to, and why?

[Darth Wong]

Real-life doesn't give bonus points for effort if the end result isn't up to par. Teachers shouldn't either (although I know that they do on many occasions).

You wouldn't do Student B any favours by letting him think he's smarter than he really is. If he's slow, I feel sorry for him but really, what the fuck good does it do to give him inflated marks? Sooner or later, reality is going to hit him, and the longer you try to keep reality away, the harder that impact is going to be.

[Kuroneko]

Student A, although I would take the time to further encourage Student B if I am able.

Real-life doesn't give bonus points for effort if the end result isn't up to par.

Moreover, even if it did, it's not at all clear that Student A ultimately put in any significantly lesser effort into the production of that paper. If Student A's prior knowledge is such that his understanding is not only superior but that he can also recite sources almost on the fly, it's quite clear that this knowledge could not have been obtained without significant research no matter how high his intelligence is. The fact that this research occured before the assignment and probably over a longer period of time would be an rather petty reason to reduce his grade.

[Stuart Mackey]

Student A deserved the higher grade . But he is a smarmy git who needs a kick in the arse to adjust his attitude, cause sooner or later he will get into a situation where he does not know all the answers and his attitude will actually harm him.

Student B: Should get the lower grade. Hard work should be commended however. He probably knows his limitations allready, so lower grade probably wont be an issue.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

You are a teacher, and have assigned an essay to your students. The question goes like this: One of your students (student A) is incredibly bright, he knows everything about the subject like the back of his hand, can recite stuff about it from almost any source, etc. etc. etc. The day the essay is due, you see him 45 minutes before class starting his essay. When he hands it in it's obvious he has done no special work or research for it and was, in fact, quite lazy about the whole thing, but because of what he already knows it has everything that you expected from the assignment, and more.

That actually happens quite a bit to me. The biggest delay in those cases is that the teacher doesn't realize everything I written had been well-integrated into my brain a long time ago, almost as well as 2+2=4. He wants sources. So I have to find sources that say things I know all too well already and find out exactly what each source said so I can make the correct citation. Citations can take up as much as 1/3rd of my total essay production time.

The other thing that happens quite a bit to me is that I don't know the subject, but on the last day I grab some books that look right from the library and spend 2-3 hours (sleeping around 2AM) mashing the essay out for tomorrow. Eyes read book, brain paraphrases and integrates, hand types essay in near-real time.

Despite this, they are little the worse for it - I suppose I can squeeze out a few more marks over an already pretty good mark by actually spending a disproportionate amount of extra time on it, but it is clearly on the Marginal Return level.

And so the question: You mut give one of these two students a better grade, and one a lower grade. Who do you give the better grade to, and why?

I am sorry, but as people have said before, Reality is tough and it is not clear that Student A didn't prepare naturally in the past.

What you could do is try and reconnoiter where's he's weak and make him do an assignment on it. For example, if you are making people do essays on WWII and you realize this A guy knows the names of all the scores of Divisional Commanders on the Western Front, make him do the Eastern Front or the Pacific.

It is unlikely to greatly penalize him - your class only has so much breadth in area and it is unlikely that a student that can get an A without noticeable effort in an essay on the Western Front would lose many marks for being forced to do an essay on the Eastern. He's most likely to find some sources and integrate them with the proficiency that gotten him interested in the Western Front in the first place. He's going to work a bit (still a lot less than Guy B) and he's gonna learn something - which is the point of ecducation, no?

[Lusankya]

Back in high school, I'd always get pretty much full marks for my actual essay, and then lose a mark on the 1-2 marks on the percentage assigned for bibliography.

*shrug* It made sense to me.


ROAR!!!!! says GOJIRA!!!!!

[Keevan_Colton]

The concept of an A for effort is disgusting to me. If you arent marking everyone based on the same criteria the marks themselves are worthless, you cant then compare two peoples marks.

The marking of work for grades should be objective. Marking based on how much effort you feel someone has put into it is subjective and the world has way too much subjective bullshit already.

[Braedley]

Sorry I took so long to explain my resoning behind voting for Student B, but I just got back from failing an exam.

The way I see it, although Student A has an essay full of great points, he couldn't have written a great essay full of valid points, simply because there was little to no planning. Because he has done little to no research, he doesn't have a bibliography, and all the points he makes, irregardless of how good they are, are only worth the paper they're written on. How many times have all of you cried foul when someone says "this is so because I say so"? This is essentially what this student has done by not citing any reputable sources.

Student B on the other hand has many sources, and although there may be many irrelevant points in his essay, at least he has cited them (maybe incorrectly), and still has some valid points from reputable sources. Sure, his paper is riddled with gramatical and spelling errors, and the structure is a little off, and he may not even draw his own conclusions, but the most important thing is the ideas. Now he obviously doesn't deserve the highest mark in the class, but that shouldn't go to Student A either.

If the choice were a little more open, I'd say they both deserved the same mark. Then again, not being able to compare the two papers first hand doesn't help either.

[Keevan_Colton]

Sorry I took so long to explain my resoning behind voting for Student B, but I just got back from failing an exam.

The way I see it, although Student A has an essay full of great points, he couldn't have written a great essay full of valid points, simply because there was little to no planning. Because he has done little to no research, he doesn't have a bibliography, and all the points he makes, irregardless of how good they are, are only worth the paper they're written on. How many times have all of you cried foul when someone says "this is so because I say so"? This is essentially what this student has done by not citing any reputable sources.

Student B on the other hand has many sources, and although there may be many irrelevant points in his essay, at least he has cited them (maybe incorrectly), and still has some valid points from reputable sources. Sure, his paper is riddled with gramatical and spelling errors, and the structure is a little off, and he may not even draw his own conclusions, but the most important thing is the ideas. Now he obviously doesn't deserve the highest mark in the class, but that shouldn't go to Student A either.

If the choice were a little more open, I'd say they both deserved the same mark. Then again, not being able to compare the two papers first hand doesn't help either.

It says up there that student A has fulfilled and exceeded the expectations of the assignment...student B hasnt. You seem to be working on the faulty assumption that student A's work isnt up to par...

It's really that simple...what the fuck use is giving grades for how much effort someone has put into something? It makes grades completely useless as two peoples grades cannot then be compared...someone could be unable to add 2+2 but puts in a lot of effort and gets an A while someone else could have an intuitive grasp of calculus but be given a C because they dont have to work hard at it.

[Braedley]

It says up there that student A has fulfilled and exceeded the expectations of the assignment...student B hasnt. You seem to be working on the faulty assumption that student A's work isnt up to par...

It's really that simple...what the fuck use is giving grades for how much effort someone has put into something? It makes grades completely useless as two peoples grades cannot then be compared...someone could be unable to add 2+2 but puts in a lot of effort and gets an A while someone else could have an intuitive grasp of calculus but be given a C because they dont have to work hard at it.

How much of my post did you read? I said Student B doesn't deserve the highest mark in the class (which is typically in the range of an A). Maybe he ends up with a B-. While Student A has exceeded the expectations for the final result (ie the actual paper), he still doesn't have all the accompaning work (a proper bibliography, valid refrences etc.), and doesn't show any evidence that his paper is even valid.

I also said I may change my mind after having seen both papers for myself, but since this a hypothetical, that will never.

[Keevan_Colton]

It says up there that student A has fulfilled and exceeded the expectations of the assignment...student B hasnt. You seem to be working on the faulty assumption that student A's work isnt up to par...

It's really that simple...what the fuck use is giving grades for how much effort someone has put into something? It makes grades completely useless as two peoples grades cannot then be compared...someone could be unable to add 2+2 but puts in a lot of effort and gets an A while someone else could have an intuitive grasp of calculus but be given a C because they dont have to work hard at it.

How much of my post did you read? I said Student B doesn't deserve the highest mark in the class (which is typically in the range of an A). Maybe he ends up with a B-. While Student A has exceeded the expectations for the final result (ie the actual paper), he still doesn't have all the accompaning work (a proper bibliography, valid refrences etc.), and doesn't show any evidence that his paper is even valid.

I also said I may change my mind after having seen both papers for myself, but since this a hypothetical, that will never.

I read your entire post, you clearly didnt understand mine, or the OP...

It specifically says that student A has exceeded the requirments for the piece but hasnt put effort into it. If his piece didnt have a bibliography despite the piece calling for it then there would be no fucking dilema here, his work would be below standard and not deserving of a top mark anyway...

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

You are a teacher, and have assigned an essay to your students. The question goes like this: One of your students (student A) is incredibly bright, he knows everything about the subject like the back of his hand, can recite stuff about it from almost any source, etc. etc. etc. The day the essay is due, you see him 45 minutes before class starting his essay. When he hands it in it's obvious he has done no special work or research for it and was, in fact, quite lazy about the whole thing, but because of what he already knows it has everything that you expected from the assignment, and more. A second student (student B,) however, is slow. He means well, he does the work, but he just doesn't quite get it. He gives you a barely par essay rife with minor problems, but it's obvious he spent a considerable amount of time researching it and put extra-effort into it, probably more than anyone else in the class.

And so the question: You mut give one of these two students a better grade, and one a lower grade. Who do you give the better grade to, and why?

As long as Student A isn't still writing the damned essay five minutes after class starts, then you have to reward him for the results. If the results are better than Student B's results, then you give Student A the better grade, end of story. If Student A can produce a high-scoring paper in forty-five minutes with half his brain tied behind his back, then more power to him. The most the teacher could do, in this instance, is take Student A aside and ask him to, next time, spend that 45 minutes at home, and not in the teacher's view.

Nobody is doing Student B any favors by mollycoddling him, because when he graduates, nobody's going to grant him any special favors. Really, the only time effort counts, is if a student is right on the knife's edge.

In my days as a college lab instructor, I've had students whom I've sat back and asked myself "what the hell is this guy doing here? He's ready for the intermediate class!" Just as I've had students whom I've sat back and asked myself "what the hell is this guy doing here? I hope he's not majoring in CS or engineering, because he's going to be in for a hell of a bruising if he is." At the end of the semester, the bright guys did everything expected of them, breeze through the exams in lecture, and they get their A's and A+'s, simple as that.

The dimwits were a bit more interesting, as some of them, one could tell were really, really trying. And some of them even made forward progress. Did I grade their programs and labwork any easier because they were making a supreme effort? No, I graded them the same way I'd grade anyone else. But, at the end, if they were sitting right at the knife's edge between, say, a C+ or a B-, or even right between a C- and a C, I'd tell the professor to give them the higher of the two. But it would've been highly irresponsible to give a C+/B- student an A just because that student worked really hard.

[Darth Servo]

Student A primarily because I was Student A on many occasions.

[Kuroneko]

While Student A has exceeded the expectations for the final result (ie the actual paper), he still doesn't have all the accompaning work (a proper bibliography, valid refrences etc.), and doesn't show any evidence that his paper is even valid.

Where are you getting this from? He has met and surpassed expectations for the assignment. Even if for some reason citations are not part what was expected (they well should have been), Student A can recite sources for just about any fact regarding the topic prior to the assignment. The OP makes him out to be a almost a walking encyclopedia on the all the technical details of the topic.

[Braedley]

It says up there that student A has fulfilled and exceeded the expectations of the assignment...student B hasnt. You seem to be working on the faulty assumption that student A's work isnt up to par...

It's really that simple...what the fuck use is giving grades for how much effort someone has put into something? It makes grades completely useless as two peoples grades cannot then be compared...someone could be unable to add 2+2 but puts in a lot of effort and gets an A while someone else could have an intuitive grasp of calculus but be given a C because they dont have to work hard at it.

How much of my post did you read? I said Student B doesn't deserve the highest mark in the class (which is typically in the range of an A). Maybe he ends up with a B-. While Student A has exceeded the expectations for the final result (ie the actual paper), he still doesn't have all the accompaning work (a proper bibliography, valid refrences etc.), and doesn't show any evidence that his paper is even valid.

I also said I may change my mind after having seen both papers for myself, but since this a hypothetical, that will never.

I read your entire post, you clearly didnt understand mine, or the OP...

It specifically says that student A has exceeded the requirments for the piece but hasnt put effort into it. If his piece didnt have a bibliography despite the piece calling for it then there would be no fucking dilema here, his work would be below standard and not deserving of a top mark anyway...

Lets see if I can make this a little clearer.
Lets say, for instance, the the essay is on the developement of the field of Quantum Mechanics, and that I am, for instance, Student A. I know everything there is to know about QM, the theory, practical stuff, and the history. I can write half decent essays on the fly, but don't remember the title, author, publisher, year of publish, page number etc, etc of every fact in every QM book I own or have read. If I still write a very good essay, but don't (can't) support my arguments with direct refrences to smarter people (ie the people who wrote those books, and in turn the people they quoted), then it is simply impossible for my paper to hold any weight. That is how the real world works.

[Keevan_Colton]

You've got some serious fucking problems understanding the nature of the dilema here...it specifically states that Student A exceeds the requirements for the assignment.

You're pretending that he doesnt...get a fucking clue.

[Braedley]

Sorry for working within the spirit of the OP, and not the letter of the OP. And also, he doesn't exceed the requirements, just the expectations. They are different, and anyone who thinks otherwise should go back to school for a year.

Since I'm not going to change your minds with the state my brain is in right now, I will concede the argument.

[Keevan_Colton]

The OP is about whether you reward effort over results. That's the spirit of it, it's also the letter of it...

Anyway, concession accepted.

[Gil Hamilton]

Student A gets the better grade. The resultant paper is what's important, not the speed in which it was done. If his paper was better than Student B's, he should get the better grade.

[Morilore]

Student B probably has lower grades overall than Student A, so it might be possible to give him an encouraging grade while still maintaining objective marks.

[Ace Pace]

Student A primarily because I was Student A on many occasions.

Seconded, this happens to me alot in english class, where I breeze and get full marks on an essay I cobbled together during the break, while others who work hard get marked hard. No, its not fair, but in this case the results count.

However, I think in lower grades it should also be mentioned Student A should be reprimended for bad practices while student B is praised, simply because at that stage of their education there is still time for them to change their practices and correct fundemental mistakes.

[weemadando]

I'd give Student A the higher mark. As a university professor my job is reward excellence, not effort. I'll give student A a slap upsides the head a firm talking to, and give student B some encouragement and probably try and organise some additional tute time if I think they have potential.

But, at the core, it doesn't matter who spent more time and effort, its about who wrote the better paper.

[Quadlok]

I actually voted for student B because, at my college, firm talking tos, metaphorical smacks upside the head, or encouragement are the grades, and speaking as a student A, I prefer to be called on writing a zero effort paper. Of course, this isn't exactly the norm, and under normal circumstances, A should indeed get the better grade.

[LadyTevar]

As much as I like rooting for the underdog, Student A gets the better grade.

[Nova Andromeda]

--According to some of the twisted reasoning I see here I should have gotten all A's in Spanish for "hard work" and F's in math and science for "laziness." This would be despite barely knowing enough Spanish to sqeak by, but easily understanding everything taught in the math and science classes.
-The whole point of school is to teach students stuff. Essays, home work, practice problems, etc. are just for practice. The only thing that matters in the end is how well you can do when your skills are tested (via questions, essays, etc.).
-I really don't see where people get the idea that "hard work" matters at all when it comes to evaluating whether someone can do something like add or write a coherent essay....