[EugenicHegemony] Income Tax debate advice

[Boyish-Tigerlilly]

Can someone help me. I am conversing with a friend, he keeps saying silly things like:

1. The USA is a communist government
2. THe Central Bank is communist
3. The income tax is a war tax

No matter what I say, he will never provide any sources and he ignores me in favour of repetition. I don't know if I am just not getting through, or if I am just wrong, but what do you think of the above? I have tried everything. I don't see how we are a communist economy or how the income tax = a war tax, since income tax funds so much else.

His argument essentially is based on this logic. The income tax amendment was passed prior to ww1 (but 4 years prior to our involvement), ergo, it is a war tax. To me that seems as if he's saying it was based before it, therefore because of it. When asked to provide evidence, he says it's "obvious" and that all wars are planned. It sounds like bullshit. That makes no sense to me. He insists it is a war tax regardless of the little tax revenue actually recieved prior to 1917, the long period before the war (it was proposed in 1909, enancted in 13), and the myriad progressive groups platforms interested in the income tax long before WW1.

Should I continue arguing, or is there really no point?


I would appreciate some help.I don't need refutations or arguments or anything. I just want to know if it is worth actually arguing and what you think.

This is actually what he says. It sounds nuts to me:

Take it away [Income Tax], and they can't fund their wars. That says it all. The FED is in fact a communist bank. We do not have a free market, you're on drugs.

There is no accounting for income tax revenue. You can spout all day. It's taken by government to fund their activities. Government can't wage war without it. They can do everything else needed without an income tax. There is nothing that shows where it is all alloctaed to.

I don't really understand what he hell he's saying. No accounting? Wartax? Communism?

[The Guid]

There really is no point. If he will not post any evidence then you can't refute it. If he only repeats it is pointless to keep posting rebuttals. I trust you have dealt the smackdown? You can move away with clear victory in your head.

[Boyish-Tigerlilly]

Yea, I have posted sources from the Departement of the Treasury and the IRS, and various texts, and I can't find shit about historians or economists saying Income Tax is our war tax, but then I am just a government bootlicker apparently.

I just want to get it straight for myself, so I am doing some more historical research.

The only thing I can see being for war is the Income Tax proposed during the 1860's and later for the Spanish American War, but he's not talking about that one. He's asserting that our income tax now is a war tax and that it was made specifically to fund World War One, but I can't find jack to corroborate that and our income tax provides much more than just for military. It seems he's basing it off the assumed fact that something occures before X, it obviously means that it occured because of X. Isn't that some sort of fallacy? That seems like a post hoc ergo propert, but a bit different.

According to the Department of the Treasury history of the Income Tax, the income tax was proposed by farmers and westerners due to the dislike of regressive sales taxes and tarriffs. There was also about an 8 year span before American involvement in WW1 and the proposal of the income tax, so how could one be because of the other? His solution is that we did it ahead of time because we knew in 1909 that we would go to war, because "all wars are planned." It seems absurd. Even if we go by when the income tax was enacted, there was like 3 or 4 years of standby, and from the early periods of enactment, little money was actually collected, and the government had to enact another law to increase it when the US entered the war.

[Boyish-Tigerlilly]

Thanks though. I appreciate your post. I don't think I am going to post anything anymore. Everyone's a government bootlicker who disagrees.

[tharkûn]

1. The USA is a communist government

Ask for a definition of communist. Or just skip to quoting Marx/Lenin about all the descriptions of communist government such as the abolition of private property and investment income.

2. THe Central Bank is communist

Funny considering central banks predate communism by a century or two. The first recognizable central banks showed up in the late 17th century and have been evolving since then.

In any even the US Central Bank is without analogue in any "communist" state. Indeed one of the major purposes of the US Central Bank is to remove direct governmental control of various economic matters; that is antithetical to a communist comand economy.

3. The income tax is a war tax

It was. The income tax was first raised to pay for the Napoleonic Wars by Pitt, in the US it was introduced with the Civil War. However both of those taxes were abolished and were only reintroduced decades later; in the US following a constitutional amendment. In neither latter instance was the tax a war tax, in the US it was enacted in 1913 prior to any major conflict.

[Boyish-Tigerlilly]

It was. The income tax was first raised to pay for the Napoleonic Wars by Pitt, in the US it was introduced with the Civil War. However both of those taxes were abolished and were only reintroduced decades later; in the US following a constitutional amendment. In neither latter instance was the tax a war tax, in the US it was enacted in 1913 prior to any major conflict.

True. I knew the former, but the latter was the problem. I didnt know if I were glossing over something, because it didn't make much sense to have a war tax proposed long before entrance into a war, unless they were planning for it, but I searched cornell law and couldn't find that in the purpouse for the law history they provide.

Cool beans.

[NecronLord]

I once did the math on what the government here (the UK) could afford without income tax, based on where it gets spent. I could re-post it, or try with the US budget if you want.

[Jalinth]

My understanding is that the first income tax was during the US civil war and was eventually declared unconstitutional (the whole reason they needed to pass an amendment). So it was a "war' driven tax.

But the modern version has no such connection. Most likely, the reason it was passed is that the US government couldn't pay for its obligations with its constitutionally limited funding sources (by the early 1900s, the US was definitely a "power" and had to have a big enough military to boot. Difficult when you are limited to import duties, and similar revenue)

His contention that the Federal Bank is communist is amusing. The Fed is part of the government, so either the whole government is communist or not. The Fed's function (by and large) would be needed by any type of government.

[Plekhanov]

This guys sounds like an anarcho-capitalist or some similarly out there ideologue see if you can get him to define both communism & capitalism I suspect you’ll find there’s no country in the world (apart from maybe Somalia) which comes close to his definition of capitalism.

[Rogue 9]

1. The USA is a communist government

Ask for a definition of communist. Or just skip to quoting Marx/Lenin about all the descriptions of communist government such as the abolition of private property and investment income.

I've seen the argument before. Lew Rockwell or somebody's got a big ol' list purporting to show that every single plank of Marx's manifesto has been implemented in the United States. It's bullshit, of course.

[Boyish-Tigerlilly]

I once did the math on what the government here (the UK) could afford without income tax, based on where it gets spent. I could re-post it, or try with the US budget if you want.

I would really appreciate that. Doing some research on the US income tax and where it goes, I came across a couple organizations that promoted a pie chart dividing up the different areas into which the tax goes, but I really didn't know if it were true.

Some of it was quite vague. A huge chuck of the tax goes to "programmes and human resouces." Whatever that means. 30% was said to go to military sans veterans.

[Gil Hamilton]

Wait, "the Central Bank"... does he mean the Federal Reserve, which is the central bank of the U.S. Government? Granted it was invented to to centralize and regulate all the economic bullshit that existed prior to its foundation, but given that there were over 10,000 different forms of currency, in one way or another, with even pharmacies issuing their own, bringing everything under the dollar wasn't "communist" but a really good idea.

The Fed is really really un-Communist in structure or conception. As Tharkun said, it takes matters out of the direct control of Congress or the President. Even though the Board of Governors and the Chair Himself are appointments, more often than not the Fed is something that the U.S. Government has to deal with, not dictate to.

[Boyish-Tigerlilly]

This guys sounds like an anarcho-capitalist or some similarly out there ideologue see if you can get him to define both communism & capitalism I suspect you’ll find there’s no country in the world (apart from maybe Somalia) which comes close to his definition of capitalism.

True. I think he's one of those nutcases who thinks the FED chairman is a communist economic czar and that anything the regulates and restricts is communism. His newest idea is that Communism and Fascism are both the same.

I don't know what his ideology is specifically, but it does seem that anything regulatory or restrictive is communism/fascism. I think he's a Libertarian.

[Boyish-Tigerlilly]

Wait, "the Central Bank"... does he mean the Federal Reserve, which is the central bank of the U.S. Government? Granted it was invented to to centralize and regulate all the economic bullshit that existed prior to its foundation, but given that there were over 10,000 different forms of currency, in one way or another, with even pharmacies issuing their own, bringing everything under the dollar wasn't "communist" but a really good idea.

The Fed is really really un-Communist in structure or conception. As Tharkun said, it takes matters out of the direct control of Congress or the President. Even though the Board of Governors and the Chair Himself are appointments, more often than not the Fed is something that the U.S. Government has to deal with, not dictate to.

Yes. He does mean the Federal Reserve, but he calls it the "commie back of the united states." The Fed Chairmen is seen as some shadowy figure who steals property.

He talks about Nationalised COmmunism, but isn't that redundant? Isn't communism already based on the extreme nationalization of resources/industry?

Americans are ignorant when it comes to communism, and their unfounded fear was conditioned into them. You seem to be also.

Our government is not opposed to Nationalized Communism for us, and fascism for them. The "red scare" was a distraction.

Capitalism/Communism Simplified

If the public/government holds the capital it’s Nationalized Communism. If the private/individual people holds the capital its (Capitalist). They are parallels. (Merge) the two together, and you have (economic despotism), translation fascism otherwise known as corporatism. Same can be said for the merger of Nationalized Socialism, and Capitalism.

Pure Capitalism.

1) Pure Capitalism-You work for what you get, keep what you get, and raise your standard of living. Pure real independent competition, sets prices.

Pure Competition: A market characterized by a large number of independent sellers of standardized products, (free flow of information, and (free entry and exit). The sellers are price takers rather than (price makers).

In America, the monopolitic sellers are now the price makers.

That's a simplified and watered down as there are always variables to take into consideration. Depending on how much it (realistically) costs to produce, and transport, sellers still have that simple economic factor to always heed when pricing. Still, buyers will be able to be more discernerable as competition would be thriving in a pure competitive market. As of now government actually gets in the way, and hinders the natural order of commerce. This is no mistake, and more monopolitic entities form because of it. Government intervention, by definition, interferes with the process of supply and demand, throws off natural forces and degrades economies.

U.S. government installed capitalism is not capitalism.

2) U.S. government installed Capitalism- The (bank/Federal Reserve) owns it (all) you need (collateral/credit) to do (anything).

Executive orders have become paramount in subverting the USC.

"E.O. 11615 designated the Chairman, Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System as the director of a Cost of Living Council, with authority to request the Department of Justice to bring actions for injunctions "whenever it appears to the Council that any person has engaged, is engaged, or is about to engage in any acts or practices constituting a violation of any regulation or order issued pursuant to this Order." (See EO 11490."

The Chairman of the Federal Reserve Board thus became czar over

1)prices
2)rents
3)wages
4)salaries
5)capital
6)interest rates
7)stock market

What's left troll? That's our lifeblood.

All this granted under the provisions of the Federal Reserve Act of 1913. Same year as Income tax.

That is no different than Soviet Communism, the latter Stalinism. Government control, and ownership of capital is Nationalized communism. Soviet Communism was nationalized communism. It was not pure Communism. Instead now in U.S. government installed (capitalism), the big capital special interests bribe our government. First the government steals it from you. Income tax is a way to launder our capital.

Then the Big Capital special interests take it back concentrate it in a few hands, and (prices are fixed). Welcome to our (command economy).
A command economy is run by a strong (centralized government.

This bribing then transforms/unifies into a (cooperative) action between Big Capital special interests and our government. They then work with congress to keep them in power, and pass the legislation they pay for. They also elect them as it's capital that elects our so called representatives, you all are just along for the ride. That's economic fascism.

All the while you think your being represented. Corporations have just become an arm of the U.S. government. The common capitalist just trying to stay afloat is then (forced) to be an LLC. This is done to track (all) the governments loaned capital/revenue. You see, we are (all) renters of their capital.

A pyramid scheme controlled by the U.S. government, with them at the top of the pyramid. It's Fascism for them, and their special interests, and Nationalized Communism for the workers of America. How do you like being a worker ant?

This is a good one, you'll like this. Then imperialistic war is used to open markets, (not) create (peace or security). As a matter of fact, you can't create either with foreign imperialistic war.

Now's the time for our industrial military congressional complex. I say congressional as that was removed in it's inception. makes a whole lot more sense with it left in there, doesn't it America?

This industrial military congressional complex is then infused into we the people's lives, and we (all) work, slave, employee to fuel it. How's it feel to be a tool?

I know our U.S. government lies, says support our troops. What these relativist really mean is, support our tools. I certainly don't feel that way, that's just the reality of American corporatism.

So for those of you who want to deport the fascists, and the communist/socialist planners. You better be ready for a Revolution, because they will (not) relinquish power willingly.

It's quite batty, I think. I don't understand how people can be so into conspiracies.

[Gil Hamilton]

He sounds like a genuine anarcho-capitalist whackaloon. My advice is let him have his rant and let him wait by himself for the black helicopters to come for him.

[wolveraptor]

The irritating thing about these people is that they can rant for weeks on end, tire you out, and claim victory when you give up on them.

[tharkûn]

2) U.S. government installed Capitalism- The (bank/Federal Reserve) owns it (all) you need (collateral/credit) to do (anything).

Patently false, offer to swap him a stick of gum for some candy. The means of exchange is irrelevent the value of transaction.

The Chairman of the Federal Reserve Board thus became czar over

1)prices
2)rents
3)wages
4)salaries
5)capital
6)interest rates
7)stock market

Demonstrably false. When price controls have been introduced into the US economy they have been managed directly by the government or through a different appointed body. I wish certain of them would be managed by the fed as that would lead to fewer idiots making pricing decisions.

Rent controls are almost all overseen at the local level, not be the fed.

Wages are directly controlled by congress, if anyone, not the fed. Numerous times the fed and congress have butted heads over wage policy.

This is a good one, you'll like this. Then imperialistic war is used to open markets, (not) create (peace or security). As a matter of fact, you can't create either with foreign imperialistic war.

History again provides counterexamples. The Spanish conquest of Mexico ended much warfare. India became a decidedly more peaceful place once the British took control (compared to the fighting that was occurring prior).



But yeah he's gone. He simply makes statements and completely ignores history and logic.

[EugenicHegemony]

Can someone help me. I am conversing with a friend

Hello friend

[EugenicHegemony]

Yea, I have posted sources from the Departement of the Treasury and the IRS, and various texts, and I can't find shit about historians or economists saying Income Tax is our war tax, but then I am just a government bootlicker apparently.

Here you go, study.

True Tax

Income tax

History

Why?

Coercion

Theft

War tax.

[EugenicHegemony]

By the way. It's not *only* the income tax that this government launders for their wars.

[Surlethe]

So, EugenicHegemony, let me get this straight. You think the United States government is communist?

[EugenicHegemony]

History again provides counterexamples. The Spanish conquest of Mexico ended much warfare. India became a decidedly more peaceful place once the British took control (compared to the fighting that was occurring prior).

OH yeah, the apartheid was much better. Things didn't improve until they got there imperialistic asses out of there. History has never shown aggressive war torn imperialism as a positive action.

Patently false, offer to swap him a stick of gum for some candy. The means of exchange is irrelevent the value of transaction.

The nationalization of a supposedly free people's economy is irrelevant; how so? The means of exchange is never irrelevant when there's a monopoly on the acquisition of currency. Supply and demand is manipulated, natural market forces are manipulated, and economies degrade because of it.. A monopoly on a people's capital is irrelevant; how so? Interest bearing currency is irrelevant, how so?

I'll finish this later.

[EugenicHegemony]

So, EugenicHegemony, let me get this straight. You think the United States government is communist?

They have nationalized the entire economy and made it fascist for them and their special interest's and they use nationalized communism on the workers of America. You bet your ass. Have you seen what they've installed in Iraq?

Here's a link, enjoy...

http://www.politicalcrossfire.com/forum ... fighters?

[SirNitram]

Yea, I have posted sources from the Departement of the Treasury and the IRS, and various texts, and I can't find shit about historians or economists saying Income Tax is our war tax, but then I am just a government bootlicker apparently.

Here you go, study.

True Tax

'People are ill-informed about how the government funds itself. Ergo, government bad.'

Lacking: Communism.

Income tax

The history of American income tax. Lacking: Communism.

History

The history of American income tax. Lacking: Communism.

Why?

Bluster and hot air about how paper money is worthless. Illogical; money is worth exactly what the other guy will give you for it. That's how it's been since the first guy realized that exchanging stone spears and tiger skins would make life better.

Coercion

'Coercion'? It's now 'coercion' to enforce laws?

Theft

A highly nitpicking and semantic-based argument to claim that Congress cannot impose taxes. Unfortunately, it all hinges on declaring the Amendment's own description worthless. Anyone want to guess how likely that is in SCOTUS?

War tax.

A steaming, boiling load of manure. It only acheives it's numbers by dishonest numbers on governmental debt.

[DPDarkPrimus]

This should be amusing...