Proposed STGOD Setting.

[consequences]

Recovered fragment from an unknown source in system Alpha Sigma Niner, translation valid to 93% accuracy, +/-2%:

...Chaos came the Wild, and soon thereafter the first who could choose their own path, rather than have it shaped for them. And they sought to change the wild to suit them, lest it change them to suit it."

"For they knew."

"Upon working their will on the wild, they sought to force the wild back, and often found like minded others, who they sometimes joined, and sometimes fought, and sometimes simply let be, as it suited their current Path."

"For they knew."

"But upon achieving security, many of them became complacent, and sought not to change the world, but simply keep it as it was."

"For they began to forget."

"And so it came that others who had not forgotten came forth, and would cause them to briefly remember, and push beyond themselves, but all too soon they would lose their drive, and their purpose, and their Path."

"For they could know, but chose not too."

"And so it came, at the last iteration, that their glittering cities, and castles in the sky, and wonders beyond words were all cast down, and it seemed that the eternal foe had won."

"For it knew them, though they denied it."

"But a choice was made, and a Path was forged, to guide, and channel, yet to allow further choice."

"For I knew, and at last understood, and began to comprehend."

"And this Path stands to this day, ever changing, yet ever the same, and the people took their nemesis, and became it."

"For at last it was known, that to deny the eternal enemy was to let it triumph."

"And so it was said, and so it remains:

If they be Cattle, slaughter them, that they may serve in some small way.
If they be Sheep, herd them. that they may be sheared properly, and continue to serve.
If they be Goats, lead them, that they may prosper along with you.
If they be Men, then let them choose their Path, and their place.
If they be Like us, then greet them, whether it be with ideas, words, or weapon, and strive to make it that whatever emerges may be the stronger.
And if they choose to be other than they now are, then rejoice, for it is only by choice that the Long Night may be held at bay.

...And, if at last, they be our End, then make our ending one to be remembered."

-Ravener
Who was once Relentless Purpose
Who was once Guide to the True Path
Who shall never more be known as *script obliterated beyond allpossible reconstruction*

[Spyder]

Before we get too ahead of ourselves.
Empire point allocations.

My suggestion:

Minor: 2000
Regional: 4000
Major: 6000
Grand: 8000

6000 allows the declaration of up to 20 classes with 200 points devoted to each class as well as a 2000 point army for planetary engagements. With points spent in proportion the empire can produce 8 25 point battleships and 4 50 point dreadnaughts.

Here's an example of a declaration from a major power:

Refer to quick refference section for further information

Note that this empire doesn't use any dedicated carriers due to the relatively low values of fighter groups. The heavy cruisers and larger capital ships should provide enough capacity to transport the available fighters without the use of dedicated carriers.

Order of Battle
The Dummy Empire

Name [Cost][Specialty][Tag]
x Quantity

Ships

1. El Cheapo Frigate [1]
x 200

2. Anti-fighter Picket Ship [2][+1 F]
x 100

3. Destroyer [4]
x 50

4. Missile Destroyer [5][+2 W]
x 40

5. Strike Crusier [8]
x 25

6. Flak Cruiser [8][+4 F]
x 25

7. Missle/Torpedo Cruiser [10][+5 W]
x 20

8. Ballistic Cruiser [10][+5 S]
x 20

9. Heavy Cruiser [20]
x 10

10. Battleship [25]
x 8

11. Bombarder [40][+20 S]
x 5

12. Dreadnaught [50]
x 4

13. Juggernaught [100]
x 2


Fighter Groups

14. Light Striker [1]
x 200

15. Space Superiority [2]
x 100

16. Interceptor [2][+1 F]
x 100

17. Bomber [2][Bomber]
x 100


Defenses

18. Small Defense Sat [2][Defense]
x 100

19. Space Station [200][Defense]
x 1

20. Planetary Gun [20][Defense]


Ground/Non-Space General Declaration

Combined forces [2000]

Total Spent: 6000

[InnocentBystander]

Is there anything to stop me from making the following?

PD Frigate Type A - 2
x100
PD Frigate Type B - 2
x100
PD Frigate Type C - 2
x100
...Total 6 Classes (1200 pts) = 600 ships

Battlewagon Type A - 50
x4
Battlewagon Type B - 50
x4
Battlewagon Type C - 50
x4
... 14 Classes (2800 points) = 56 ships
2000 Points Planetary Defense

I don't recall reading any limits on where you put your points so... does this wank-tastic OOB fly?
This gives me sufficient point defense to do some pretty terrible things to missiles and fighters, and a wall of battle that's something like 3 times over Dummy Empire's, and let's not kid ourselves, half of that OOB has enough PD to hold it's own and MORE than enough capital scale firepower to keep the fights short and one-sided. One could be a little less obnoxious and put down fewer BBs in trade for say, some destroyers or weak cruisers for territorial enforcement, but *clearly* there is a problem here, don't you think?

[Thirdfain]

Ah HAH!
finally someone remembers why we did the escort/cruiser/capital scheme for so long, to prevent fleet Min/Maxing.

[consequences]

Is there anything to stop me from making the following?

PD Frigate Type A - 2
x100
PD Frigate Type B - 2
x100
PD Frigate Type C - 2
x100
...Total 6 Classes (1200 pts) = 600 ships

Battlewagon Type A - 50
x4
Battlewagon Type B - 50
x4
Battlewagon Type C - 50
x4
... 14 Classes (2800 points) = 56 ships
2000 Points Planetary Defense

I don't recall reading any limits on where you put your points so... does this wank-tastic OOB fly?
This gives me sufficient point defense to do some pretty terrible things to missiles and fighters, and a wall of battle that's something like 3 times over Dummy Empire's, and let's not kid ourselves, half of that OOB has enough PD to hold it's own and MORE than enough capital scale firepower to keep the fights short and one-sided. One could be a little less obnoxious and put down fewer BBs in trade for say, some destroyers or weak cruisers for territorial enforcement, but *clearly* there is a problem here, don't you think?

Well, I could be a twat and put five thousand points into bombers, which would turn your pretty fleet into scrap in short order, even if the PD frigates would cause signifigant damage. But then the guy who put any fraction of his points into fighters would own me in turn. There's really no such thing as perfection, or even anything close to it.

[Spyder]

Is there anything to stop me from making the following?

PD Frigate Type A - 2
x100
PD Frigate Type B - 2
x100
PD Frigate Type C - 2
x100
...Total 6 Classes (1200 pts) = 600 ships

Battlewagon Type A - 50
x4
Battlewagon Type B - 50
x4
Battlewagon Type C - 50
x4
... 14 Classes (2800 points) = 56 ships
2000 Points Planetary Defense

I don't recall reading any limits on where you put your points so... does this wank-tastic OOB fly?
This gives me sufficient point defense to do some pretty terrible things to missiles and fighters, and a wall of battle that's something like 3 times over Dummy Empire's, and let's not kid ourselves, half of that OOB has enough PD to hold it's own and MORE than enough capital scale firepower to keep the fights short and one-sided. One could be a little less obnoxious and put down fewer BBs in trade for say, some destroyers or weak cruisers for territorial enforcement, but *clearly* there is a problem here, don't you think?

Hmm, dummy empire's total ship line only reaches 2600 compared to your 4000, is an interesting problem. Taking defenses, specialties and bombers, Dummy Empire's total points vs an all warship attack is 4,480. As long as Dummy Empire deployed everything over it's homeworld it would stand a fighting chance. But they probably wouldn't do that, they're dummies with probably multiple planets to defend, so yeah it's a problem. One thing though, your planetary defense points, are those your non-space forces or stationary defenses? 2000 points worth of static defenses would be worth 4000 against all attackers but you wouldn't have anything to take and hold planets with.

Hmm...need to somehow provide advantages for diversity. They way I'd prefer to have it is so that if a player really wanted to they could make a complete battleship fleet, but they should forgo some advantage in order to do say. Same goes for those that want to build fighter fleets.

If that doesn't work we can always introduce spending caps (e.g. max 1/3 points per size class) which will pretty much make it like how it was before, only a little more consistant,specialties intact and no having to compare infantries bought with cruiser points to those bought with escort points. It's not what I'd personally prefer but it's a fair compromise if we have no choice but to force diversity.

We have size class limits, we have specialty values and we have a tagging system, there are a number of things we could do. One possibility is introducing tags that can only be used by certain size ships.

[Spyder]

That was actually the original idea. You run into problems though justifying weapons that can take out battleships but actually prove to be a disadvantage against cruisers. Works for gameplay, makes roleplay a little tricky.

What we could do is provide cruisers with an innate mobility bonus. Cruisers would have larger holds then escorts for carrying supplies and would be quicker and cheaper to run then the big ships.

[InnocentBystander]

One thing though, your planetary defense points, are those your non-space forces or stationary defenses?

Leftovers

6000 allows the declaration of up to 20 classes with 200 points devoted to each class...

800 Capital points vs 2800 Capital points. Both sides have similar amounts of point defense, and it should be blindingly obvious that while useful, when given equal values, capital beats cruiser every time.


Oh, and no all bombers would suck the big one. Think about how bombers are used and you'll realize that they're more like single use weapons, such as missiles.

[Glimmervoid]

That was actually the original idea. You run into problems though justifying weapons that can take out battleships but actually prove to be a disadvantage against cruisers. Works for gameplay, makes roleplay a little tricky.

What we could do is provide cruisers with an innate mobility bonus. Cruisers would have larger holds then escorts for carrying supplies and would be quicker and cheaper to run then the big ships.

Was that responding to me? I deleted my post soon after I made it because I miss read what he was doing with his ship buys. Should i put it back?

Any way what about each independent group of ships needs a “command ship” (which could be a special) but cruisers can be given a special that allows them to move about with out one. Command ships could be weak and expensive.

[InnocentBystander]

That was actually the original idea. You run into problems though justifying weapons that can take out battleships but actually prove to be a disadvantage against cruisers. Works for gameplay, makes roleplay a little tricky.

What we could do is provide cruisers with an innate mobility bonus. Cruisers would have larger holds then escorts for carrying supplies and would be quicker and cheaper to run then the big ships.

All I'm saying is that your system really doesn't work. Unless you start limiting the number of points I can use towards capitals, cruisers and escorts, it's exploitable, basically (mix/maxing, what Thirdfain said). And if you do limit it, we might as well just use the old system, because it's basically the same thing, and proven to work very well.

[Hotfoot]

All the old system did was FORCE people to buy ships they didn't want. It's a messy kludge that did nothing to change the dynamic. There should be very real reasons for why a nation would want to have cruisers and escorts. They have to do something of value, and if they don't, then just remove them from the game and make it Honor Harrington STGOD with lots and lots of big ships and nothing else.

[consequences]

Oh, and no all bombers would suck the big one. Think about how bombers are used and you'll realize that they're more like single use weapons, such as missiles.

Single use in a given engagement without rearmament perhaps, although the fact that they throw everything they have in one go means that they can do far more damage in that time than ships that need to endure sustained engagements. Since your fleet is outgunned two to one on points by the bombers, I don't expect much to reach weapons range of the thousand points of odds and ends this leaves me, including the carriers that will be rearming the bombers, presuming I completely neglect the ground forces. Allowing for a more realistic dispersal of 3500 points of bombers, you are still outpointed by more than fifty percent by the monster wave, your PD frigates will realistically be the first to die, you can't have them break formation to attack the motherships without being defeated in detail, and your battleships will probably never catch the carriers unless the carrier commander screws up by the numbers. This assumes that your frigates are specialised against small stuff, and the battlewagons are generalists, but your force correlation isn't going to get better than 6-7 against the bomber wave even if you specialise everything in anti-fighter ops.

Or I could declare my entire civilisation to be one planet populated all the way down to the core, and buy 4000 points of stationary that will laugh off your entire armada, and get promptly buried once someone expands enough to have sufficient forces to crush my defenses that haven't grown appreciably since game start.

Or one of the pirate powers could pick your entire empire apart, as the only ships you have suitable for anti-piracy work will be next to useless against anything escort sized or bigger.

As far as balance goes, I would suggest that a certain value of fighter carrying points be limited to slower speeds, lest you get the 4 point carriers that can launch a hundred fighter points each, and run away from everything larger than an escort

[Thirdfain]

Imperial Crobuzon Navy

Preliminary OOB

Small Craft

1."G1" Class Torpedoboat Squadron [10][Bomber]
Squadrons: 10
-100 pts total
the old G1 torpedoboats are found across the Empire, acting as police vessels and local defense craft in a number of systems. They are armed with a single torpedo tube and an assortment of light fighter and frigate scale guns. These vessels are very short ranged, but compensate by being cheap and well armed for their size. Atmosphere capable. Each squadron contains 5 craft.

2. "G5" Class Torpedoboat Squadron [20][Bomber]
Squadrons: 15
-300 pts total
The more modern G5 class Torpedoboat is part of the Jeune ecolé. this vessel is specifically designed to act as a parasite on a Dominion-class tender, operating in squadrons to attack enemy capital ships. Atmosphere capable. Each squadron contains 5 craft.

3. "B3" Class Gunboat Squadron[20]
Squadrons: 30
-600 pts total
The B3 is a contemporary of the G5. Mounted on a similar hull, the B3 dispenses with the single-shot torpedo tubes and instead mounts an array of light defense guns. This vessel is designed to hunt enemy small craft, and is specially designed to operate in atmosphere in a CAS role. EAch squadron contains 5 craft.

Escorts

4. "Ghul" Class Destroyer Escort [5][+2 F]
Hulls: 24
-120 pts total
The venerable "Ghul" class has been the escort vessel for the Crobuzoner Wall of Battle for almost a century. Long of tooth, this class has been redesigned and upgraded a dozen times. The launch of the new "Pax Crobuzona"-class superdreadnought Battleships and their "Vampir" modern escort destroyers means that this class will likely be phased out.

5. "Vampir" Class Destroyer Escort [8][+4 F]
Hulls: 100
-800 pts total
The Vampir is a very modern escort destroyer, equipped with excellent point defense and the most advanced OCOS.

6. "Grindylow" Class Destroyer Leader [8]
Hulls: 10
- 80 pts total
This large destroyer is almost a light cruiser, and is specifically designed to operate for extended periods at long ranges. The "Grindylow" class is equipped with a mix of missile, point defense, and light gun armament, making it a solid light combatant.

Cruisers

7. "Tarmuth" Class Protected Cruiser [10]
Hulls: 11
-110 pts total
Description: The Tarmuth-class Protected Cruiser is a light, fast vessel designed specifically to enforce the Empire, hunting pirates and projecting the Parliamentary Oligarchy's will. The Tarmuth class is modern, and continues to be mass produced.

8. "Bered Kai Nev" Class Armored Cruiser [15][+5 W]
Hulls: 6
- 90 pts total
Description: Contemporary of the "Urbis Victorious" class of Dreadnought, this vessel is showing it's age but continues to be a successful fleet auxiliary, acting as a battlefleet scout or raider.

9. "Ghosthead" Class Armored Cruiser [20][+10 F)
Hulls: 5
- 100 pts total
Description: Built to act as a fleet escort, the "Ghosthead" class mounts only a single pair of heavy guns, and is armed instead with a great variety of antifighter weapons and systems. It is somewhat under-engined, but very well armored.

10. "Dominion" Class Torpedoboat Tender [20][carrier]
Hulls: 5
- 100 pts total
This lightly armed large cruiser is built to act as a tender for squadrons of torpedo and gunboats. This design is new, and is part of a jeune ecolé in the Navy staff which is experimenting with tactics diverging from main fleet battleship doctorines.

11. "Admiral Stevanaphulis" Class Battlecruisers [20][+10 W]
Hulls: 5
- 100 pts total
These massive cruisers are another newer class, contemporaries of the Mayor Radaghast VI-class dreadnought Battleships. They mount similar main armament, in the form of 10 350cm heavy cannon, and are very fast, approaching the speeds of most heavy cruisers. However, it should be noted that this is achieved by skimping heavily on point defense and armor.

Ships of the Wall
400 pts
12. "St. Jabbar's Writ" Class pre-dreadnought Battleship [25][+5 S]
Hulls: 8, out of an original class of 50 registered as BB-90 to BB-139. It should be noted that BB- 124, originally ICNS Honorbound, was re-named St. Jabbar's Writ when the original nameship, BB-90, was considered too expensive to repair and broken up in 1922.
BB-97 ICNS Hieraeophant, BB-106 ICNS Warlock, BB-124 ICNS St. Jabbar's Writ, BB-132 ICNS Endurance,
BB-136 ICNS Maelestrom, BB-137 ICNS Tempest, BB-138 ICNS Stormborn, BB-139 ICNS Thunderchild.
Description: This class was ancient before the current Fat Sun coalition came to power, and time has done little to improve these veritable hulks, which originally were not even capable of FTL travel. Underpowered engines make these vessels far slower than modern capital ships, but their batteries of heavy guns remain potent. These older vessels also mount seige torpedo tubes, a feature abandoned in more modern Imperial Crobuzon Navy vessels.
Armament:
4 50m Torpedo Tubes
100 4cm Autocannon
100 5mth Sunspears
48 100cm Cannon
4 300cm Cannon

13. "Oligarch" Class pre-dreadnought Battleship [25]
Hulls: 12, out of an original class of 20 vessels numbering BB-140 to BB-159.
BB-140 ICNS Oligarch, BB-141 ICNS Hegemon, BB-143 ICNS Overlord, BB-145 ICNS Colossus,
BB-152 ICNS Gladiator, BB-153 ICNS Warrior, BB-154 ICNS Victor, BB-155 ICNS Champion,
BB-156 ICNS Dominant, BB-157 ICNS Majestic, BB-158 ICNS Paramount, BB-159 ICNS Preponderant.
Description: These older vessels represent the last class of pre-dreadnoughts built by the ICN. Large and powerful in their day, these ponderous ships are now being slowly phased out. The remaining vessels are too slow to keep pace with a Dreadnought fleet at full acceleration, but still pack a hefty punch.
Armament:
120 4cm Autocannon
100 6mth Sunspears
20 150 cm Cannon
6 300 cm Cannon

14. "Urbis Victorious" Class Dreadnought Battleship [40][+20 W]
Hulls: 20, numbered BB-160 to BB-179, in order:
BB-160 ICNS Urbis Victorious, BB-161 ICNS Urbis Imperialis, BB-162 ICNS Urbis Pietous, BB-163 ICNS Urbis Virtuous,
BB-164 ICNS Urbis Glorious, BB-165 ICNS Urbis Auspicious, BB-166 ICNS Civitas Superior, BB-167 ICNS Senatus Excelsior,
BB-168 ICNS Humanitas Imperator, BB-169 ICNS Great Easterly, BB-170 ICNS Great Westerly, BB-171 ICNS Southern Queen,
BB-172 ICNS Northwatch, BB-173 ICNS Urbis Militant, BB-174 ICNS Urbis Benevolent , BB-175 ICNS Urbis Munificent,
BB-176 ICNS Urbis Belligerent, BB-177 ICNS Viribus Unitas, BB-178 ICNS Viribus Potens, BB-179 ICNS Viribus Firmus.
Description: The first Crobuzoner vessel to abandon medium-sized gun batteries for a maximized battery of heavy weapons. This vessel also utilized the first high-efficiency Crisis Engines, providing far better acceleration and power generation and providing enough thaum flow to power an anti-capship Sunlance. This vessel is starting to show it's age, but is still a vital and powerful fleet combatant.
Armament:
50 2cm "Gatling" Autocannon
20 10mth Sunspears
20 300 cm Cannon
1 50gth Sunlance

15. "Mayor Radaghast VI" Class Dreadnought Battleship [50][+25 W]
Hulls: 30, numbered BB-180 to BB-199. The last ten vessels of the class re-started the number scheme, being BB's 1-10.
BB-180 ICNS Mayor Radaghast VI, BB-181 ICNS Mayor Rudgutter, BB-182 ICNS Mayor Stem-Fulcher II, BB-183 ICNS Mayor Beyn the Great,
BB-184 ICNS Indefatigable, BB-185 ICNS Redoubtable, BB-186 ICNS Assidious, BB-187 ICNS Audacious,
BB-188 ICNS Bellicose, BB-189 ICNS Challenger, BB-190 ICNS Steel Prince, BB-191 ICNS Iron Lady,
BB-192 ICNS Black Queen, BB-193 ICNS Red Duke, BB-194 ICNS Ambitous , BB-195 ICNS Unwavering,
BB-196 ICNS Fearless, BB-197 ICNS Valiant, BB-198 ICNS Conqueror, BB-199 ICNS Courageous.
BB-1 ICNS Mayor Triesti XII, BB-2 ICNS Mayor Tremulo the Reformer, BB-3 ICNS Mayor Turgisadi III, BB-4 ICNS Mayor Askane II,
BB-5 ICNS Mayor Cantiwine IX, BB-6 ICNS Mayor van der Gharabus VIII, BB-7 ICNS Mayor Weathers IV the Explorer, BB-8 ICNS Mayor Saxe-der Krimage II,
BB-9 ICNS Mayor Wrightby IX, BB-10 ICNS Mayor Kasmir-Fennec.
Description: Affectionatly called the "MRV" class in Navy shorthand, vessels of the Mayor Radaghast VI class are the mainstay of the Crobuzoner Wall of Battle. The MRV class is a basic dreadnought, with a huge battery of large-bore guns and a pair of short range but very high powered thaumaturgical sunspears. This class also premiered the current mainstream Naval obfuscation/counterobfuscation suite(OCOS) which is mounted on most Navy vessels, as well as the first capital-scale guided rocket batteries.
Armament:
50 2cm "Gatling" Autocannon
20 10mth Sunspears
18 350 cm Cannon
8 10-tube missile batteries
2 50gth Sunlances

16. "Pax Crobuzona" Class Superdreadnought Battleship [120][+60 W]
Hulls: 10
BB-11 ICNS Pax Crobuzona, BB-12 ICNS Cardinal of Myrshock, BB-13 ICNS Sovereign of Rohag, BB-14 ICNS Emperor of Shankell,
BB-15 ICNS Empress of Tesh, BB-16 ICNS Empress of Bered Kai, BB-17 ICNS Emperor of Suroch, BB-18 ICNS Diarch of Armada,
BB-19 ICNS Queen of Jesdul, BB-20 ICNS Prince of Chromlech.
Description: The "Pax Crobuzona" class represents the pinnacle of Crobuzoner naval engineering. Designed to outgun any othe known warship in a wall of battle, the "Pax" class has only started to be deployed in small numbers. This vessel also mounts the most modern OCOS, a system which may one day be deployed on all ships of the Navy.
Armament:
200 2cm "Gattling" Autocannon
50 12mth Sunspears
24 400 cm Cannon
10 12-tube missile batteries
1 1tth Sunlance

Ground Forces

The Militia
1000 pts
- The Militia's name belies it's purpose and it's nature. It is a well-trained, fanatically loyal organization which acts as the enforcement arm of the Parliament. It is the mirror-faced troops of the Militia that maintain order on conquered worlds. It is their extensive counterintelligence, blackmail, and informant network that protects the Empire from foreign and internal dissidents. It is part Gestapo, part Army, and part FBI. The reign of terror it maintains is complete. It's arrests are swift, brutal, and unexpected.
The combat units of the Militia are the bulk of the Empire's forces, but are generally used only in long campaigns and planetary defense.

Civil Marines
500 pts
- The Civil Marine Corps is the battle-hardened elite of the navy. These soldiers handle most offensive operations for the Parliamentary Empire, and most short campaigns are handled entirely by the Navy and it's Marines. The Marines have none of the policing and enforcement doctrine of the Militia, and are purely a combat organization.

- Attention!-
A note on the "Oligarch" and "St. Jabbar's Writ" classes of pre-dreadnought battleships. These vessels are of great age, with the oldest vessels being literally constructed of iron and steel, and some nearing a century in age. Many of these ships are battle-scarred, and their equipment is generally hugely out-of-date. They are, however, huge, battleship-sized vessels regardless (though smaller than their modern composite-alloy grandchildren.) They may be easy matches even for light cruisers of modern design, but this is not due to their weak firepower (though it is sub-par by far in comparison to modern warships,) rather, it is due to the abysmal state of their construction and their antiquated systems.

[Thirdfain]

Oh, and this is silly. Cruisers SHOULD be at a huge disadvantage vs. ships of the wall. They are too large to be hard targets, but too small to mount sufficient protection.

The purpose of cruisers has always historically been simple: To cheaply project power. They are long-duration raiders, fleet scouts, and hunters of enemy raiders. In an engagement with enemy fleet combatants, they should be shredded.

(Ghetto Edit)

Oh, and I'd point out that about min-maxing: Nations that didn't have a whole lot of need for long range power projection but still faced possible attack by enemy main fleets often *would* min/max. Check out the Austro-Hungarian Navy of WW1. They had no overseas colonies and their fleet existed pretty much only to fight the Italian fleet in the Adriatic and Medditerranean. Their fleet composition?

14 battleships
9 light and heavy cruisers
25 destroyers

Note that the Cruiser class gets very little attention...

Now, we are all big space nations, so the advantages of cruisers won't usually show up in fleet engagements. Rather, we'll see those advantages come into play when one player's commerce is completely ravaged, his supply lines are severed, his colonies are smoking holes in the ground, and the enemy always knows his location.

Don't expect to see them make much effect if thrown into battle with enemy capital ships, however.

[consequences]

"It is important to note, when discussing Ravener society, that in reality there is no society as such, simply a group that has found their leader's chosen path so compelling that they follow it whole-heartedly, and enforces their will on those who lack the will to choose another fate. As such, it is more a cult of personality on a stellar scale than a coherent culture. It is known that their Path, as they call it, has undergone signifigant change on at least three occasions, but still retains its core value set.

Unfortunately, their goals are in direct opposition to the well-being of our state. While the strength that they believe themselves to possess may be a laudable attribute under certain circumstances, it is intrinsically opposed to stability and peace.

Our efforts at destabilisation may have gone unnoticed for a signifigant length of time due to their overall lack of concern with such subtleties, but they are aware that they have an enemy, and that it is us. As has been previously communicated the embassy that they allowed us to establish was merely a courtesy, that would remain inviolate precisely as long as they chose to let that state of affairs continue. This communication is only being allowed to proceed because *translation unclear: Speaker To Animals/Guide to the Path/Bringer of Choice/Defier of Entropy-confidence 78%* has said that to force a choice in ignorance is contrary to the dictates of the Path. They want us to know they are coming, and that they are deliberately holding back portions of their strength.

There is little time. If you only take one of our reports seriously, then let it be this one, they will offer all their choice unless we can find one of our own to counter their's. They don't care about our rules, or laws of warfare, or the concept of noncombatants. If you do not have the will to choose, they will kill you exactly as it suits them, without malice, regret, or a moment's consideration after the fact.

May we have the strength to prevail. End Transmission."

Addendum to previous file, voiceprint matches previous speaker to 99.999999% probability:

"It is all so clear now. Our petty pretensions and illusions do not matter. There is only the uncaring universe, and a sentient's will to change it. We are coming."

-Endfile

[Captain tycho]

By the way, I call a grand power slot. At long last, UNLIMITED POWER!

Well, somewhat. Anyways, the basic premise of my nation (the Galactic Colonial Sanction, name might be changed later) is that of a booming frontier state, with a libertarian lean. Think the early US, lots of expansion and colonization going on. Heavy industry is just beginning to kick into high gear, massive amounts of migrants coming in from crowded city planets, freelance merchants, explorers, miners, etc, are plentiful, the works.

The GCS recently (within the last few hundred years or so) fought a brutal war with an alien race (aka The Rats, as they're commonly called) after their borders collided rather violently. The GCS undertook a huge genocidal campaign that virtually cleansed the Aurane sector of them.

The GCS has a small but very well trained and equipped volunteer army, and the navy will soon undergo a massive expansion and begin building
dreadnaughts and other larger ships of the line to replace its aging battleship fleet.

[consequences]

I'd like at least a major power slot if not a Grand Power, on the grounds that an aggressive Barbarian grouping isn't going to be much of a threat without at least that much weight of metal, nor will it inspire alliance groups to crystalise in its curbstomping if its a piddling little regional menace.

P.S. I promise not to pull a Straha.

[Pablo Sanchez]

By the way, I call a grand power slot.

Yeah, because I guess you actually get to decide that.

[Ford Prefect]

I would be pleased with only a regional slot. The Concordat isn't likely to be that powerful, plus I must observe, and learn. Can't do that if I'm dictating galactic affairs.

[Pablo Sanchez]

In order to smooth the process of figuring things out in the pre-game phase, it would be nice if people would post up a national description as a kind of preliminary OOB. We obviously can't have people just deciding that they will be a Great Power, and it's hard to figure out unless we get a clearer idea of what each nation is like (i.e., we don't want to give GP slots to powers which are natural friends again) or how good player will be able to handle a Great Power slot.

So, it would please us if you would post something like will soon follow here.

The Freehold

Government:
The Freehold is a republic with a democratically elected unicameral legislature, suffrage given to all citizens over the age of 20. The executive is headed by the First Citizen, who is also democratically elected and eligible to serve an unlimited number of six year terms. The First Citizen has traditional executive powers. The powers of the government over citizens is limited by an extremely long bill of rights.

Economy:
State Capitalism. All major corporations and utilities are operated by the government, but below that level private business are allowed and encouraged. The state guarantees housing, food, and medical care to all citizens according to their needs.

Ideology:
The Orcs of the Freehold are very politically conscious and completely opposed to what they concieve to be enslavement or inequality, but the definition of this is highly colored by their conception of societal roles. Orcs are very disciplined and duty-oriented; they will follow orders from a superior to a T, up to the point that they percieve their superior has gone beyond his authority over them or betrayed a lack of fraternal, egalitarian respect. Thus it is possible for an Orc of the Freehold to countenance the literal master-slave situation of one person owning another without much trouble provided that the relationship is one of mutual respect and understanding, while they would be instantly up in arms over a system in which debtors are imprisoned. There is thus an important distinction between slavery and Slavery with the capital "S"; while both are illegal in the Freehold, the presence of Slavery in another state would make positive foreign relations virtually impossible.

Within the society, the Orcs follow the creed of "Liberty, Equality, Fraternity." Every Orc is the brother/sister and equal of every other Orc, although circumstances sometimes require a token submission to an official superior as in the case of employee to employer or soldier to officer. This does not lead, as it might with humans, to a situation in which insubordination or disrespect to superiority is common. Orcs are highly disciplined and cooperative by nature, and they automatically form flexible hierarchies in a much more efficient fashion that humans. With Orcs, familiarity does not breed contempt.

Military:
The Freehold's military is firepower focussed. Their tendency is to try to overwhelm te enemy with weight of metal and firepower, although the ground forces have a strong infiltration tradition as well. Orcs also like guns and explosives more than energy weapons.

&

Orc Physiology:
Orcs are a designer species, and they bare certain special advantages because of this. The average male Orc is about 175 centimeters in height and weighs some 110 kilograms. Orc females are slightly smaller and weaker than males. Both sexes have dense muscular and skeletal structures, and their bodies are highly efficient with respect to energy and nutrient usage. A healthy and properly hydrated Orc produces virtually no liquid waste because of the efficiency with which his body processes water, they are resistant to poisoning and can extract nutritional value from many things that humans would find inedible, and they have superhuman stamina to match their vast strength. They can also heal more quickly than humans, and are more resistant to environmental extremes like temperature and humidity. The gestation for Orcs infants is seven months, and the life expectancy is 65 years for males and 70 for females.

Orcs are often percieved as being mentally slow or less intelligent than humans, and to some extent this is true. Orcs have little patience for the higher intellectual endeavors like literature and art. Virtually all films and plays produced in the Freehold are either comedy, action, or low romance (soft-core porn), and literature is locked in the pulp novel stage. They also typically use a very frank and tactless of way of expressing themselves, without a lot of pretty words or extra vocabulary. On the other hand, Orcs are adept at mechanical construction and very fond of "things that go boom," and although their products almost invariably fail to meet human aesthetic standards, they are no less effective for it.;

[consequences]

The Raveners:

Imagine the worst kind of barbarian horde, one that revels in bringing down civilised states, and only respects those like it. Now make it one step worse, and imagine that these people were not forced into barbarism by circumstance or outside action, but chose it as the most logical course they could see in order to survive and prosper. By now, its pretty clear that they were either right, or have more luck than any one group of space-going bastards have the right to expect over their lifetime as a unit.

Ideology:
Unlike other groups of barbarians, the Raveners most prize the act of becoming one with their path, so that instead of providing their icons with glorious titles, they first lose their name, becoming known as their position, then their position, becoming known as their achievement, then their achievement, becoming known as their attribute, then finally becoming known simply as Ravener, and in a few of the rarest extreme cases, having all record of the name they wer first known by eradicated.

By their lights, it is force of will that is most important, and so it is common for them to deliberately limit their forces when attacking a foe that they consider worthy, and even for individual warriors to deliberately handicap themselves, sometimes literally, in order to face a foe on even physical terms.

There are five basic tiers of existence for individuals subject to Ravener rule. The classification that loosely translates as 'cattle' means that you have demonstrated no desire to do anything with your existence, and regardless of any skills, knowledge, or aptitudes you may have, it subjects you to summary termination, or any other use that a higher tier may think of in order to obtain some utility from what they consider to be a waste of biomass. 'Sheep' have utility, and demonstrated the capability of being guided into useful tasks, but still may be ended if a legitimate need is perceived. 'Goats' are the baseline population of the polity, who can be trusted to accomplish things without actively being herded, but are unlikely to actively seekout new direction. Warriors are those who refuse to lt the universe dictate their path, and shape their destiny as they dee fit. Men are those who have not yet been introduced to the Path. It is possible for an individual to change his caste multiple times in the course ofhis life, although it is incredibly rare for anyone who has been cattle for any lengthof time to rise up from that state, or indeed even survive. Still, their is a grace period generally alotted as it has been recognised that temporary shock can incapacitate decision making. The precise length of the grace period and what measures are taken to bring an individual to a different state are of course up to the choice of the Warrior on the spot. This clear delineation is only seen on the core Ravener holdings, as more recent acquisitions still attempt to hold to their own value sets.



Government:
The form of government can best be described as a vaguely directed anarchy. At any given time, there are usually multiple protest and revolutionary groups active, but in a rare feat of common se1nse, they generally choose to limit themselves to methods that will not induce the populace to choose to exterminate them wholesale. The nearest thing they have to a true governing body is a set of individuals that embody the purity of the Path in its current form.

Economy:
Economically, on a per capita basis, the Raveners rate well behind equivalently valued powers. The methods of the Raveners do not lend themselves well to organised endeavors, and providers of goods and services are often working at cross-purposes. Perversely, this means that the most producticve areas are often the more recent acquisitions rather than long-term holdings, as new conquests have not submitted to the dominant meme. Whether this developed by chance , or is a deliberately engineered trait, the end result is a general trend towards expansionism.

Military:
Due to logistic issues resulting from their temperament, Ravener ships and ground forces tend to be energy weapon heavy. Because of the non-directed nature of their economy, smaller ships built from local resources are the rule, with even capital vessels being about as small as possible while still receiving that classification. Fighter tactics are present, but almost exclusively for defensive purposes, and bomber tactics and equipment is nearly unknown.

[Vicious]

I've tried to outline my proposed nation, but I think I chunked it into two posts. Let me recap it here:

The Cetaryn Republic is a group of merchantmen, freighter pilots and other "independant operators". They have no "homeworld", per se, but rather they are constructing a base of operations inside the Cetaryn Coalesence. The Cetaryn Coalesence is the remains of a planet that was destroyed in the galactic wars long ago. Rather than dispersing, the rubble fell into a relatively stable arrangement that followed the planet's orbit. Pirates have long used the Coalesence as a secret base, but it has been abandoned for some time. The various captains who joined the Cetaryn Republic aren't looking for a nationality to take pride in and a world to call home. They are looking for a safe haven to dock at, a convenient trading post to move cargo through and a society built around a frontiersman mentality. The leader of the Cetaryn Republic, Illidao Minos, might have grander plans for the Republic, but most of the captains don't really care.

Essentially, I'm angling for a very small power that is an economic mover, not a military one. What they do spend will be mostly on defense, although the Coalesence itself is a formidable deterrent to raiders. With only one charted "safe" passage in, it isn't exactly easy to sneak up on them.

The reason that they work as a nation is that everyone has one thing in common: the desire for profit. They are brought together by their mutual trade, and the construction of such a base would serve their needs quite well. They follow Illidao mostly because no one else wanted to lead, and it was his idea. They accept him as de facto ruler, and unless he tries to really screw with them, they'll honor agreements and commitments he makes, provided they can have an occasional say in the governing process.

Ideas, thoughts, criticisms? I've never done this before, so any tips or thoughts would be greatly appreciated. I know they are not going to be any kind of military threat, but that's what I want. I don't want to wage intergalactic war. I want to sell my goods, make friends and weave a trade network with my neighbours. And yes, they are not starting out with the base built. They still have to build the thing, which is going to take them some time, thus necessitating my eventual purchase of some military craft to serve as defense.

[Beowulf]

The Collective

Government:
None. Decisions are made by consensus of the five AIs.

Economy:
Command. Having no population to support, the Collective is able to choose exactly what, and how much to produce, without the fluctuations that a economy that includes organics would have.

Ideology:
Elimination of all threats to their masters. Their masters having been destroyed previously, this presents some problems. The word "mercy" is merely a word in their dictionary.

Military:
Having survived the destruction of their creators largely due to the fact that they were hidden, stealth and electronic warfare plays an important role in their military. Firm believers in the idea that there is no such thing as overkill. Makes extensive use of chemical weapons in ground combat. Will usually avoid combat on anything approaching equal odds.

Physiology:
Mechanical. Extensively hardened against electromagnetic effects (EMP), through the use of non electronic components like optronics and spintronics. Require no protection in most Chemical, Biological, Nuclear enviroments. Infinite loyalty, due to design. Smaller designs use fusion power, or highly efficient molecular distortion batteries. Larger designs utilize higher output power plants.

Brief History:
Originally created as a weapon system, the Collective consists of 5 AIs, each with a specific purpose. Designed during a war of annihiliation, they are utterly without mercy. They have no conscience, the only restriction on what they could do having been rendered null and void when their creating civilization was destroyed before they were fully activated.

[Pablo Sanchez]

Why would you respond to my request for a post matching something, when I hadn't even posted the example yet?

[Spyder]

Ok probably easier if I kick off an OOB thread shortly. What we can do is try the new system and see who wants to min-max and what effect the min-maxing has on gameplay, if things start to go south we can translate the OOBs back into the old system, people can say their I-told-you-sos and we'll carry on from there.

Oh, and personally I'm going to aim for a grand.