Vegetarian bullshit. I think...

[weemadando]

Not being a biologist myself, I was wondering if any of our more informed members could point out potential holes in this site's "scientific" argument for vegetarianism.

[Namarie]

Im not one of the more "more informed" members, but I can point out the obvious(because Im brilliant!). That chart... it says we dont have any pointy front teeth. *chews on finger* There are so totally a few pointy front teeth in there.

[mr friendly guy]

What is this "scientific" argument for vegetarianism.

If you are going to argue from an evolutionary point of view, I belief science contradicts that. Our brains need shitloads of energy. To provide it to us in only a relatively small body, we need meat which has higher energy content (the largest vegetarians tend to be larger than the largest meat eaters because they need larger stomachs because of this principle). Moreover our teeth are no longer "designed" for grinding purposes as they once were, suggesting a change to meat diet in our evolutionary past.

Vegetarianism also has some drawbacks in terms of deficiency in certain minerals - for example iron.

There is however some evidence that vegetarians live longer (can't quote off the top of my head). Presumably they must take supplements.

[Broomstick]

Very selective in comparing carnivore vs. herbivore characteristics, as well as pretty damn choosey about animal examples.

For example, they totally disregard eye position. Predator species tend towards binocular vision, eyes front. Prey species almost always have the eyes set on the side of the head, which means inefficient perception of depthy but a wide field of view to scan for enemies. Now, which group do humans fall into? That's right - binocular, stereoscopic vision like predators.

Pigs aren't hunters in the sense of canids and felines... yet they have no sweat glands. Are they predator or prey?

Humans require B12, which in the "natural" state is only available from animal flesh.

They're also disingenous about intestinal length - humans are actually intermediate between canids/felines and ruminant herbivores.

The truth is, we are neither carnivore nor herbivore - we ar eomnivores. We eat a wide range of foods, so wide in fact that we can eliminate whole cateogries without long term damage.

I have equally heard arguments that we are not "adapted" or "meant to" eat grains or cooked food. It's a little hard to determine grain consumption pre-agriculture (although many non-agriculturalists do gather and eat wild grains when available) but humans have cooked food throughout their existance - even our hominid predecessors were cooking, back to homo habilis and probably prior.

[The Guid]

The owner of the website states that meat eating causes cancer and many other diseases. I think my BS meter is on alert at least though a lot of it is quite compelling.

I would ask why on earth we started eating meat since apparently we are so unadapted to it etc. and why when meat is cut out of the normal diet we find people more likely to be weaker physically (unless they think about their and balance it out with what I would call a decent replacement for meat).

Also check his references, continually referring to the same 4 which I suspect are all behind him.

I imagine that he has misunderstood proteins as well. Though I will step back now and watch the true scientists make their case.

[Akhlut]

The "humans don't have claws or big teeth" argument is easily destroyed: we have tools to capture our prey and cut it into bite sized, easily digestable chunks.

The "perspiration versus tongue-cooling" argument is incredibly stupid. Could it just be that most predators that are mammals happen to share a relatively recent common ancestor and therefor share the same mechanism for cooling?

The pH of saliva argument is rather suspect, in my opinion. I don't know how many biologists have tested the pH of a wolf and compared it to the pH of a wildebeest. And, sure, we have enzymes in our saliva to break down plant sugars, but that's because we're OMNIVORES. The jackasses.

The GI tract length argument is also pure idiocy. We have a GI tract that is of intermediate length between that of meat-eaters and that of plant-eaters. The length of a meat-eater's intestinal tract isn't geared so much toward getting rid of potentially decaying meat, I suspect, as most meat-eaters will eat rotten meat. I suspect it's geared more toward not wasting precious resources on growing huge intestines. Thing is, plants require a great deal more intestines to digest than do meat. Also, unlike ungulates and most other plant-eaters, we can't digest cellulose for shit. All it does is make us poo. The site is also outright lying about the length of the human intestine. It is a mere 25 feet/7.5 meters long, which is only about 4.3 times the height of an average person, not twelve times the height. Hmm, odd, that seems to be a hell of a lot closer to their figure of 3 times the length of the GI tract of a meat-eater to its height/length than the ten-to-twelve times the body length of a plant eater.

Further, the author of the website seems to conveinently forget the Eskimos/Inuits of the North American Arctic who (used to) survive on diets that were essentially nothing but meat and fat. As in seal meat dipped in melted seal blubber. That's what they'd eat for months at a time. It had to be raw, though, otherwise they'd get scurvy. And they lived relatively long lives that were ended more often by harsh environments rather than clogged arteries, if I'm not mistaken.

All in all, the whole article is pretty much bullshit. I wouldn't doubt that most Western diets could be improved by less meat-eating and saturated fats, but I have no doubt that humans are omnivores that gladly eat meat naturally.

[Akhlut]

Pigs aren't hunters in the sense of canids and felines... yet they have no sweat glands. Are they predator or prey?

Mostly prey, but they do enjoy their carrion. Wild pigs and warthogs will eat from carcasses and scare off minor scavengers (jackals, ravens, etc.) from a kill to get at the intestines and whatever meat is leftover.

[Braedley]

Why doesn't this guy mention other omnivores? Like bears for instance. Or scavengers like raccoons. No, he just totally disregards a group of animals which we as humans fall into.

Two more things. Who is he quoting just above the table? If memory serves, Another Author isn't actually a name. And Jane Goodall is famous for her extensive work with chimps, and not primates in general.

[arigo]

There is however some evidence that vegetarians live longer (can't quote off the top of my head). Presumably they must take supplements.

It probably doesn't hurt that eating a very low colorie diet is tied to sir-2 gene activation.

I didn't even bother to read the article because I think it's retarded to justify anything with " because we were meant to". If eating meat was linked to being healthier, it could be sufficient moral justification to take the life of a lesser animal. As it stands, research says otherwise. I do eat meat because I like it, and I'm an ass.

[Gil Hamilton]

Tonight on Man v. Animal we have a hunting competition between Team Cougar and Team Man to hunt and catch a deer. The deer will be released at 50 yards and the first animal to successfully catch the deer will be deemed Top Predator. Let's talk to our contestants.

Cougar: "Well, Kent, I think we got an excellent chance today. These humans are tough competition, but I think our vastly superior running speed and fierce jaws and claws will win out. Hah hah... they're practically herbivores from what I hear. I'd like to thank Cat Jesus for today and my loving wife at home WOO! WE DID IT BABY!"

And man?

Human: "Those damn pussies have been talking shit all day about our sweat glands and flat molars, like calling us Slip-n-Slide, but we got an ace up our sleeves today. Don't worry about us, Kent".

There you have it. The competitors are heading to their starting positions... the competition is about to begin. Quiet please, quiet... The deer is being lead into position, the referee is raising the flag. AND THE DEER IS OFF! TEAM COUGAR IS IN HOT -- *CRACK!* OH! TEAM MAN HAS DRAWN THEIR RIFLES! THE DEER IS DOWN! MATCH TO TEAM MAN! WHAT AN UPSET!

Human: "Who needs slashing claws and flesh masticating jaws when evolution gave us huge brains and opposable thumbs?"

[arigo]

There is however some evidence that vegetarians live longer (can't quote off the top of my head). Presumably they must take supplements.

It probably doesn't hurt that eating a very low colorie diet is tied to sir-2 gene activation.

I didn't even bother to read the article because I think it's retarded to justify anything with " because we were meant to". If eating meat was linked to being healthier, it could be sufficient moral justification to take the life of a lesser animal. As it stands, research says otherwise. I do eat meat because I like it, and I'm an ass.

[Boyish-Tigerlilly]

Meat-eaters have fast enough reflexes to ambush or overtake a victim. You do not. Try catching a pig or a chicken with your bare hands; see what happens."

I don't get this one. HOw is this evidence of our lack of meat-eating nature? Why would humans have to be the same type of predator and have fast reflexes and speed? Didn't we evolve down another path that negated the disadvantage of not being big, mean, and fast, which allowed us to survive another way?

I don't see why all predators should have to to be exactly the same in terms of psysiological and behavior strategies.

Your mouth can not seriously wound nor is it made to really get a good bite into an struggling victim like true carnivores can.

Don't humans have a stronger, deadlier bite than some dogs? IF a human bite is considered to be too "weak" to be a carnivor, wouldn't this, according to said logic, mean that said dog species that has a lesser bite or equal bite is not a true "predatory" and "carnivrous?" That's confusing.

[Boyish-Tigerlilly]

Edit: It also seems to be totally glossing over teh fact that we also have sharp canine teeth... ARe those pointy whities for munching veggies?

[Justforfun000]

These so called "arguments" against us being meat eaters is ridiculous! It really doesn't matter if we are "supposed" to eat meat, and I use that term very lightly. What matters is CAN you eat it! is it nutritious? Does it offer certain nutrients that are vital and found primarily in meat, possibly exclusively? Is there any true reason why NOT to eat it?

One of the stupidest arguments people can start a premise from is the "supposed" to bull. It's begging the question that we have to follow some laws of the universe that are apparently written down somewhere for us to obey.

[Boyish-Tigerlilly]

That's one thing I was thinking too. What is with the whole argument that Humans aren't meat eaters? Who said they were carnivors? Aren't they Omniverous? As such, even if they originally were largely vegetation consumers, that doesn't mean they couldn't also eat flesh: they are oppertunistic creatures.

[Justforfun000]

The people that promote vegetarianism as a rule are NOT doing it in the name of nutrition. It is almost always because they don't like the cycle of death necessary to provide us meat. They would much prefer that we eat only plant life. It makes them feel better.

While from a purely idealistic point of view I can understand...I mean, I like animals and wish them no ill will. I wouldn't be able to easily kill one personally to eat it.
Still, we don't live in Disneyland, we are in the real world and it bears no resemblance to Bambi. The food chain is part of life. If you choose to exempt yourself from that aspect of it, by all means do so. It should be your own choice. But at least be honest as to the reasons and don't push a pseudoscience agenda on other people just to confuse them into thinking it's "wrong".

Ultimately, we live in a savage garden. When you accept that in its entirety, these "moral" issues lose their confusion.

[Solauren]

I counter there entire website and claims by people dropping dead while on Vegitarian and Vegan diets without taking the vitamins and supplements to replace what you lose by not eating meat.

Oh, and lets not forget the kids that do not develop properly and/or die on those diets.

[Justforfun000]

I counter there entire website and claims by people dropping dead while on Vegitarian and Vegan diets without taking the vitamins and supplements to replace what you lose by not eating meat.

Oh, and lets not forget the kids that do not develop properly and/or die on those diets.

Well...It's not THAT extreme...you would need to go an extremely long time as a TRUE vegan before the B12 deficiency would even be serious....years from what I recall..

There are many cultures that do fine on a vegetarian diet, and it can be a very healthy lifestyle choice because lets face it, we DO need a lot more greens and such in our diet. They have very special nutrients (antioxidants and so forth) that greatly enhance our health. So you could actually be much healthier in the short term by switching to a veggie diet...but then it's the long term that has to be taken into consideration...

For one thing, the ever more popular nutrient Omega 3 is exclusive to meat I believe....or at least normally as to people's common food items. Supplements are a different ball game....

In any event the truth is smack dab in the middle. Moderation in all things. We are unquestionably omnivores and since we are lucky enough to be at that current evolutionary advantage, we can choose to eat a wide variety of foods to nourish us. So for those who aren't ridden with angst over the meat issue, it's simply another tasty choice.

No doubt we all eat too much meat. It's kind of rammed down your throat (no pun intended) when you look at the average restaurants main meals. Meat is the star attraction.

[arigo]

Oh, and lets not forget the kids that do not develop properly and/or die on those diets.

Does that happen very often? My brother was a vegetarian his entire life. He's 6' 5", decently built , graduated second in his class. (dropped from first on purpose so he didn't have to do a speech.) Scored in 99.9th percetile on asvab, blah blah blah. You get the idea. He didn't ever take any special suppliments. All my life I told him he should eat meat, and I'm trying to get my other brother to as well because I think it helps one to develope physically faster, which is beneficial in school. (partly because of the hormones in the meat, which one could argue was unnatural) I don't know if I buy people dropping dead because they are vegetarians though.

[Rogue 9]

Im not one of the more "more informed" members, but I can point out the obvious(because Im brilliant!). That chart... it says we dont have any pointy front teeth. *chews on finger* There are so totally a few pointy front teeth in there.

My cuspids might as well be referred to as canines. How pointed the teeth are varies from person to person.

And the whole argument leaves out one indisputable fact: Our digestive systems can handle meat. No herbivore's digestive tract can do that. Their cute little table leaves out several factors. Humans are omnivores, and they only listed those traits that correspond to herbivores because it's convenient to them to do so. They're lying about the length of the human intestine too; it's nowhere near 12 times our height. We simply don't have a body cavity big enough to contain an intestinal tract that long even if we did grow one; it would require total restructuring of the human body shape.

They also conveniently forget that the fruit eating apes they compare us to will kill and eat meat. Oops.

[Akhlut]

Edit: It also seems to be totally glossing over teh fact that we also have sharp canine teeth... ARe those pointy whities for munching veggies?

They're remnants from our past when we fought among each other with teeth instead of sharp words.

As I mentioned earlier, our tools do most of the work for us these days in the way of "chewing."

[wautd]

Ugh... the first thing I read was the claws-no claws argument. Somehow that was proof for me that this site was as honest as your average YEC website. Come to think of it, is it me or is there a lot of "humans are designed" shit going on as well?

[His Divine Shadow]

Im not one of the more "more informed" members, but I can point out the obvious(because Im brilliant!). That chart... it says we dont have any pointy front teeth. *chews on finger* There are so totally a few pointy front teeth in there.

Indeed, my canines are extremely pointy, almost vampiric.

[Dark Hellion]

You can also compare us to animal near relatives in the primates to find that they are generally omnivorous as well.
And frankly, we all know that one day Chimps will invent cutlery, and then we are all fucked!

[Plekhanov]

This site is just the vegetarian equivilent of creation research or all those anti-choice sites which claim that having abortions will lead to women dieing of cancer if they don't commit suicide due to "post abortion depression" first.

By which I mean the site author has taken a moral/emotional stance & has then cherry picked, distorted & outright fabricated evidence to try and make out that their moral/emotional stance is really an objective, scientific one.