"Obi Wan Once Felt as you did..."

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2005-12-14 12:22pm

No he didn't.

We all remember the scene in ROTJ when Luke impores to hsi father "Come with me." Vader's response was "Obi Wan once felt as you did." Except we all know from events on Mustafar that Obi Wan most certainly did NOT ask Vader to come with him nor in fact even offered Anakin a choice in returning to the light. Obi Wan showed up to kill Anakin and Anakin knew it.

In fact it was Anakin who seemed to be begging off the upcoming fight by asking Obi Wan not to force him to kill him. Obi Wan was indeed 'lecturing' to Anakin even then at the end instead of trying to talk to him.

We do know that Padme was the one who said "Come with me." and considering what Luke represented in the OT that is a far more touching connection and call back that a young man who had no memories of his mother and spent his whole life searching for and idolizing his father actually took on the mother role in that confrontation on Endor.

But Vader instead sees a connection to Obi Wan which IMHO makes no sense. Unless either Vader has romantacized that confrontation much as Obi Wan embelished the fall of Anakin and rise of Darth Vader for Luke. Perhaps Vader felt regret about what happened with Obi Wan and imparts that into Luke.

But even that makes little sense when one considers that the sole reason Anakin fell - willingly- was Padme. It was all about Padme in PT yet she rates not even a mention in the OT in particular a scene that is a direct call back to her imporing him on Mustfar to come away with her.

Thoughts on this weird comment by Vader?

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-12-14 12:32pm

it's rather simple Luke at this point knows nothing (for all intents and purposes) about his mother, so the name Padme means nothing to Luke and Vader/Anakin knows this so Vader uses the Obi-wan in instead of Padme to drive his point across (that that Vader is loyal to the Sith and the Dark Side).

Tychu · Post by **Tychu** » 2005-12-14 12:33pm

Obi Wan did not go to Mustafar to kill Anakin. Your forgetting the whole scene when Obi walks down the ramp when Anakin is killing Padme. For a person who is trying to kill Anakin he is stalling quite a bit. Obi Wan was offering or trying to bring Anakin to see the errors in his ways. Only when Anakin reveals that he dosent care about the Jedi and Obi Wan is when Obi pulls out his saber. Remember he was hesitant to take on the mission given by Yoda to him in the first place

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2005-12-14 12:39pm

Tychu wrote:Obi Wan did not go to Mustafar to kill Anakin. Your forgetting the whole scene when Obi walks down the ramp when Anakin is killing Padme. For a person who is trying to kill Anakin he is stalling quite a bit. Obi Wan was offering or trying to bring Anakin to see the errors in his ways. Only when Anakin reveals that he dosent care about the Jedi and Obi Wan is when Obi pulls out his saber. Remember he was hesitant to take on the mission given by Yoda to him in the first place

I always read it as Obi Wan was hesitant to be assigned but when it was time to go he was ready to kill him. Remember Padme could see it right away.

"You're going to kill him."

"He has become a very great threat."

Obi Wan was ready to kill him the moment he stepped off that ramp. Yes he was stalling but you cannot compare his "You've become all you've tried to destroy." to "Come away with me. Leave this all behind and help me raise our baby."

Luke's intent on Endor clearly mirrored Padme's and NOT Obi Wan's attitiude on Mustafar. And in response to the rather interesting take that Luke wouldn't know Padme if Vader said "Your mother felt the same way." I think it would have some emotional impact on Luke. But I agree that Luke obviously had a deeper bond with Obi Wan than anyone else even a vague mother figure.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2005-12-14 12:45pm

Actually to take Stravo's a step further...especially since this is Anakin's viewpoint.

HE percieved Obi-Wan a threat the instant he saw him. He didn't do anything to Padme until he saw a threat and then jumped the gun.

In Anakin's mind Obi Wan was there to kill him. Luke wasn't. Personally I see it a bit of Lucas not knowing what the past was, and really we should chalk it up to Vader manipulating rather then reaccounting his thoughts at the time.

Tychu · Post by **Tychu** » 2005-12-14 12:48pm

Stravo wrote:
Tychu wrote:Obi Wan did not go to Mustafar to kill Anakin. Your forgetting the whole scene when Obi walks down the ramp when Anakin is killing Padme. For a person who is trying to kill Anakin he is stalling quite a bit. Obi Wan was offering or trying to bring Anakin to see the errors in his ways. Only when Anakin reveals that he dosent care about the Jedi and Obi Wan is when Obi pulls out his saber. Remember he was hesitant to take on the mission given by Yoda to him in the first place
I always read it as Obi Wan was hesitant to be assigned but when it was time to go he was ready to kill him. Remember Padme could see it right away.

"You're going to kill him."

"He has become a very great threat."

Obi Wan was ready to kill him the moment he stepped off that ramp. Yes he was stalling but you cannot compare his "You've become all you've tried to destroy." to "Come away with me. Leave this all behind and help me raise our baby."

i see where your coming from. I think though that Obi-Wan is facing a dilema. He knows he's going to have to kill Anakin. But theres a diffrence in knowing something and wanting to do something. He went to Mustafar because he knew he had to Kill Anakin, but he didnt go to Mustafar because he wanted to Kill Anakin. When Obi-Wan declared Anakin a Sith he knew he was going to kill Anakin

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2005-12-14 01:22pm

Hell, even towards the end of the fight, he was still willing to talk to the guy, rather than just hack and slash away.

Then there's the "high-ground" quote, of course.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2005-12-14 01:36pm

Well its possible that Obi Wan had hoped all along that Padme might be able to wake him up to what he is becoming and only appeared once he begin to feel that Anakin was getting out of control.

All througout the fight Obi Wan seemed to try again and again to find his friend in the person he was fighting even to the end.

He even tried to make Anakin see what he has become. But to no avail. The fight ended with Obi Wan defeating Anakin but not killing him outright(don't tell me he couldn't have just cut him in half). Perhaps there is more to that than we really actually saw.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2005-12-14 01:49pm

The heart of the observation is not whether Obi Wan never tried to talk to Anakin or was just out to kill him but whose sentiments better fit Luke's intent on Endor - Padme's or Obi Wan's. I posit that clearly Padme's interaction with Anankin on Mustafar is a far more perfect fit to Luke on Endor than Obi Wan's.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-12-14 01:54pm

Luke expects to die along with Vader and the Emperor if he can't convert Vader, because of the impending Rebel attack. It's not so much different from Obi-Wan's intent as it might seem. If Obi-Wan had no intention of trying to convert Anakin, he wouldn't have bothered arguing with him about the righteousness of his cause.

Civil War Man · Post by **Civil War Man** » 2005-12-14 11:30pm

This is fairly half-assed reasoning, but keep in mind that the subject of Padme would still be extremely painful to Vader. If he said, "Your mother felt the same way," they might enter some line of conversation about her, and it would be hard to keep them from eventually arriving on the fact that Vader was directly responsible for her death. I doubt Anakin would want to dwell on that memory, nor would he want to reveal it to his son and even further alienate the last known remnants of his family.

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2005-12-15 12:13am

"Anakin, Chancellor Palpatine is evil"
"From my point of view, the Jedi are evil"
"THEN YOU ARE LOST"

Combined with his talk with Anakin at first, it's pretty obvious Obiwan had hoped to not have to kill him.
However, Anakin never had proof of that, and might have been infuring.

Also, we have no idea if that had a discussion on board the Death Star. It's possible Obiwan did say 'look, there good in you, come back with me"

Post by **Vympel** » 2005-12-15 03:00am

There's no evidence of a conversation on the Death Star- the novel didn't mention it, that's for sure. By that time, Obi-Wan had already convinced himself. Notice how he calls Anakin "Darth".

Anyway, I think Vader inferring that Obi-Wan once thought as Luke did from their few words exchanged on Mustafar is weaker than Vader saying "your mother ... once thought as you do."

I think that was one of the great lost opportunities. It probably would've brought up too many unanswered questions, and Luke's reaction would need to be different.

Straha · Post by **Straha** » 2005-12-15 03:11am

I think Obi-Wan went to Mustafar hoping Anakin, his dear friend and someone who he viewed like a son, would repent and come back. He delays fighting Anakin, he tries to talk to Anakin the entire time to see if the possibility of repentance is possible, and he doesn't kill Anakin, all this seems, to me at least, to mean that Vader knew, through force empathy or later reflection, that Obi-Wan wanted to go back to Yoda with Anakin at his side, and didn't actually want to kill Anakin as he was supposed to.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2005-12-15 03:58am

Vympel wrote:There's no evidence of a conversation on the Death Star- the novel didn't mention it, that's for sure. By that time, Obi-Wan had already convinced himself. Notice how he calls Anakin "Darth".

Anyway, I think Vader inferring that Obi-Wan once thought as Luke did from their few words exchanged on Mustafar is weaker than Vader saying "your mother ... once thought as you do."

I think that was one of the great lost opportunities. It probably would've brought up too many unanswered questions, and Luke's reaction would need to be different.

It would also be a terrific tie-in to the conversation Luke has with Leia on Endor about her parents.

Or at least it could have been.

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2005-12-15 12:27pm

Solauren wrote:"Anakin, Chancellor Palpatine is evil"
"From my point of view, the Jedi are evil"
"THEN YOU ARE LOST"

"Come with me father."
"I have to obey my master"
"Then my father is truly dead."

Faqa · Post by **Faqa** » 2005-12-16 08:05pm

Maybe Luke's appeal, in it's unconcious parallel to that day on Mustafar nearly twenty years ago, threw Vader off? Majorly?

He may have thrown that response out to cover his OWN turmoil and emotion here.

Or maybe, to take another perspective, Vader's blocked Padme out by this point? He killed her, from his POV. He's had a long time to cope with that. Maybe his coping was utter, perfect repression? To the point where he barely remembered her?

I agree, in-universe, that connecting Luke to Padme makes more sense than to Obi.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2005-12-28 11:51am

"You were my brother, Anakin! I LOVED you!"

Post by **Coyote** » 2005-12-30 01:20am

Vympel wrote:There's no evidence of a conversation on the Death Star- the novel didn't mention it, that's for sure. By that time, Obi-Wan had already convinced himself. Notice how he calls Anakin "Darth".

Obi-Wan was oddly exact and proper about people's titles. I noticed watching RoTS again that no sooner had he learned about Chancellor Palpatine declaring the First Galactic Empire that he immediately began referring to him as 'the Emperor'...