SWIII questions

[avatarxprime]

I always thought that Obi Wan didn't just Force crush the Acklay's brain because that would definately be a dark side action. I mean, OK using a Force bubble to burst Durge wasn't exactly friendly, but it was a method to free himself, so possibly acceptable. Crushing the Acklay's brain would be directly offensive and using the Force to kill, something Jedi aren't supposed to do.

[000]

I don't buy lack of concentration being the reason they didn't shove the buzz droids off their fighters. On Mustafar Skywalker and Kenobi used the force to anticipate one another's strikes, amplify their strength, do all sorts of jumping and shove all sorts of things around, all while carrying on an intense duel and preventing the extreme heat from killing them. That requires a tremendous amount of concentration, certainly more than when simply flying a fighter in a straight line.

[Winston Blake]

We also have to wonder why he didn't Force-crush the acklay's brain instead of trying to spear it.

Jedi seem adverse to physically manipulating the internal structure of an opponent in a damaging way, even animals. Fear of the dark side and all that.

It was certainly a life-or-death situtation for Obi-wan, and he could have tried to choke it to halt its advance and until it was unconscious. Yoda had no qualms about pre-emptively wall-slamming those two Red Guards into next week, and Luke had no problem with using Force-chokes to incapacitate the Gamorrean guards in Jabba's palace (although he was post-Republic).

Besides, I think Obi might have been too busy avoiding it's strikes to get a clear hold on its brain (alien biology might also make it more difficult.)

He had a decent pause from all the dodging when he took the spear and concentrated on aiming/throwing it.

[Srynerson]

This would appear to be an error, yes.

Are there any canon accounts of a Jedi using TK through vacuum?

Why the hell would that make any sort of difference? Telekinesis isn't like a sonic pressure wave.

Well, as there are canon examples of using TK through vacuum it's moot (I'd repressed the memory of the force push from the Jedi Academy novels). There is, however, a certain logic to TK requiring an intervening medium to transmit pressure to an object.

[Winston Blake]

I don't buy lack of concentration being the reason they didn't shove the buzz droids off their fighters. On Mustafar Skywalker and Kenobi used the force to anticipate one another's strikes, amplify their strength, do all sorts of jumping and shove all sorts of things around, all while carrying on an intense duel and preventing the extreme heat from killing them. That requires a tremendous amount of concentration, certainly more than when simply flying a fighter in a straight line.

He should've been able to, he needed to, and yet he didn't for some reason. Consider that they were using the Force to anticipate the paths of innumerable TL bolts and amplify their fine handle over the controls. I doubt there was anything simple about flying a fighter through the Battle of Coruscant. So what else could it have been?

[Noble Ire]

It was certainly a life-or-death situtation for Obi-wan, and he could have tried to choke it to halt its advance and until it was unconscious. Yoda had no qualms about pre-emptively wall-slamming those two Red Guards into next week, and Luke had no problem with using Force-chokes to incapacitate the Gamorrean guards in Jabba's palace (although he was post-Republic).

There's a difference between the attack you proposed and TK/Force choke (especially since Luke didn't kill them). Jedi, at least the ones in Luke's order have quams about manipulating internal organs, especially for fatal effect, whereas the other situations involve no-permanent, external damage. As for why Obi didn't choke it, I can only assume he wasn't too experienced in that kind of technique, and didn't want to risk taking the time to try it, especially on a creature with a much higher endurance level than a humanoid. Some Jedi, like Jacen Solo and Anakin (the reek in the same scene) can calm non-sapient beasts with the Force, but it seems to be a skill not all Jedi share.

[Darwin]

We've only seen the force choke from Anakin/Vader and Luke in the movies. It's quite possible that it involces a dip into the dark side that Obi-Wan hadn't even considered.

Also the simple force push might require an uninterrupted line between jedi and target, and it just won't work through a spacecraft canopy, or any other sort of intervening object.

[The Original Nex]

Also the simple force push might require an uninterrupted line between jedi and target, and it just won't work through a spacecraft canopy, or any other sort of intervening object.

Well, Vader is able to Force choke Ozzel through many bulkheads, and that's more or less TK.

[Kurgan]

I just remembered something... when I was a little kid I thought perhaps that the Imperial officers all had mechanical gadgets installed into their shirt collars that Vader could activate to choke them as punishment, sort of like that Star Trek TOS episode with the electrical choke collars, or how the guys in the mirror universe all carried those shock devices so the officer could punish his underlings for disobedience.

I guess that was my way of explaining why Vader never choked anybody else in the movies, except Captain Antilles, and then he had to physically squeeze the guy's throat.


Of course I since had to give up that childhood theory after watching Luke choke the Gammorean guards a few times.

[JointStrikeFighter]

Also he was choking the imperial officer on the death star [the name slips me right now]

[Doctor Doom]

I think a possible explanation can quite possibly be that Obi-Wan is just human, after all. Even with enhanced abilities, it is possible that simply when under stress (we know he doesn't like to fly) it simply slipped his mind or some such.

[Cykeisme]

Also the simple force push might require an uninterrupted line between jedi and target, and it just won't work through a spacecraft canopy, or any other sort of intervening object.

This makes sense. When a Jedi pushes something he may be extending an unbroken line of force from himself to the target. Perhaps, at the very least, TKing something behind an obstacle requires a great degree of focus and concentration to visualize/feel the target through the Force, then manipulate it.
This same hypothesis may also explain why a creature like the Acklay (with a hard exoskeleton) may be hard to hurt with TK. Note that choking a human being doesn't require that the trachea itself be TK'd; Vader may simply be crushing the front of his victim's entire neck.

Would the consensus be that, in general, it seems to be difficult to use TK when engaged in melee combat?


As for the lack of flightsuits, I'd say that if they could survive Mustafar's surface, they just might be able to survive the vacuum of space, at least for a limited period of time. The physical durability that Anakin's hitchhiking incident demonstrates would probably keep their insides in, and their ability to survive the poison gas in TPM would take care of the lack of oxygen, for some time at least.

[Kettch]

I think we're working too hard on the jedi end about force pushing the buzz droids.

Obi-Wan & Anakin are already familiar w/ buzz droids. Obi tells R2 where exactly to hit one. They pull some really wild stunts to get them off Obi-Wan's fighter. Obi-Wan can break concentration enough to give advice to R2 who is siting on Anakin's ship. I conclude that fore they know that force pushing will not succeed in dislodging the buzzdroids. Probably because other Jedi have tried & failed. Obi also does not try to jink them loose.

The purpose of the buzzdroids is to attach to a ship & disable it, thus they must be build to withstand attempts to disloge them, such as the extremely high, multi-g manuvers that a start fighter can perform. The would be useless if the fighter could perform several 30-G Ilmans or S-Turns to break them loose (Love them intertial compensators). They may be able to attach themsleve's strongly enough to with stand being ripped off at what would be a safe re-entry angle for a ship. * Obi-Wan's force push may not be strong enough to disloge them & he knows that.


*I'm purely speculating here & its possible that this is not a design consideration. They may have figured that the BD's should cause enought damage by the time the ship reaches the atmosphere to make reentry too dangerous.

[Kojiro]

I'll throw my RotS question in here then. Granted I know little (compared to people here) about the SW universe but I was wondering where Coruscants ground defenses were and how the CIS fleet got inside the shield.

I assume Palapatine could have had something done about the shields but I'm curious to know where the Hoth style ion cannons were. Guns that can knock down and disable an ISD with a shot seem pretty handy and I struggle to believe Coruscant didn't have any.

[Isolder74]

I'll throw my RotS question in here then. Granted I know little (compared to people here) about the SW universe but I was wondering where Coruscants ground defenses were and how the CIS fleet got inside the shield.

I assume Palapatine could have had something done about the shields but I'm curious to know where the Hoth style ion cannons were. Guns that can knock down and disable an ISD with a shot seem pretty handy and I struggle to believe Coruscant didn't have any.

Perhaps they are reluctant to shoot down a ship that may have the chanceller on board. I beleive that Grevious managed to pull a hyperjump right into they system which allowed him to get his ships under the sheild before it could be raised. Then they can't raise them because that would only stop their own fleet from engaging the CIS fleet which would then be able to fire on the planet with ipunity to destroy the generators.

[Noble Ire]

I'll throw my RotS question in here then. Granted I know little (compared to people here) about the SW universe but I was wondering where Coruscants ground defenses were and how the CIS fleet got inside the shield.

Sidious provided secret hyperspace routes that allowed Greivous to bypass the main defense fleet and move into the planet's upper atmosphere before the shields could go up (afterall, considering the traffic volume, iniating a planetary shield without proper fore-warning could result in the destruction of hundreds of civilian vessels.

I assume Palapatine could have had something done about the shields but I'm curious to know where the Hoth style ion cannons were. Guns that can knock down and disable an ISD with a shot seem pretty handy and I struggle to believe Coruscant didn't have any.

It almost certainly did, along with planetary turbolasers that can crack an ISD in half with a few hits. However, remember how close the Republic fleet had to be to the CIS vessels to keep them from escaping, the risk of collateral damage is too great. Besides, I'm sure that the defense force wanted limited casualities, even on the CIS side. Millions died on Coruscant from falling debris as it was. More fire volume would have made it worse.

[Kurgan]

Anti-Midichlorian Shielding (tm).

[Kurgan]

Also he was choking the imperial officer on the death star [the name slips me right now]

Yeah. I was thinking he's like Doctor Evil... get mad, press a button and PEOPLE DIE! (like Admiral Ozzel)

I was a little kid...!

[NRS Guardian]

I'll throw my RotS question in here then. Granted I know little (compared to people here) about the SW universe but I was wondering where Coruscants ground defenses were and how the CIS fleet got inside the shield.

I assume Palapatine could have had something done about the shields but I'm curious to know where the Hoth style ion cannons were. Guns that can knock down and disable an ISD with a shot seem pretty handy and I struggle to believe Coruscant didn't have any.

Coruscant does have ground defense TL and Ion Cannons. They're mentioned in LOE and the ROTS novelization. The reasons they don't play a major part in the battle is first many were destroyed by the Seps in the initial attack no planetary shield protecting them, unlike Hoth's gun. Also, most of the guns were too busy shooting down the debris of crippled or destroyed ships before they crashed into buildings killing thousands of people. Coruscant is one big city afterall, and you'd want to limit the damage from ships crashing into all those buildings.

[Kojiro]

Given the comments I read about hyperspace speeds and fleet momement capabilities it's it a little foolish to not have the shield up during sucha time of war? Can't they open portions of the shield to let traffic in and out? Or at least have the ground defenses (along with other important structures) shielded seperately?

As a side note do any starships carry those Ion cannons (like Executor) or is turbo laser volume sufficent to cause similar effects?

[Noble Ire]

Given the comments I read about hyperspace speeds and fleet momement capabilities it's it a little foolish to not have the shield up during sucha time of war? Can't they open portions of the shield to let traffic in and out? Or at least have the ground defenses (along with other important structures) shielded seperately?

On most planets, keeping the shield up is a viable strategy. But Coruscant is so active that the open star lanes would have to be so large that having them at all would be pointless, since a good-size fleet could slip through any of them. And there are seperate, theater shields across the planet, mnetioned heavily in LOE, as well as Star by Star. However, they do not cover a majority of the planet, only small sections, like the Senate district.

As a side note do any starships carry those Ion cannons (like Executor) or is turbo laser volume sufficent to cause similar effects?

Planetary scale weapons firepower shot per shot would be beyond most starships, save for ones that are designed around a center-line gun, because they can draw of the planet's power grid, energy reserves most ships cannot access.

[NRS Guardian]

It is possible for Star Battleships and Star Dreadnoughts to carry guns similar in power to planetary weapons. However it's usually a better idea to just carry several less powerful guns rather than a few very powerful guns. Because the smaller guns have better ROFs, and if you have more you can cover more of the hull giving you better coverage and fewer blindspots. Also, having several smaller guns is a better idea because losing one small gun out of a thousand isn't as bad as losing one big gun out of twenty.
Edit: when I say smaller gun I mean an ISD HTL turret, compared to a planetary TL.

[Kurgan]

On a planet like Coruscant with such constant danger of ship crashes, the fire ships seem like a good idea (and they of course would need something more than regular fire hoses shooting water), but a better idea would be to have not only those runways (which would otherwise be poinless since all SW craft seem capable of taking off and landing vertically like a helicopter), but tractor beams and such to stop them from smashing into buildings and killing thousands or tens of thousands!

I haven't read LOE, but didn't the ROTS novelisation say that thousands of civilians had been killed by crashing debris during the battle of Coruscant? It just seems like they should have been better prepared for that, even if there had been no major war in a thousand years. What about drunk drivers and pile ups? Road rage? Those are a concern pretty much every major city in the world, and here it's even worse with them falling to earth and doing even more damage.

[Noble Ire]

In all likelihood, there were some ground-based tractors, but they probably weren't designed to catch an asteroid-sized ball of flaming debris plummeting towards the planet, much less hundreds of them, along with thousands of smaller bits that had been broken off and destroyed star fighters. As an aside, the fireships have tractor beam projectors, hence their "bringing in" of the IH.

[NRS Guardian]

Yes, the reason ships ended up making it to the ground to destroy buildings was volume. Sure they could handle a few ships crashing from an accident. But there were thousands of capital ships fighting, and even say a command tower or other large but not neccessarily critical structure could be blown off and find itself falling to earth and it would still be able to cause damage if it hit a building.