Question for the mech-heads around here

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Post by Hotfoot »

Vympel wrote:
Or the dreaded Vandal, with the Medium Artillery Missiles:

Effective Range: 24000 m, 25 meter blast radius
Penetration: 324 mm armor-grade steel

May not destroy heavy armor, but it'll stop infantry charges or IFVs (or most Gears) dead.
I like Heavy Gear. But really, the above makes no sense. Does everything in the blast radius get penetrated to the extent of 324mm of this steel, or only a direct hit?
Well, the way Heavy Gear handles damage, the better (more accurate) the hit, the more damage it does. That's probably a "direct" hit, with damage attenuating as the blast expands. The damage multiplier of the weapon (which is hard to put into penetration terms for a MOS 1) is the least amount of damage it could possibly do and still hit. A medium artillery missile has a DM x18, which means that against most gear armor, the least it could possibly do is light damage (which still has a chance of destroying the gear, however slim). That's assuming that the Gear is on the edge of the radius, or has something shielding it from the brunt of the blast.

Infantry, however, has a maximum damage of 12 or so (since they're soft targets, they operate on the hitpoint principle). A medium artillery missile, at worst (MOS 1), will completely wipe out a squad, as damage for blast radius weapons are applied to each infantryman individually. Meanwhile, a cannon with DM x18 with a MOS 1 would likely kill one infantryman and severely wound another, assuming a damage of 12, which is on the extreme high end for infantry (standard infantry squad is usually 5).

There are two ways to figure out the proper abilities of weapoons. One is to take the MOS 1 value as the basic penetration value, which means that the better the shot (the higher the MOS), the more vulnerable a place it hit (somewhere with less armor than average, place where the armor was weakened in previous engagements, etc). The second is to consider an arbitrary MOS (for example, MOS 3) to be the basic penetration value, as the penetration tests were done in a lab firing a stationary gun at a stationary target. Everything below that point doesn't penetrate as well as the lab results for a variety of reasons, and everything above that result managed to strike a weak point in the target.

It's possible that DP9 used the second method for determining damage properties, but we'd have to ask them to be sure. After doing some quick calculations, it seems that the penetration appears to be roughly the square of the damage multiplier. This holds true for most weapons in the game.
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Post by Neko_Oni »

I love the silhouette system, but it's 'accuracy affects damage' system can make weapon comparison's difficult. I'm currently converting warhammer 40K into silhouette based RPG, if anyone would like to give me a hand (esp. with Tyranids, Space Marines. Please PM, don't hijack this thread :D ).
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Post by Hotfoot »

Neko_Oni wrote:I love the silhouette system, but it's 'accuracy affects damage' system can make weapon comparison's difficult.
Perhaps, but I think it's a damn sight better than what most systems use. I mean, how do you quantify 4D6 hitpoints? :shock:
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Ask me again in a month.
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Post by Neko_Oni »

Hotfoot wrote:Perhaps, but I think it's a damn sight better than what most systems use. I mean, how do you quantify 4D6 hitpoints?
Don't get me wrong, MoS/MoF system kicks to kinds of shit out of any other RPG system out there, but it's not very conventional. You can compare DP9 damage multipliers by squaring the rating. This puts them all into roughly the same scale. (since it's stated that a DM twice something else is four times as powerful.)
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Post by Neko_Oni »

Hotfoot wrote:Perhaps, but I think it's a damn sight better than what most systems use. I mean, how do you quantify 4D6 hitpoints?
Don't get me wrong, MoS/MoF system kicks ten kinds of shit out of any other RPG system out there, but it's not very conventional. You can compare DP9 damage multipliers by squaring the rating. This puts them all into roughly the same scale. (since it's stated that a DM twice something else is four times as powerful.)
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Post by gravity »

Vympel wrote:How sad- "waaahhhh- this game's about mechs- mechs own all- oh shit we found something that owns mechs ... make it weaker!"

Infantile losers.
What the fuck? Were they supposed to just let that imbalance destroy the game? I don't see how adjusting the rules to maintain the original spirit of the game (giant robot combat, realistic or otherwise) is being an "infantile loser". What an incredibly ridiculous criticism.
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Post by gravity »

JediNeophyte wrote: That's the standard Clan Timberwolf configuration. And if you want a missle-boat, take a Mad Dog, not a Timberwolf.
Yeah, but the whole point of omnimechs is that they allow customization, and the standard configurations normally suck. In fact, the Timerwolf's is particularly bad, I can't see why I halfway competent mechwarrior would take that into battle unless they had no other choice.
As for missile boats, any heavy mech will do really, though this is for the game Mecwarrior 3, rather than the BTech minatures game (there are obviously differences, though the basic system is the same).
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Post by gravity »

Well, ok, I exaggerate, the basic Timerwolf configuration is *tolerable*, but it's horrible lacking in focus, even amongst the various ranged weapons.
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Post by Vympel »

gravity wrote:
What the fuck? Were they supposed to just let that imbalance destroy the game? I don't see how adjusting the rules to maintain the original spirit of the game (giant robot combat, realistic or otherwise) is being an "infantile loser". What an incredibly ridiculous criticism.
Yes, and the original spirit is that these ludicrous giant robots are the ultimate thing on the battlefield, and any vehicle which can own them must be made weaker so as to maintain this ridiculous premise.
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Post by gravity »

Vympel wrote:
gravity wrote:
What the fuck? Were they supposed to just let that imbalance destroy the game? I don't see how adjusting the rules to maintain the original spirit of the game (giant robot combat, realistic or otherwise) is being an "infantile loser". What an incredibly ridiculous criticism.
Yes, and the original spirit is that these ludicrous giant robots are the ultimate thing on the battlefield, and any vehicle which can own them must be made weaker so as to maintain this ridiculous premise.
Well, what's wrong with that? A premise of Star Wars is that space-fighters are useful vs capital ships, but that doesn't mean that in the games they should let capships totally own fighters in order to increase "realism". Most science fiction (game or otherwise) is based on some sort of "ridiculous premise", that doesn't make it "wrong". In the B-tech universe, tanks are supposed to be weaker than mechs, so when a loophole was found to avoid this, it was closed. It's just a balance issue, it's not worth getting angsty over because it's not "realistic", especially when the whole idea of interstellar empires conducting wars is unrealistic in the first place.

Besides, Battletech (or at least Mechwarrior 2 and 3) is infinitely cooler than any tank game I've seen, so I don't care whether tanks killing mechs is more realistic or not.
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Post by gravity »

Remember, Battletech is intended as a *game*, not a justification for vs Debates.
The reason tanks were toned down was because they were breaking the game (which is the same reason all games have balance changes made), not because the developers were afraid of people losing vs. debates that they probably didn't even know existed.
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Post by Slartibartfast »

I've read over and over what an omnimech is, but I have trouble grasping the concept. Is it supposed to be some kind of uber-mech? Or simply a mech that you can add and remove stuff freely... as far as I know people can pretty much configure their mechs anyway they want. Or not?
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Post by SylasGaunt »

Well they can but it comes into play in regards to cost and roleplay elements because changing the armament on a non Omnimech is supposed to be difficult, expensive, etc.

With an omni on the other hand its something you can do before every battle.
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Post by Vejut »

Normally, takes alot of effort to change mech armorment, where as Omni's can do it easily in about half the time (swapping out mounted "Pods"). This somehow makes them much better than fixed armorment units (I guess because you can just buy one more expensive chassis and use it for everything, rather than two or three different fixed-gun chassis?), or at least everyone in the Battletech fluff seems to think so...
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Post by Typhonis 1 »

Aklso it can be configured to a pilots preference
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Post by Slartibartfast »

Ah, so I take it that all computer Mechwarrior games (not including the first) use Omnimechs, then? That or they take a really big creative license?
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Post by Vejut »

No, they just let you control everything because Btech fans like to tinker.

But MW2 does use Omni's, they just are WAAAy more customizable than they are in the board version.
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Post by Brother-Captain Gaius »

Omnimechs are also sometimes depicted with "hands" on the 'mech to "hold" the weaponry, though this varies from product to product.

And gravity, I agree with you on most of your points, except for your views on the standard Timberwolf config :wink: In 'Mechwarrior 2, 3, and 4 I've always had incredible success with that basic idea (since the in-game mechanics make it impossible to follow that config exactly). It gives your 'mech long range main armament and support (PPCs and LRM, respectively), and short range, rapid fire weaponry in case you get rushed by a little annoying Kit Fox or some such. There's little need to get more "big guns" after the PPCs and LRMs, so might as well spend the extra tonnage on short-range "doorstops", armor, and jump jets.
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Post by Brother-Captain Gaius »

Just noticed an error I made:

The picture I posted on page 2 is not Smoke Jaguar, its Ghost Bear. :oops:
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Ghosties and Diamond Sharks are cool.
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Post by Kettch »

On Omni Mechs (Using the BT Compendium as source):

Litterally an Omnimech is a Battlemech that has modualar equipment 'pods' that can be changed out relatively quickly in the field. Equipement that cannot be mounted in a Pod include Engines, Armor, EndoSteel (Lightweight Internal Structure) Omni's are built to take what ever weapon you want & to slap it in and do so in a very rapid manner "Pod replacement takes 30 minutes." It is ambiguous if this is a single pod or the whole shebang. (122-123)

(128) Cost (CBill Price) for an omnimech is +25% to the Pod Mounted weapons & equipment & +25% to the Structure Cost above the fixed equipment costs. (Some mechs, like the Firestarter Omni & the Naga have a mix of Pod & Fixed Equip.)

Standard Mechs can be modified. But we are talking truely moding the suckers, changing them inways that may not have been intended. Engines can be ripped & replaced with bigger or smaller. Armor can be added or stripped, heat sinks added, or missle racks ripped out to make room for lasers, etc. But you'll need a mech shop with sufficient tooks, a lot of time, (You'll be taking things off that were not supposed to be removed to get at the components) and a nice big chunck of money. All assuming you tech succeeds in the skill rolls & doesn't F-Up the whole thing. Pods are like removable Camper Tops on a pickup. Fixed equipment is like adding a sun rood to a sedan that donesn't have on.

Omni Mechs are considered kick @$$ in part because they were concentrated in the hands of Front Line True Born units of the Clans, where they were in the hands of the 'better pilots.'

So what is the real advantage of an Omni? Extreme flexability. Remeber that BTech supply lines are really long. Brought to many Ammo based mechs & running low on supplies? Or did you forget to bring enough LRM support units? Well with standard BTech you're screwed. It reinforcements are available on a planet within 30 light years it takes about 2 weeks transit to get the equipment to you on average, assuming typical distance to Nadir & Zenith, drop ships & jump ships available and not using pirate (Lagrange) points. Add about 1 week + for each additional 30 lightyears.

If you have Omni's then a missle mech can be broght off the line & 30 minutes later become an all laser mech or have anit infantry weapons swapped in to go city hunting. It may not be as good at the role as another Omni or Standard BMech designed arround that role, but it does allow a commander to equip for the task with

Also in the repair time for damaged equipment is much longer than doing a pod swap, allowing for much shorter turn arround time in cases of heavy damage. (Armor repair is identical)

The advantage of Omni's in a single battle is a greater likely hood of bieng properly equiped for that battle (Commander Stupidit / Error not withstanding) . The advantage in a campaign is tremendout. ER Lasers & PPCs for the engagements on the plains, NARCs & LRMs out in the hill country and SRMs, MGs & AC/20s in the city.

So in brief, that is why Omni's are so powerful and why they are most definately worth the expense, especially on the offense.
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Post by Vympel »

gravity wrote:
Well, what's wrong with that? A premise of Star Wars is that space-fighters are useful vs capital ships, but that doesn't mean that in the games they should let capships totally own fighters in order to increase "realism".
Did you mistype? Fighters arent useful against cap ships in Star Wars, and all the X-Wing games have always been moronic in this regard. I would actually prefer that your single X-Wing cannot kill an ISD and will be slaughtered if you try. I like realism in games- I want to be afraid of an ISD, not spend 20 minutes shooting at its anemic turrets so I can kill it and get bonus points like in X-Wing Alliance or complete the secret mission objective in TIE Fighter
Most science fiction (game or otherwise) is based on some sort of "ridiculous premise", that doesn't make it "wrong". In the B-tech universe, tanks are supposed to be weaker than mechs, so when a loophole was found to avoid this, it was closed. It's just a balance issue, it's not worth getting angsty over because it's not "realistic", especially when the whole idea of interstellar empires conducting wars is unrealistic in the first place.

Besides, Battletech (or at least Mechwarrior 2 and 3) is infinitely cooler than any tank game I've seen, so I don't care whether tanks killing mechs is more realistic or not.
Yes giant robots are cooler. But Mechwarrior annoys me (subjective opinion) because it has a predetermined idea which has no basis in fact and then designs combat around it, rather than going for a balanced future warfare scenario.
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Post by gravity »

JediNeophyte wrote: And gravity, I agree with you on most of your points, except for your views on the standard Timberwolf config :wink: In 'Mechwarrior 2, 3, and 4 I've always had incredible success with that basic idea (since the in-game mechanics make it impossible to follow that config exactly). It gives your 'mech long range main armament and support (PPCs and LRM, respectively),
But why use both PPCs *and* LRM, rather than just more of one? It doesn't make sense to have two different ranged weapons that both need to be grouped and fired seperately for best effect, it reduces your ability to concentrate firepower.
and short range, rapid fire weaponry in case you get rushed by a little annoying Kit Fox or some such.
This is useful if you don't have lancemates, but a good long-range mech can take on most mechs, especially with the dumb computer AI controlling them.
There's little need to get more "big guns" after the PPCs and LRMs, so might as well spend the extra tonnage on short-range "doorstops", armor, and jump jets.
True, extra equipment can help a lot, but you may as well focus those big guns so you can concentrate your firepower, always vital if you want to quicky take out your enemies (which you do).
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Post by Vympel »

In Mech4 I just loaded up my mech with as many Clan ER large lasers as possible, packed in the heat sinks, and killed everything. Talk about easy ... though I doubt it'd be too effective in multiplayer.
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Post by gravity »

Vympel wrote:In Mech4 I just loaded up my mech with as many Clan ER large lasers as possible, packed in the heat sinks, and killed everything. Talk about easy ... though I doubt it'd be too effective in multiplayer.
The main problem with using lasers in Mech 3 multiplayer was bad lag due to the crap netcode. Apparently that's be improved in Mech 4, so that loadout might be more effective. It *was* pretty good in Mech 3 single player, I used it myself. The most effective thing I tried in Mech 3 multi was a missle boat, though.
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