Imperial Remnant vs UPF

[Ender]

From the latest shit starting thread, I'm going to go over a few things here. First off is that I am including the Hand of Thrawn. Why? Because they provided men and material upon request by Imperial leadership. They also appear to have provided resources and possibly a production base (this is about the only way to rationalize the massive build up seen between Dark Tide and Destiey's Way)

Imperial remnant
Territiory:
IR: Down to 8 sectors, or roughly 400 planets IIRC.
HoT: Consists of another 250 sectors, and is a network of military and political alliances.

Production/Economy:
IR: Imperial space has one major (System spanning) nationalized shipyard, however it does purchase ships and muntions from outside sources (IE CSA, the NR, Hutts). Training/Cloning centers are unknown. Economically, Munnilist is a major money trading system in the Outer Rim. This should provide them with a modest income via trade and lending deals.
HoT: A network of military and political alliances with supply bases, training centers, and shipyards. It is self sustaining, and is capable of taking on Yevetha type enemies without much trouble. And according to Zahn, the HoT was to serve 2 purposes: Pacify the UR (stated in the books), and to provide a force to resist the Vong, who Thrawn/Palpatine were aware of (stated in interview). This incicates that the majority, if not all of it is dedicated soley to military buildup.

Civillain Leadership/Society:
IR: 8 moffs control the Remnant, with one of them being the speaker for them. They seem to defer to the military in major decisions, though the military largely lets the moffs do the governing and stays out of their affairs. In terms of society, after the changes enacted by Dalaa the nohuMAN policy has been largely eradicated. Aliens and females serve in all positions, and the planets all support the Empire.
HoT: Led by the military, with passing contact with civillian governments. All else is unknown.

Millitary Leadership:
IR: Under the command of Grand Admiral Pelleon. According to Essential Guide to Chronology, Pelleon is one of the best commanders the Imperials have seen, combining a grasp of tactics and strategy imparted by Thrawn and the brutal terror strikes favored by Dalaa. His losses to the NR only occur when he is outnumbered and out gunned. He was slow to rise through Imperial ranks though; possible explanations are that he began as an enlisted and shifted over, that he lacked the political assets to advance in the Navy we see in the movies, or that his early jobs consisted of large amounts of "shore" duty. All these are possible given the timeline; he joined at age 16 at the start of the clone wars, and Leia had him pointed out when she was young, but still young enough to remember him. If Leia was 10, that gives him 12 years of unknown time.
Pelleon is in favor of peace, but does want to expand and empower the Empire. He surrendered only because it was in the Empire's best interests at the time. In Destiney's Way he offers to join the NR in the fight provided that the Empire gets to keep any planets it takes, showing a clearly expansionistic outlook.
HoT: Led by a cabal of Chiss and Imperial leaders who base a philosophy off that of GAT. Largely unknown, but seem isolationist.

Millitary:
IR Navy: As of Spectre of the Past, Navy consisted of 200 Imperator class Star Destroyers (ISD2 or some like the Chimera, ISD3) and an unknown amount os smaller battleships, cruisers, destroyers, frigates, gunships, and patrol craft. However, by the time of DW, it had produced and Executor class Super Star Destroyer, and enough Imperator class Star Destroyers that they would be considered a powerful ally for either side. Given that most fleet battles in the NJO series consist of over 1000 ships, this says one hell of alot about their offensive capabilities, though we lack hard figures. (Note that given their production capabilities this doesn't match with earlier figures, hence my belief that HoT kicked in a lot of production facilities and resources for them)
IR Fighter Corps: As of SotP, they lacked starfighter production capabilities. They had a mismatched grouping of upgraded TIE Interceptors, I-7 Howlrunners, A9 Vigilance Interceptors, Sorosub Preybirds, and Scimitar Assault Bombers. The fighters are not indicated outside of this time frame except for references to Chiss Clawcraft in DT and upgraded TIEs.
IR Ground Capabilities: Armor is unknown. It is possible they still have TIE Crawler scout tanks, Tank Droid heavy tanks, SD series support droids, and the classice AT-AT APCs, but unlikely to have them in numbers, if at all. In terms of troops, a parade formation was amassed on the grounds for a fly by in DW. The size of the parade grounds is unknown, but if it were similar to the Washington Mall, it would be comparable to the massing scene we saw in AOTC.
HoT Navy: All indications point to a huge navy using combinations of Imperial and alien tech but numbers are unknown, and irrelevent as we have no evidence of chiss capital ships aiding the IR
HoT Fighter Corps: Largely consists of Chiss Clawcraft from what we have seen. Their fighter underwent many changes after contacting the galaxy at large in DT:Ruin (possibly they gotthe latest tech from the remnant in exchange for resources and ships?). Skill is difficult to judge as their elite squadron is the only one seen in action
HoT Ground Capabilities: Total unknown, outside of the fact they use mazer based weaponry weaker then blasters

UFP:
Territory:
150 major planets, unknown amount of colonies or planets laid claim to spread across 8000 LYs

Production/Economy:
Production is presumably still winding down from Dominion War levels, but should be able to be brought back up to there quickly. Latest production rates are unknown. Economy... let's not go there.

Civillian Leadership/Society
Same ole, same ole. Based on earth, the populace is largely pacifistic. There are a few splits though, most noticibly over the Marquis issue, and the Baku.

Millitary Leadership:
Hard to gage. Some non canon work indicates that competent people with an actual military bent are now highly regarded in Starfleet (Adm Jellico), and Admiral Ross was last seen in charge. OTOH, Admiral Janeway.

Millitary:
UFP Navy:High end fleet numbers are 12,000 total ships with about 4,000 able to be fielded at once due to maintenance and other duties. Most ships seem to be older, with Excelsiors and Mirandas seeing alot of frontline work in the Dominion War. An unknown portion of this fleet will be useless as frontline ships, serving only as tenders at best (IE Oberths, Novas, Constellations). The Nebula and Venture class ships seem to be giving way to the war dedicated Sovereign and Akira class, with the Defiant class acting in a frigate role. It is unknown what will result of the Prometheus prototype.
UFP Fighter Corps: Tac Fighters largely make this up, though it is possible that Delta Fliers will augment them. Fighter craft do not appear to be numerous though.
UFP Ground Capabilities: THey have a light scouting craft seen in ST:X. They also have mines, some bio warfare, and, if accounts of level 16 are to be believed, some nice guns. All they are missing are the soldiers.


Weapons/Defense/Speed Comparrison:
Imperial:
Heavy Turbolaser Cannon: 1 Teraton - 10 Teratons (depending on Calcs)
Proton Torpedo (Capital grade): 1.65 Teratons
Concussion Missile (capital grade): 500 Gigatons
Proton Torpedo (fighter grade, Capital Ship killer): 500 Gigatons
Medium Turbolaser Cannon: 200 Gigatons
Concussion Missile (fighter grade, Capital Ship killer): 151 Gigatons
Light Turbolaser: 8 Gigatons - 50 Gigatons (depending on calcs)
Seismic Mine: 12.5 Gigatons
Heavy Bomb: 1.3 Gigatons
Heavy Missile: 700 Megatons
Heavy Proton Torpedo: 660 Megatons
Proton Torpedo (transport grade): 300 Megaton
Proton Torpedo: 200 Megatons
Diamond-Boron Missile: 200 Megatons
Concussion Missile (transport grade): 200 Megatons
Penatrator Missile: 200 Megatons, unfocused explosion after it penetrates the planet’s crust
Advanced Concussion Missile (fighter grade): 120 Megatons
Advanced Thermal Detonator: 61 Megatons
Concussion Missile (fighter grade): 60 Megatons
Energy Torpedo: 60 Megatons
Heavy Laser Cannon: 12 Megatons
Laser Cannon: 6 Megatons
Thermal Detonator: 2.6 Megatons
Point Defense Laser Cannon: 8 Kilotons
Heavy Laser Cannon (fighter grade): 2 Kilotons
Laser Cannon (fighter grade): 1 Kiloton
Split Laser Cannon: 500 Tons
Blaster Cannon: 150 Tons
Planetary Ion Cannon: No damage, knocks out electrical systems, could melt weak materials
Heavy Ion Cannon: No damage, knocks out electrical systems, could melt weak materials
Ion Cannon: No damage, knocks out electrical systems, could melt weak materials
Light Ion Cannon (fighter grade): No damage, knocks out electrical systems, could melt weak materials
(I can provide how I got these numbers upon request)

Shielding is threshold based with reserve energy storage capacity (batteries that hold energy to be disapated), and vaires per ship. The only two sets I have been avble to determine:
Imperator Star Destroyer: Shield threshold: 7^23 watts, Shield Total: 2.0064^24 joules
Executor Super Star Destroyer: Shield Threshold: 3.5^24 watts, Shields Total: 9.6^24 joules

Speed in realspace is about 4000 G accel for the ISD, about 3000 G for the Executor. Both seem to stop at about .4C - .6C for max velocity. FTL speeds are around 36.5 million C for a class 3 hyperdrive over 50 years out of date. Impstars and SSDs are that fast low end.

UFP
Phaser Array, type 12: 24 terrawatts (40 MT due to NDF)
Phaser Array, type 11+: 16.2 terrawatts (27 MT due to NDF)
Phaser Array, type 11: 12 terrawatts (20 MT due to NDF)
Phaser Array, type 10: 6 terrawatts (10 MT due to NDF)
Phaser Array, type 9: 2 terrawatts (5 MT due to NDF)
Phaser Array, type 8: 1.5 terrawatts (2.5 MT due to NDF)
Phaser Array, type 7: 750 gigawatts (1.25 MT due to NDF)
Phaser Array, type 6: 375 gigawatts (625 KT due to NDF)
Phaser Array, type 5: 187.5 megawatts (312.5 KT due to NDF)
Quantum Torpedo: 150 Megatons
Photon Torpedo, type 6 (post DW): 75 Megatons
Photon Torpedo, type 5 (standard torpedo, post DW): 67.5 Megatons
Microtorpedo: 10 Megatons

Shielding is difficult to asertain, But 3 Gigatons total for the borg seems to be a general concensus and puts a cap on the shielding of the UFP.

Speed in realspace seems to have over 1000 G (how much over is unknown), and seems to top out around .7C. FTL speeds are around 200,000 C.



So that is a general listing of both sides capabilities. Now commence the debate. Remember, we assume stability for both sides (no Vong or NR attacks, no Borg, Klingon, Romulan, 8472, Cardassian, Dominion attacks, no Marquis uprising, etc)

[Ender]

Ah Fuck, could a mod shift the size bit from size 3 to something readable?

[Howedar]

I hate when I do that!

[Master of Ossus]

Ah Fuck, could a mod shift the size bit from size 3 to something readable?

Consider it done!

[EmperorMing]

I still see the IR beating the Feds.

IR gets first shot, strategic speed of hyperdrive, tactically superior weapons and shields.

I don't see the Feds being able to react fast enough to put up a valid response to an incursion by the IR.

[nightmare]

Excellent compilation. I may very well have some use of it. Credits to Ender, of course.

[desertjedi]

Wow. I truly agree that the Remnant would kick ass in the ST universe as laid out here. Just the weapons and FTL capabilities alone would more than tip the balance for the Remnant.

[Mr Bean]

Consider it acutaly done before MoO could

[Lord Sauron-Tyranus-Vader]

Very interesting calcs.
I beleive the IR would win easily, through fire power, speed, and technological advantage.

[Scorpius]

The Remnant would win even without the Hand of Thrawn.

Hyperspace, the capability for easy planetary bombardment against unshielded targets, and a leadership ready and willing to use these advantages to their best effect against a pacifist population...

One or two planets depopulated and the UFP couldn't raise the white flag quickly enough...

You can't fight what you can't catch...

[Alyeska]

I would just like to point out that 12,000 Fed ships is not high end. High end is the people claiming 20+ ships with very little basis behind their claims. You also should take into consideration the fact that in a war time situation they are likely to hold ships out longer and push ships in refit into service sooner. So instead of a 3-1 fleet figure it could become more like 3-2.

[Isolder74]

I think that his major problem can be summed up with two words

Death Star


We got Death Star! We got Death Star! Don't you know that we've got a Death Star(fadeout)

[Lord Sauron-Tyranus-Vader]

I think that his major problem can be summed up with two words

Death Star


We got Death Star! We got Death Star! Don't you know that we've got a Death Star(fadeout)

I don't think the IR would build a DS, due to lack of resources and time. Plus, what would be the point?
The Feddies would surrender before the Imps even camethrough with their fleet.

[Alyeska]

Quantum Torpedo: 150 Megatons
Photon Torpedo, type 6 (post DW): 75 Megatons
Photon Torpedo, type 5 (standard torpedo, post DW): 67.5 Megatons
Microtorpedo: 10 Megatons

A few problems with this. The DS9 TM rates the Mark-5 as a 25 Isoton warhead. It then rates the Quantum Torpedo as a 50 Isoton warhead. Then Voyager rates the Mark-6 as a 200 Isoton warhead.

[paladin]

I see a Federation defeat. The only question is IR is fighting a all out war or a limited war. An all out war the Federation is defeated in weeks. A limited war the Federation is defeated in months.

[Isolder74]

I think that his major problem can be summed up with two words

Death Star


We got Death Star! We got Death Star! Don't you know that we've got a Death Star(fadeout)

I don't think the IR would build a DS, due to lack of resources and time. Plus, what would be the point?
The Feddies would surrender before the Imps even camethrough with their fleet.

I was rererring to his problem with using The Real Empire not the Remanant. Basically he doesn't like any scenerio that allows the Empire full strength against his beloved Federation!

[Failed Glory]

There's no question this Remmant of Imperial glory could take out the Federation fleet (1 ISD argument) and, with enough ground troops, hold the entire region.

However, would any of the Moffs be very happy about letting another have control of a vast area of newly conquered space? If I was a Moff, I would be positioning myself for this new region. It's relatively safe, full of resources, and apparently larger than their current holdings. When developed, it would add up to a claim as the Big Cheese when Palleon moves aside.

Given that, I think there is a huge potential for civil war among the Remmant for control of the Milky Way after being conquered. The Federation may not win, but I doubt the Imperial forces would be wisely employed, politically, to take this under-developed region of space.

[Ghost Rider]

I agree the New Empire would be fought over...but not by the Federation but because the Moffs wouldn't agree.

But I think we can mostly say even with the Empire at it's lowest ebb still destroys them utterly.

[Failed Glory]

I agree the New Empire would be fought over...but not by the Federation but because the Moffs wouldn't agree.

But I think we can mostly say even with the Empire at it's lowest ebb still destroys them utterly.

And the natives are rarely useless in causing upset among the rulers?

I remember no instance in history where a people's revolt from within was supported by the enemy. See Americans in Iran, Vietnam, Nicaragua, Chile, El Salvador, Honduras, and Afghanistan.

Somehow I doubt another Moff would do his own dirty work.

[Ghost Rider]

Oh yeah they would make the Romulans...Tholians...etc do their work, but it wouldn't be the Federation making so last desperate attempt at freedom.

Or it maybe but as all of them being red-shirts...but the true power play would be between the Moffs and no power currently in hold of the ST universe.

[Ender]

Quantum Torpedo: 150 Megatons
Photon Torpedo, type 6 (post DW): 75 Megatons
Photon Torpedo, type 5 (standard torpedo, post DW): 67.5 Megatons
Microtorpedo: 10 Megatons

A few problems with this. The DS9 TM rates the Mark-5 as a 25 Isoton warhead. It then rates the Quantum Torpedo as a 50 Isoton warhead. Then Voyager rates the Mark-6 as a 200 Isoton warhead.

*shrug* inconsistnecies are not my problem. I'm just going off the fact that during the DW they apparently underwent a 35% increase, and we know from Genesis that there is an 11% increase from type 5 to type 6. I would simply assume the TM is wrong.

[Ender]

I would just like to point out that 12,000 Fed ships is not high end. High end is the people claiming 20+ ships with very little basis behind their claims.

The stated numbers ae 8000 - 12000. THat would make 12,000 the high end. Or is this a terminology thing that I am not following?

You also should take into consideration the fact that in a war time situation they are likely to hold ships out longer and push ships in refit into service sooner. So instead of a 3-1 fleet figure it could become more like 3-2.

OK, So they can mmuster 8,000.