"If so powerful you are, why leave?"

[Kurgan]

I mean, why couldn't Yoda have used the trick Obi-Wan used to pull himself out of that pit in TPM? Obi had both hands, true, but he was merely a Padawan. This is Yoda! Plus Yoda is lighter than Obi-Wan...

Again, Yoda may have realized or thought he was losing the battle, simply felt the approach of troops, who did in fact appear by Palpatine as soon as Yoda fled.

Four stormtroopers, whoop-dee-doo! He slaughtered at least 10 of them in rapid succession, and Obi-Wan killed at about seven more by himself. These guys didn't look any more strongly armed than the others he pwn3d earlier. Not to mention how he killed two at once in one blow in the botched Order 66 attempt on him.

Yoda GAVE UP. Either because he was scared, he ran out of Force Mana and needed to recharge (but made no attempt to try to take out Palpy again, period, unless you count grooming Luke a little, 24 years later) or some other unknown reason (we know the real reason, because Lucas had a schedule to follow.. but this was the best he could come up with? Makes Yoda look like a quitter). As to losing the battle, I think he was doing pretty well. His only slip up was to fall down. He seemed pretty able bodied after that, considering what just happened (we know Jedi are perfectly capable of bouncing back after long falls seemingly without injury).

Obi-Wan may have also sensed he was losing the battle, but he had a last ditch plan! Have some confidence dude. Maybe the despair of the Bogan took Yoda's heart away, who knows! You gave it a good try, little muppet...

[Kurgan]

Sorry, can you explain how ESB demonstrates this? The ROTS novel supports this theory, but I wasn't sure how this movie did...

Yoda shrinking down, looking frail and breathing heavily, then walks off.

Same with AotC. In fact, after every time Yoda exerts himself heavily, he (rightfully) seems exhausted on screen.

Who the hell cares? Dooku looks exhausted after he beats up Anakin. Yet he's ready to fight like a demon a few seconds later. He's even gleeful about it! The Force is amazing, it overcomes physical weakness. Notice how Yoda is always hobbling around on that cane... until he needs to be springy. Either the Force rejuvenates you for combat, or else he's just using a ploy to collect disability checks....

I take it you're talking about Yoda lifting the X-Wing out of the swamp, right? He could afford to take a breather so soon after that one since nobody was trying to kill him at that moment! Luke acts all tired after failing, but he's not exactly a Jedi yet is he?

[Noble Ire]

Four stormtroopers, whoop-dee-doo! He slaughtered at least 10 of them in rapid succession, and Obi-Wan killed at about seven more by himself. These guys didn't look any more strongly armed than the others he pwn3d earlier. Not to mention how he killed two at once in one blow in the botched Order 66 attempt on him.

Yes, because the sum total of the Emperor's entire personal guard and the security of the entire Senate complex had to be seen in a single shot with him.

Who the hell cares? Dooku looks exhausted after he beats up Anakin. Yet he's ready to fight like a demon a few seconds later. He's even gleeful about it! The Force is amazing, it overcomes physical weakness. Notice how Yoda is always hobbling around on that cane... until he needs to be springy. Either the Force rejuvenates you for combat, or else he's just using a ploy to collect disability checks....

So are you honestly saying you believe that Jedi could fight and use uber Force powers indefinantely simply because we've never seen them collapse of exhaustion on screen? We've never seen anyone piss in the star was universe either. UNLIMITED BLADDER!!1!

[Kurgan]

If Ghostrider wants to lock this, that's his business, but I finally got a chance to respond, to wrap things up:

Four stormtroopers, whoop-dee-doo! He slaughtered at least 10 of them in rapid succession, and Obi-Wan killed at about seven more by himself. These guys didn't look any more strongly armed than the others he pwn3d earlier. Not to mention how he killed two at once in one blow in the botched Order 66 attempt on him.

Yes, because the sum total of the Emperor's entire personal guard and the security of the entire Senate complex had to be seen in a single shot with him.

I concede this point. It would have been nice had they given more emphasis to radioing for a massive manhunt for Yoda but yes, this is distinctly possible. Perhaps killing those 10 stormtroopers was an extremely difficult battle for him and he didn't think he could pull it off a second time.

So are you honestly saying you believe that Jedi could fight and use uber Force powers indefinantely simply because we've never seen them collapse of exhaustion on screen? We've never seen anyone piss in the star was universe either. UNLIMITED BLADDER!!1!

LoL! The true limits of Jedi endurance are not shown, I'm just going by what we do see in the movies. I figured if Yoda could fend off that many troopers once, why not again. I don't think he could fight literally FOREVER, no, but then neither can Palpy, right? And sure, Yoda's being distracted by all the crap Palpy would be throwing at him, but it doesn't seem impossible that he could seriously deplete the "Senate Guards" enough to delay the arrival of reinforcements and take on Palps a second time.

[Noble Ire]

I don't think he could fight literally FOREVER, no, but then neither can Palpy, right? And sure, Yoda's being distracted by all the crap Palpy would be throwing at him, but it doesn't seem impossible that he could seriously deplete the "Senate Guards" enough to delay the arrival of reinforcements and take on Palps a second time.

Its a simple matter of numbers really. Even if he could take on more storm troopers and guardsmen than a typical Jedi, which admittedly would mean a lot of them, Yoda would have to keep on fighting Palpatine, while more and more soldiers poured into the rotunda and began to fire on him. Even the most powerful Jedi isn't going to survive the combined blasterfire of several squads of elite clones and guards in a confined space, while fighting the most powerful Sith lord since Darth Bane, for long.

[Lord Pounder]

I think Geonosis and the jedi Purge proved that with enough spread out fire power even the more powerful Jedi can be overwhelmed. Yoda may last a little longer but even he would taken out in such circumstances. Staying and fighting while Palpatine recovered and called in more Troopers would have been a useless gesture of defiance.

[Cykeisme]

It's also worth nothing that Yoda was not in possession of his lightsaber at the time. That may have made it a bit more difficult to deal with blaster fire.

[Kurgan]

Its a simple matter of numbers really. Even if he could take on more storm troopers and guardsmen than a typical Jedi, which admittedly would mean a lot of them, Yoda would have to keep on fighting Palpatine, while more and more soldiers poured into the rotunda and began to fire on him. Even the most powerful Jedi isn't going to survive the combined blasterfire of several squads of elite clones and guards in a confined space, while fighting the most powerful Sith lord since Darth Bane, for long.

I wouldn't put too much stock into the Senate Guards, if they are anything like Palpatine's personal guards, which Yoda easily dispatched with a single force push, and appeared to be armed only with force pikes ("spears"). The "elite clones" you speak of I assume were no more elite than the ones that Anakin lead into the Jedi Temple (why would we assume these guys were anything less than the best, after all?). Yoda massacred them quite easily it seemed. They lack the element of surprise during Order 66, so the only different factor is Yoda's possibly getting tired eventually (before Palpatine does). And even if he "goes down" under the clone onslaught, his only goal is to kill Palpatine, so if he does that, he's won. The confined space also works against the clones as they have to be able to assemble to take aim at our little green muppet (and such that they don't risk hitting Palpatine or each other). The fact that there are all the Senate pods around means Yoda can use them for cover or as weapons against the clones as well. I don't know if Darth Bane's strength has ever been quantified, but in any case, I don't think that really matters too much, since we've seen that Yoda can hold his own against Palpatine, and even surprise him in combat. Yoda figured that Obi-Wan was not powerful enough to face him, but went himself. Yoda also doubts Palpatine's power when he blocks the Sith Lord's retreat.

As far as Yoda losing his lightsaber, that's true. Though one would think he could locate it with the Force, even if he doesn't carry a spare with him like Palpatine does. Maybe not though... forcing him to make a quick trip to the Jedi Temple to retrieve another one instead. We've only seen Vader able to block blaster shots with his hand. Yoda could pull away a clone rifle or two and use it, and we don't know if Palpy is capable of reflecting blaster fire with his hands either.

I guess I missed it, but what happened to Palpy's saber? We never see or hear of it again throughout the rest of the trilogy, and in the final part of the battle it's suddenly gone.

My brother concocted a theory that Yoda's cloak is actually the main source of his power (sort of like a wizard's staff in LOTR). After having lost it, he was forced to retreat.

[Noble Ire]

Kurgan, you're not getting it.
Palpatine and Yoda are clearly on fairly even power levels, and the ROTS novelization even indicates that Palpatine is more powerful (the canonical validity of that is under debate, even though I don't see it as a contradiction with on-screen material.) Now, in the fight as it went, they were battling each other to a near standstill until the final confrontation. If the battle had continued, Yoda would still be facing Palpatine, but he would now have to worry about dozens of soldiers with blasters actively trying to kill him. Regardless of their ability (and yes, guardsmen have blasters hidden beneath their robes, as noted in the VD books) this reinforcement would inevitably push the engagement in Palpatine's favor.

I guess I missed it, but what happened to Palpy's saber? We never see or hear of it again throughout the rest of the trilogy, and in the final part of the battle it's suddenly gone.

Why would we see it again? He never really fights anyone again, and in ROTJ he wants to torture Luke, not kill him immediately.

[Zwinmar]

seems to me Palpy and Yoda are roughly the same in power, though yoda more in defensive, vise Palp in offensive.

What i dont get though, whe never see Mace die, he got flung out the window...and like one said before, weve seen Jedi fall long distances

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

What i dont get though, whe never see Mace die, he got flung out the window...and like one said before, weve seen Jedi fall long distances

Have we ever seen a Jedi survive a fall over half a kilometer onto pavement, after being attacked by the full-power lightning of a Sith Lord, an attack so powerful that it caused the Jedi's skeleton to glow blue-white through the flesh for a few seconds?

In fact, I'm fairly certain we did see Mace die. The novel heavily implies that it was the lightning that killed him, and there's no contradiction at all on screen that I can think of.

[Kurgan]

Kurgan, you're not getting it.
Palpatine and Yoda are clearly on fairly even power levels, and the ROTS novelization even indicates that Palpatine is more powerful (the canonical validity of that is under debate, even though I don't see it as a contradiction with on-screen material.) Now, in the fight as it went, they were battling each other to a near standstill until the final confrontation. If the battle had continued, Yoda would still be facing Palpatine, but he would now have to worry about dozens of soldiers with blasters actively trying to kill him. Regardless of their ability (and yes, guardsmen have blasters hidden beneath their robes, as noted in the VD books) this reinforcement would inevitably push the engagement in Palpatine's favor.

Perhaps, but not much so, as I pointed out, with the shown ineffectiveness of Stormtroopers trying to kill Yoda (or, even Obi-Wan, for another canonical example of a Jedi who was fighting them after the element of surprise of Order 66 had worn off). It's been about 8 months since I read the VD, so I don't recall... were these blasters the same clumsy ceremonial rifles carried by the (blue-clad) Senate guardsmen? I still contend that if a dozen elite troopers couldn't kill or even wound Yoda with their carbines, then these guys shouldn't have it any easier. Logically, yes, they would be in Palpatine's favor, but would not ensure victory, given their previously demonstrated ineffectiveness. They would probably be as much a danger to their master and each other as they were to Yoda, maybe even moreso.

Why would we see it again? He never really fights anyone again, and in ROTJ he wants to torture Luke, not kill him immediately.

In ROTJ he explicitly states "I am unarmed" and "I am defensless." Now, given his penchant for lying, we need not take his word at face value, and perhaps he had no time to slip it out of his sleeve when Vader was crushing his spine and tossing him over the side... I just wonder what happened to it during his fight with Yoda. It is just suddenly gone. Did he drop it on the Senate floor? Slip it back into his pocket so he could go after Yoda two fisted? Was something left on the cutting room floor? If in fact he LOST it, then this could not be used as an advantage in Palpatine's favor (it was being argued that Yoda's loss of his lightsaber forced him to retreat, but if Palpy had lost his saber as well, then they are again on equal footing).

There's no reason to assume Palpy couldn't have had another lightsaber built or recovered another spare in the decades after his proclaiming himself Emperor, except laziness. If he "knew" that Vader planned to betray him all along, it seems even more stupidly overconfident on his part not to do so, but I further digress.

[Noble Ire]

Perhaps, but not much so, as I pointed out, with the shown ineffectiveness of Stormtroopers trying to kill Yoda (or, even Obi-Wan, for another canonical example of a Jedi who was fighting them after the element of surprise of Order 66 had worn off). It's been about 8 months since I read the VD, so I don't recall... were these blasters the same clumsy ceremonial rifles carried by the (blue-clad) Senate guardsmen? I still contend that if a dozen elite troopers couldn't kill or even wound Yoda with their carbines, then these guys shouldn't have it any easier. Logically, yes, they would be in Palpatine's favor, but would not ensure victory, given their previously demonstrated ineffectiveness. They would probably be as much a danger to their master and each other as they were to Yoda, maybe even moreso.

It is obvious I cannot convince you, so I won't attempt to anymore, since this can never be proven one way or another. However, just keep in mind, virtually any jedi is a match for a small number of ground troopers, more depending on their armament and the skill of the Jedi. However, there is a limit to the number of blasts a Jedi can avoid. Hundreds of Jedi died on Geonosis, many of them masters, because they were surrounded and vastly outnumbered. Fire volume did them in.

[Kurgan]

What i dont get though, whe never see Mace die, he got flung out the window...and like one said before, weve seen Jedi fall long distances

Have we ever seen a Jedi survive a fall over half a kilometer onto pavement, after being attacked by the full-power lightning of a Sith Lord, an attack so powerful that it caused the Jedi's skeleton to glow blue-white through the flesh for a few seconds?

In fact, I'm fairly certain we did see Mace die. The novel heavily implies that it was the lightning that killed him, and there's no contradiction at all on screen that I can think of.

No, but we have seen Jedi survive lightning hits in the past (Anakin) and heavy barrages of deadly intensity (Luke). Vader dies shortly after taking his barrage, but most agree that this was due to damage done to his life support systems, hastened by Luke removing his helmet.

Seperately we've also seen Jedi survive long falls (Mace Windu into the arena, Obi-Wan onto a platform on Naboo, Anakin onto a speeding vehicle after a long drop through the air at high altitude), Luke falling down the shaft on Bespin, etc. Mace appeared to still be alive as he was blown out the window to me (he was still screaming and flailing his limbs about), but we're told officially that he died. Presumably the cause of death was the fall itself in his weakened state not being able to grasp onto a passing vehicle like Anakin did, or being struck by oncoming traffic due again to his state of pain and disorientation. Otherwise both conditions (being zapped and falling) are fully survivable for a Jedi, especially one of Windu's calibur.

Now you're saying the novel has him expire as soon as he passes from our view, due to the lightning? I read the novel as well but I don't recall that detail, but it would be interesting to see the implication quoted.

As far as I'm concerned, he could have survived, but we're told he didn't, so that's that. I'm sure Palpatine would have had someone verify that Windu was in fact a corpse after the fact, if there was some doubt.

[Kurgan]

Perhaps, but not much so, as I pointed out, with the shown ineffectiveness of Stormtroopers trying to kill Yoda (or, even Obi-Wan, for another canonical example of a Jedi who was fighting them after the element of surprise of Order 66 had worn off). It's been about 8 months since I read the VD, so I don't recall... were these blasters the same clumsy ceremonial rifles carried by the (blue-clad) Senate guardsmen? I still contend that if a dozen elite troopers couldn't kill or even wound Yoda with their carbines, then these guys shouldn't have it any easier. Logically, yes, they would be in Palpatine's favor, but would not ensure victory, given their previously demonstrated ineffectiveness. They would probably be as much a danger to their master and each other as they were to Yoda, maybe even moreso.

It is obvious I cannot convince you, so I won't attempt to anymore, since this can never be proven one way or another. However, just keep in mind, virtually any jedi is a match for a small number of ground troopers, more depending on their armament and the skill of the Jedi. However, there is a limit to the number of blasts a Jedi can avoid. Hundreds of Jedi died on Geonosis, many of them masters, because they were surrounded and vastly outnumbered. Fire volume did them in.

Not to overemphasize what I said before or to sound like a broken record, but again, I'd say I'm just basing this on what we've seen before. The Clone Wars series would have us believe a single Jedi Master is indeed capable of taking on an army and emerging unscathed, but this is thwarted by Geonosis in the G-canon (I agree with you there). Still, it's been argued that the Jedi who died on Geonosis had certain disadvantages that helped contribute to their high level of losses, such as the presence of Padawans and Jedi not accustomed to combat (hastily assembled). They may also have gotten in each other's way. The original plan seemed not to call for an all out-onslaught against an army of droids, but a show of force (all that saber rattling at the start) that would force the release of the prisoner(s) with minimal fighting if at all. Granted, the survivers were quickly dispatched to leader armies of clones at the approaching army as the Seperatist leaders retreated, but that seems to have been something of an "on-the-fly" plan, correct me if I'm wrong.

Anyway, my point was that we've seen Yoda take on a large group of troopers and win. We've seen Obi-Wan do the same, with a somewhat smaller group. We know that a single squad of troopers or even a single person with a single blaster (Jango Fett) can kill a Jedi under the right circumstances. But we also know that this need not be the guarenteed outcome. Perhaps Yoda was scared, demoralized, etc. That seems likely. To me it showed that his character had a moment of cowardice and ran. It makes him interesting, certainly, as he's not a perfect warrior strategist with unshakable courage. Had he taken a stand "to the death" I imagine he could have taken out Palpatine, but Lucas, for story purposes had to find a way to have him seperate himself from the fight. Several fans, myself included were not particularly satisifed with Lucas's choice of portraying that inevitability (once he decided that they would fight one another), but it's all we've got for canon.

In any case, you gave it a good try, kudos.

[Noble Ire]

The Clone Wars series would have us believe a single Jedi Master is indeed capable of taking on an army and emerging unscathed,

Not that I want to be pulled in again, but just for the record, the CW cartoons are canonically exaggerations and anti-Imperial propoganda (as noted on the OS.)

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

Now you're saying the novel has him expire as soon as he passes from our view, due to the lightning? I read the novel as well but I don't recall that detail, but it would be interesting to see the implication quoted.

Before he could follow through on his stroke, a sudden arc of blue plasma sheared through his wrist and his hand tumbled away with his lightsaber still in it and Palpatine roared back to his feet and lightning speared from the Sith Lord's hands and without his blade to catch it, the power of Palpatine's hate struck hum full-on.

He had been so intent on Palpatine's shatterpoint that he'd never thought to look for Anakin's.

Dark lightning blasted away his universe.

He fell forever.

Emphasis mine.

This implies that it is the lightning that kills him, "blasts away his universe." Him "falling forever" simply makes it more clear that he neither survived the fall nor was killed by it; he was dead before he hit the ground.

[Kurgan]

Fine. You win!

I'm not going to bother arguing that he may simply have gone unconscious from the attack since it sounds like nitpicking.