Liberalism.

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Max
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Liberalism.

Post by Max »

I may have put this in the wrong thread, feel free to move it.

Recently I was asked a few questions, and I thought it would be interesting to see how people here respond, since I get the feeling that this board has mainly left leaning members.
1. Why do people harbor so many aggressive feelings towards President Bush? Whenever things happen, it seems like the public in general will do a hurdle over other people who may have been the ones who screwed up something and blame him directly.

2. How come most Hollywood and entertainment media are primarily left-wing? How did that start and why does it continue?

3. I read an article that said Liberalism mainly supports and exercises the freedom of religion. This sounds respectable and it takes the American constitution in a more literal sense like it should be, but why always attack Christians? Doesn't that tie a knot in the very concept they're trying to stand up for?

4. Why are Liberals and Conservatives constantly at one another? I know that Conservatism represents a much older and traditional mentality of America while Liberalism represents a new refined concept, but I've watched alot of debates and the fights always ALWAYS tend to start whenever someone Liberal affiliated says something offensive that isn't true and it upsets a Conservative. What's the point in blurting things like that? Several even admit to "pushing political buttons" just for the fun of it. What's the point?
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Nephtys
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Post by Nephtys »

1. Preisdent Bush has in many documented cases broken the law, authorized illegal wiretaps on Americans using intelligence services whose charter FORBIDS them from spying on Americans, has lead the country to a War that may last for another decade, has constantly refused to speak face to face with the media, refuses to divulge any information and denies any wrongdoing, has engaged in constant fearmongering for political gain and so on. There's plenty more.

2. I think that's pretty much a myth or slight perception issue. The 'arts' as they're called have usually been the realm of more liberal thinkers in the olden days. Anything that's left is probably a carryover.

3. The problem is some Christian groups in America (primarilly some aggressive Evangelicals) have tried to push their agenda to get their religion recognized as somehow more important. Let's see.. instead of 'Happy holidays', they want to push 'Merry Christmas' as the only thing businesses or the government can say. These groups wish to put the Ten Commandments, judeochristian specific icons on courthouses. They want to teach Intelligent Design, a scientifically unsound concept that is an attempt to sneak their religion into public schools. ID for example, is based on a 'Creator', which just happens to have the skillset and motivations of the Judeochristian God. It's not an attack on Christianity. It's an attack of Fundamental Christian Hedgemony.

4. The problem nowadays is that Conservatives have changed. The 'fiscal responsability' part of it is out the window, with increased spending with decreased taxes. There is no free lunch, so economic sense clearly has to be jettisoned. As opposing interests, of course they'd be against each other. The problem is, some people who are CRAZY say things (Liberals want America to lose the war! Conservatives want to put us all into slave labor camps!), but sometimes what people say are part of political strategies, or weak defenses. The problem with your argument on how the arguments start? A lot of times, what the liberal speaker says IS true. And has multiple verifiable sources or data supporting it. The other just denies it, which is now standard practice for the administration.

It's like this.
Demo: You took the cookie from my lunchbag. There's the security camera footage. Then you peeped into the showers without permission!
Repub: Not true, you anti-american commie mutant!
Demo: You... jerk! *Sobs at impotence*


Basically... you need to be open and not look at where people are coming from, but rather what is really being done in terms of context and factual support.
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Dalton
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Post by Dalton »

Although I don't consider myself a liberal, I definitely do lean to the left regarding sociopolitical matters.

1. Bush is dishonest and untrustworthy, at least in my opinion. I think Nephtys summed it up best. However, I do have to give him some respect for both taking unsolicited questions from an un-vetted audience and taking responsibility for pre-war intelligence failures.

2. A good question. Although I think it's completely overexaggerated, I believe it's because of a more artistic mentality; I've noticed that creative people like artists, painters, actors and the like tend to be more left-wing. For example, almost everyone that I know in the Graphics department here are liberals, with two, maybe three exceptions. Since movies fall along the same lines, this would make a lot more filmmakers and actors trend to the left. I don't necessarily agree with that conclusion, however; I just think they tend to be given a lot more scrutiny by the big Conservative media outlets like Fox News Channel.

3. The answer to this one is perhaps clearer; the Christians represent a religious supermajority in this country - a Newsweek poll put it at 80%. I've also noticed that the far-right Christians seem to have a hell of a lot of influence in this government, which would present a big juicy target for ACLU types.

4. The point is publicity, at least from what I can tell. Since the Democrats are politically impotent, the best they can do is raise a ruckus and hope somebody listens. Although I'm not entirely convinced that it's always because of a Liberal "falsehood"; some Conservatives like Ann Coulter and Bill O'Reilly seem to attack Liberals just because they are Liberals. They are the latest in a group of people who have demonized the Liberals and turned the word itself into an insult, and I think the Liberals are just spoiling for fights so they can get a little publicity.
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Re: Liberalism.

Post by Spacebeard »

3. I read an article that said Liberalism mainly supports and exercises the freedom of religion. This sounds respectable and it takes the American constitution in a more literal sense like it should be, but why always attack Christians? Doesn't that tie a knot in the very concept they're trying to stand up for?
The notion that anyone is "attacking Christianity" is a myth. In reality, defenders of religious freedom (who are not always liberals) are defending it from attack by fundamentalist groups looking to force their beliefs into laws and schools. Since the majority of Americans are Christians, the most powerful fundamentalist groups are also Christian. If there were, for example, politically powerful Hindu fundamentalist groups trying to ban the production of beef, then advocates of religious freedom would come into conflict with them as well, and would be tarred as "attacking Hinduism" instead.
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Re: Liberalism.

Post by Jalinth »

To reply

1)Presidents get the credit for things they can't necessarily control (economy), they also get the blame for the same things. Specifically for Bush, he has taken a number of steps that "set the tone" for the rest of the Administration. Also, exactly what did person say Bush was being wrongfully blamed for? He isn't Satan incarnate, but he has caused or aggregated some of the current problems.

2 Hollywood is leftwing mostly because of its artistic bent. Ask around at most engineering or accounting firms. Most tend to be conservative in outlook. Each career draws different types of personalities. Also , I find that Hollywood (or most artists to be honest) waxing on about the problem de jour rather embarrasing. Too many see the world through rose coloured glasses and have a bad tendency to think of the West as being "evil" without asking who is the immediate cause of the problems (often the local leaders)

3 The term liberalism has become corrupted over the years (and so has conservatism). You need to go back to the routes where you had a state supported church - and freedom of religion stemmed out of this and also out of state supported (or acquised) ethnic pogroms (just christian vs christian - where the people were at least considered human). Same thing with conservatism. If you think of conservatism as supporting less government generally (libertarianism), Bush's version resembles this as much as your socialistic European governments - big government is big government. If you think of conservatism as being the opposite of reactionary,same thing. Bush is more a "radical" than most of his opponents.

4 The two parties fight because each represents a certain power base.
Also, each has its own factions. And many are starting to tear at each other (liberatarianism doesn't fit nicely into any party these days, same thing with fiscal conservatives). Also, at least a certain chunk of republicans these days are in it for the power (like my view of the Canadian Liberal party. They have a segment that are in it for the power that being a member of "Natural Ruling Party" brings. Leeches)

Also, for a healthy society in my view, you need both conservatives and liberals. Liberals to encourage change, conservatives to keep change in check. Too much dominance of either is unhealthy.
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Post by lPeregrine »

1) In addition to what's been said so far, Bush is a so-called conservative that considers "conservative" to mean "give the government more authority to regulate what happens in your bedroom". So the supposed (and worthy) goal of reducing government size/inefficiency/taxes becomes a joke. A so-called conservative has pushed the national debt to insane size.

And don't say it's not Bush's fault. His party controls two of the three branches of the government, and the president plays a major role (if not the most important) in shaping his party's policy.

2) The more important question is, who cares?

3) Two reasons:

3a) The massive persecution issues the religious right has, where "we can't force everyone to live by our moral standards whether they want to or not" becomes "OMG YOURE PERSECUTING ME!!!".

3b) Because christians make up a majority of the country. So when there's a case of a religion trying to defy freedom of religion, 95% of the time it's christianity that's the religion involved.

4) Because that's how our political system works. It's an equal problem on both sides, civil debate hasn't been a part of american politics for a long time.
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Re: Liberalism.

Post by Darth Wong »

1. Why do people harbor so many aggressive feelings towards President Bush? Whenever things happen, it seems like the public in general will do a hurdle over other people who may have been the ones who screwed up something and blame him directly.
Perhaps because he's a theocratic asshole, a former DUI, and a spoiled rich brat who runs the country the way a popular bully runs a high school?
2. How come most Hollywood and entertainment media are primarily left-wing? How did that start and why does it continue?
Does the fact that this claim is bullshit have any bearing on the question?
3. I read an article that said Liberalism mainly supports and exercises the freedom of religion. This sounds respectable and it takes the American constitution in a more literal sense like it should be, but why always attack Christians? Doesn't that tie a knot in the very concept they're trying to stand up for?
Because Christians are always trying to eliminate everyone else's religious freedom.
4. Why are Liberals and Conservatives constantly at one another? I know that Conservatism represents a much older and traditional mentality of America while Liberalism represents a new refined concept, but I've watched alot of debates and the fights always ALWAYS tend to start whenever someone Liberal affiliated says something offensive that isn't true and it upsets a Conservative. What's the point in blurting things like that? Several even admit to "pushing political buttons" just for the fun of it. What's the point?
So it's Liberals' fault that Conservatives are easily offended? There are plenty of things that a Liberal can say which will offend a Conservative but which happen to be true, such as "America was not founded on Christian principles" or "Prostitution is not necessarily immoral" or "The Biblical God is a baby-killing terrorist." Sure, one could say that you shouldn't make waves, but isn't there a real problem when the truth makes waves?

Why should the truth make waves unless we're swimming in a sea of bullshit?
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Re: Liberalism.

Post by Ender »

mplsjocc wrote:1. Why do people harbor so many aggressive feelings towards President Bush? Whenever things happen, it seems like the public in general will do a hurdle over other people who may have been the ones who screwed up something and blame him directly.
To put it simply "The Buck Stops Here". As President he ultimately bear responsibility for all of the actions of the government, for good or ill. While this administration has gone out of itw way to avoid any responsibility or culpability (a fact even its most ardent supporters acknowledge), that does not change the fact that George W. Bush, like every president back to George Washington, is still the man who must accept responsibility in the end. Just as the Captainof a ship will take the blame for running a ship aground instead of the navigator, so must the President accept responsibility for the government. The responsibility for how the power of that office is used is the price of weilding it.
2. How come most Hollywood and entertainment media are primarily left-wing? How did that start and why does it continue?
This comes down to a flawed premise - that just because one disagrees with some o the values of conservatism, they must disagree with all of them and thus be a liberal. That is patently false. Art is based off self expression, and self expression requires individual freedom. This obviously runs counter to the currently popular subset of conservative thinking that is trying to legaly enact its standards on the whole group (eg laws banning gay marriage, academic standards teaching religious beliefs in science class) and is thus oppossed. The simplistic black and white thinking that because they reject one specific subset of extreme social conservatism, they must reject all forms and philophies of it and thus be ultra liberal. So ultimatley it comes down to the fact that they are primarily left wing unless you choose to narowly and specifically define what it is to not be left wing.
3. I read an article that said Liberalism mainly supports and exercises the freedom of religion. This sounds respectable and it takes the American constitution in a more literal sense like it should be, but why always attack Christians? Doesn't that tie a knot in the very concept they're trying to stand up for?
Why is following the law a more literal interpration then it should be? Again, you are starting from a flawed premise. Futher, how are christians under attack? Are churches being blown up? No, that's abortion clinics. Are they having swasticas painted on them? No, thats synagogues. Are they being burnt down? No, that's mosques. The simple fact is that Christianity is in fact not under attack. What is happening is that Christianity is simply losing its ability to maintain a hegemony over life in America, and extremists are lashing out. To envision it, think of a small child's birthday party and a cake. The child (christianity) is spoiled and wants to have it all. However, the grownups (politicians) recognize that the other children must also have fair slices, and are trying to divide the cake equally between it and the other children (other religions). Naturally, the brat (extremist evangicals) throws a fit over it (see any of Robertson's, Dobson's, or Falwell's rants). It simply a case of those having pow being afraid of losing it.
4. Why are Liberals and Conservatives constantly at one another? I know that Conservatism represents a much older and traditional mentality of America while Liberalism represents a new refined concept, but I've watched alot of debates and the fights always ALWAYS tend to start whenever someone Liberal affiliated says something offensive that isn't true and it upsets a Conservative. What's the point in blurting things like that? Several even admit to "pushing political buttons" just for the fun of it. What's the point?
Again, a flawed premise. The ideas of liberalism trace back to the anchient greeks, as do those of conservatism. There is nothing new or tradtional about either. (In fact, a true traditional American mentality is armed rebellion against imperialists named George) Nor do the debates start when a liberal is intentionally dishonest, I would point out that the clear bias and flawed premise of these questions are a mark of intellectual dishonesty on the questioner's part. As for pushing buttons, I can readily point ot as man on both sides who do this. The answer for that is simple - to obscure the actual issue. While Terry Prachet co-opted the phrase for his humorous books, the idea of "When there are 2 sides to an issue, quickly turn it into 20" has great merit to a dedicated politician. Most people are moderates - fiscially conservative, socially liberal, whose main concern in the day is not "Merry Christmas vs Happy Holidays" or "Save the spotted owl", but instead "remember to get milk and pick up the kids from soccer practice". By putting windbags from both sides on the air, the politicians can bamboozle the populace into ingoring what they are doing. It is unfortunatly successful too, look at the presidential elections - the debates, rather then being an open source for the discussion of ideas so that a well educated populace can select the politician whose plans will best serve the country and remedy problems, are scheduled late in the process when most people have already decided who they will vote for, and are under such strict rules that they are not even debates, simply gloified speeches where the canidates present soundbites to try to win over the last undecided voters.
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Post by Greymalkin »

Wow, I think these questions have been answered and then some, but I would like to add a few general thoughts -

First, I don't think President Bush has been treated any worse than any other President. Further I get rather annoyed when I hear lines like: "Oh, those mean liberals, they just attack, and attack," or "President Bush is the most maligned/ slandered/ whatever President ever..." Besides being simply not true, they ignore the possibility that Bush actually deserves the criticism.

Second, while the media and the art world may be largely left in alignment, I feel that the complaints against the media are themselves a product of perceptions. It seems to me (and feel free to correct this) that some conservatives would rather attack the media for being biased when unflattering things are said or reported, rather than refuting the statements (too bad the real word doesn't act more like these boards...).

Third, liberals do not always attack Christians, that is patently untrue and ridiculous. Another thing, describing ones opponents or their actions as always or never is generally a fallacy and tends to over simplify a situation.

Lastly, conservatives and liberals (and all the opinions and beliefs associated with those terms) have very different, and frequently opposite, beliefs, as such they tend to but heads, allot. Its just how the discussion happens. I personally feel this is a good thing, at least when people are willing to have an honest discussion.
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Post by wilfulton »

1. I think Ender beat me to it, but Harry Truman had a sign on his desk saying "the buck stops here." In any bureacratic agency (i.e. the US government) there is a strong tendency to say, "Well, I did my part, it must be his fault!" I get this every day at work. It's called passing the buck.

2. Good news sells poorly and moral stories tend to be rather dull. If it involves all that is right with the world, people are less interested. If it involves all that is wrong, they'll turn their pockets out for it. The left wing style of the media has been maintained because that's what people are buying.

3. liberal comes from the latin, liber meaning to set free. Of course a common thread with religion is that it likes to point out ways in which everyone else is fucked up. I just watched Journey toward Creation, the other night, and there is a bonus section on the DVD where the narrator goes to say what religions might fit in with the creation of the universe. Basically, animism, judaism, islam, and mormonism are all out, in no uncertain terms, while (he doesn't exactly say, but strongly hints) "christianity" is it. Now if that ain't dick waving, I don't know what is.

4. According to a conservative, we need conformists, not revisionists. Accroding to a liberal, the world is changing and we need to change with it or go the way of the dodo. People get upset and people get defensive when their beliefs are challenged. The two sides, since they pretty much directly challenge the other by saying the other's way of looking at things is fucked up, results in a lose-lose situation, as far as peaceful resolutions are concerned.
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Post by wolveraptor »

How can anyone maintain the delusion that the media is liberal? On the one hand, NPR might be seen as liberal. On the other hand, Fox news, Clear Channel, Laura Ingraham, Dr. Laura, Rush Limbaugh, Hugh Hewitt, Ann Coulter, Newsmax, G. Gordon Liddy, Michael Reagan, Michael Savage, The New York Post, Sinclair Broadcast Group, David Horowitz, Rupert Murdoch, PAX, and MSNBC's Joe Scarborough might be seen as conservative. I challenge anyone to name as many democratic media outlets.
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Post by Lagmonster »

Anyone who thinks Hollywood is ultra-liberal should pay attention to how much traditional conservative Christian morality gets lauded in and squeezed into TV and movies. Oh, sure, the actors themselves are often hedonist bleeding hearts and there are always some directors who want to shock and defy conservative culture, but they are evenly balanced out against people like Mel Gibson.
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Post by Frank Hipper »

1. Why do people harbor so many aggressive feelings towards President Bush? Whenever things happen, it seems like the public in general will do a hurdle over other people who may have been the ones who screwed up something and blame him directly.
The one at the top ALWAYS recives the most blame, it's called responsibility.
Becoming president means shouldering a sometimes unfair amount of responsibility for situations that may not be directly his fault, but it goes with the territory, always has.

However, when so many actions you take display GROSS incompetence (Iraq, Where's Osama, dismal disaster preparedness despite the bill of goods sold post Sept. 11th), corruption (the cronyism in FEMA), and contempt of the constitution (PATRIOT), he's earned an awful lot of that blame.
2. How come most Hollywood and entertainment media are primarily left-wing? How did that start and why does it continue?
Maybe the right wing in general isn't very artistic? I mean, "conservative" by definition doesn't exactly ooze "creativity", now, does it.
3. I read an article that said Liberalism mainly supports and exercises the freedom of religion. This sounds respectable and it takes the American constitution in a more literal sense like it should be, but why always attack Christians? Doesn't that tie a knot in the very concept they're trying to stand up for?
Not when these so-called "attacks" are in response to bigotry and Christian Supremicists demanding special privileges.
Christian Supremacy coinciding with "Freedom of Religion" is something of an oxymoron, anyway.
4. Why are Liberals and Conservatives constantly at one another? I know that Conservatism represents a much older and traditional mentality of America...
How would you "know" that? Not by reading many legal documents or letters expressing the thoughts of the Founding Fathers.
...while Liberalism represents a new refined concept, but I've watched alot of debates and the fights always ALWAYS tend to start whenever someone Liberal affiliated says something offensive that isn't true and it upsets a Conservative. What's the point in blurting things like that? Several even admit to "pushing political buttons" just for the fun of it. What's the point?
Offensive?
Not true?
Some examples would be very helpful.
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