A philosophical question.

[Knife]

You are a teacher, and have assigned an essay to your students. The question goes like this: One of your students (student A) is incredibly bright, he knows everything about the subject like the back of his hand, can recite stuff about it from almost any source, etc. etc. etc. The day the essay is due, you see him 45 minutes before class starting his essay. When he hands it in it's obvious he has done no special work or research for it and was, in fact, quite lazy about the whole thing, but because of what he already knows it has everything that you expected from the assignment, and more. A second student (student B,) however, is slow. He means well, he does the work, but he just doesn't quite get it. He gives you a barely par essay rife with minor problems, but it's obvious he spent a considerable amount of time researching it and put extra-effort into it, probably more than anyone else in the class.

And so the question: You mut give one of these two students a better grade, and one a lower grade. Who do you give the better grade to, and why?

If he knows the subject, he/she knows the subject. Whats the point in grading the subject if you aren't going to 'grade the subject'. I think that is the problem with schools at this day and age. To worried about the 'self esteem' of a student and not worried enough about the knowledge of the subject.

If the kid had enough balls to 'bullshit' his way through, then soon enough he'll get smacked down. If he knows what you wnat to teach, he's good enought to pass your course. If you are allowed to teach 'humbleness 101' then you can smack him down, if not, that lesson is bound to be taught to him soon enough.

[RedImperator]

To worried about the 'self esteem' of a student and not worried enough about the knowledge of the subject.

A caveat here: there are times when you give a kid a boost because you don't want him to get so discouraged he just quits. One math teacher I know at another school in the district stopped giving grades to kids who scored below some abysmally low number on the exam--I think it's something like 40%. Instead, she just wrote "See me" on them, talked to them individually (they all had home life bullshit going on that was wrecking their school performance), and tutored them after school. Result: out of six students, two scored in the mid 80's on the next exam.

The other four failed. Sometimes there's just not enough you can do.

[Darth Wong]

There are certain kids who just don't give a shit about school from an early age, usually because of the way they're being raised at home. I suspect a lot of teachers try to heroically "save" these kids, but to be brutally honest, there's a sizable group which is just headed nowhere and might as well be ejected from the school system so they can't infect others with their brand of anti-educational welfare bum psychology.

These useless future welfare bums and criminals only consume teacher time, resources, and spirit. Remove them and everyone else, from teachers to administrators to students, will do better. Make a special school called "Future Losers Academy" where they can learn to at least be disciplined in manual labour jobs.

[Qwerty 42]

There are certain kids who just don't give a shit about school from an early age, usually because of the way they're being raised at home. I suspect a lot of teachers try to heroically "save" these kids, but to be brutally honest, there's a sizable group which is just headed nowhere and might as well be ejected from the school system so they can't infect others with their brand of anti-educational welfare bum psychology.

These useless future welfare bums and criminals only consume teacher time, resources, and spirit. Remove them and everyone else, from teachers to administrators to students, will do better. Make a special school called "Future Losers Academy" where they can learn to at least be disciplined in manual labour jobs.

It's a bit more difficult to decide where to draw the line. I was an absolute jerk until about when I turned twelve, I'm lucky I had teachers stick around to help me. Conceptually you're absolutely right, and perhaps it's just a romantic notion, but it's impossible to determine when someone is truly gone. Just ask Anakin Skywalker.

[RedImperator]

There are certain kids who just don't give a shit about school from an early age, usually because of the way they're being raised at home. I suspect a lot of teachers try to heroically "save" these kids, but to be brutally honest, there's a sizable group which is just headed nowhere and might as well be ejected from the school system so they can't infect others with their brand of anti-educational welfare bum psychology.

Problem is, you can't tell just by looking which ones are the bums and who are just trying to deal with a shitty home life, or an undiagnosed learning disability, or thinks he's stupid after years of being treated as such by the system, or has given up on school because he's had nothing but pointless bullshit in class since the third grade.

Fortunately, the worst of them will usually drop out on their own once they're legally allowed to, between ninth and tenth grade. The ones that are left either want to be there or have parents who are on top of things enough to keep them there. Unfortunately, we lose a lot of good kids, or potentially goods kids, at the same time. There's basically a 50% dropoff rate in enrollment between ninth and tenth grade in urban schools. They can't all be bums.

[Skelron]

There is no dilemia...

Student A.) Gets the better marks, and a see me note. Student B gets the lesser grade and a See me Note.

Student A.)'s See me session consists of a whole extra heap of work. Something anything that does challange them. School is about educating the Person after all. If it's Senior School they also get a detention. Writing the essay during School hours is sloopy and stupid. I don't care if they 'Exceeded' the criteria. It showed a lazy approach to work, and a poor work ethic.

Student B.) Is told I am pleased by the amount of effort they have put into it, to keep up the good work. I lay it on thick, I make sure the Student knows I am pleased that they made the effort. Again if it's a Senior school situation, the Parents evening is used to great effect. I make sure to tell their parents that I have seen a marked improvment in their work etc.

The Grades are Grades and in the end you have to give what is deserved. The rest is about the attitude, and you can reward the attitude in ways outside of a mark on a piece of paper.

[Keevan_Colton]

Detention seems way OTT.

[Skelron]

Detention seems way OTT.

Possibly, I suppose yes it might be OTT. depending on the type of detention. When I said that I was thinking only of a Lunchtime Detention not one the far harsher saturday or after school detentions.

Basically more of a half hour of free time during school hours lost. (Half an hour to eat lunch/get in the que half an hour sitting in a room being bored)

[Keevan_Colton]

What sense does that make?
Detention for doing the work too quickly, or is it just detention for getting seen doing the work too quickly?

[Skelron]

For coming into school with the work still undone. At home it may have taken them exactly the same amount of time, but thats largely irrelevent. It's a basic principle homework is to be done at Home. If you like the time it is actually ment to be done by is when the school bell goes at the start of the day.

For showing a poor attitude and work Ethic as previously mentioned... And because school is about more than Grades, and that has to be shown in some way.

[Keevan_Colton]

For coming into school with the work still undone. At home it may have taken them exactly the same amount of time, but thats largely irrelevent. It's a basic principle homework is to be done at Home. If you like the time it is actually ment to be done by is when the school bell goes at the start of the day.

For showing a poor attitude and work Ethic as previously mentioned... And because school is about more than Grades, and that has to be shown in some way.

Clearly the work was bullshit for this student, punishing them for a failure to give them work appropriate to their level seems stupid to me. Giving them more challenging assignments is one thing, detention is something else.

[Skelron]

And Keevan what if this had been an assignment that was going of to be marked, (For say GCSE's or the equivlent) and had taken them longer than they estimated to get it done?

The fact is if the child is complacent about assignments it could come round and bite them on the ass. What if on arriving at school assignment undone they discovered the external markers, wanted it typed....

Or if they where typing it, what if the printer was out or had unavailable. By leaving it to literally the last minute they would be risking a lot. Even if this is not a piece to go off to external markers, why let a bad habit form. Better to punish them and make it clear Homework is to be done at home, so that when the importent life affecting assignments come up they get them done in time. Leaving no risk of a last minute cock-up ruining their marks...

[Darth Wong]

You're still punishing the student for your own failure as an educator, fool. And these "what if" scenarios are pointless because they didn't happen. What if he started the night before, but his father died and he spent the night at hospital? OMG, he's a bad student!

[Keevan_Colton]

And Keevan what if this had been an assignment that was going of to be marked, (For say GCSE's or the equivlent) and had taken them longer than they estimated to get it done?

They'd loose marks for failing to meet the deadline or for failing to complete the assignment.

The fact is if the child is complacent about assignments it could come round and bite them on the ass.

Which is why you provide them with tasks of an appropriate level to their abilities.

What if on arriving at school assignment undone they discovered the external markers, wanted it typed....

What if perhaps springing that on them at that point means they're fucked anyway even if they did it at home?

Or if they where typing it, what if the printer was out or had unavailable. By leaving it to literally the last minute they would be risking a lot.

Yes indeed, detention isnt the answer though. Giving them work that will require effort is.

Even if this is not a piece to go off to external markers, why let a bad habit form. Better to punish them and make it clear Homework is to be done at home, so that when the importent life affecting assignments come up they get them done in time. Leaving no risk of a last minute cock-up ruining their marks...

Detention is a fucking retareded way to go about it. Provide a task that requires them to make an effort and they'll have to make an effort...slap them on the wrist and tell them making an effort is important despite evidence to the contrary and you just end up with a kid who thinks you're a stupid arsehole.

[Darth Wong]

Did you notice that Skelron's solution to an underchallenged student was to give that student "a whole extra heap of work"? Quantity rather than quality: Skelron's solution to education.

[Skelron]

You're still punishing the student for your own failure as an educator, fool. And these "what if" scenarios are pointless because they didn't happen. What if he started the night before, but his father died and he spent the night at hospital? OMG, he's a bad student!

Well then in this case I'd be wrong of course The point was that in a fairly standard situation last minute rushes can, and do lead to cock-up's. Anything can happen, and they should not really be relied upon.

Exams however do not allow for 'Oh the School Printer was down, so that even through I had a Month to do it, I couldn't be arsed till the actual day.' Also Exams don't allow for 'This is below Students level' You teach what is on the curriculam to teach no failure as an educator just what you have to teach.

All I did really was expand the situation to ask, should this habit be allowed to form, should Student A.) remain in the impression that doing the work on the day is acceptable. If they did form this impression what are potential outcomes.

Fucking hell all my scenerio's Wong where based on things you saw every Friday at Uni, as Students raced to find a Free Computer and started panicking at the size of the Printer Que. In short all my hypotheticals where things faced on a regular basis by those who have done the last minute rush. Myself included. It's a damn stupid habbit to get into, I speak from personal experiance, and yes it should be punished because you leave yourself no margin for error.

And as you yourself pointed out early on in this thread, the real world is very different than school. If in the real world you saw a very gifted employee constantly leaving work till the last possible second before racing through it, and then doing nothing. You'd know sooner or later they would screw up... And when they did, they would face a far harsher fucking punishment than 30 an hour lost free time.

If I allowed such a damn stupid habit to go on unpunished I would have failed as an educator. And at the same time if I did not push them harder with work more up to their level I would have failed thats why I said I would do both. Punish the Stupid Habit, and gave them work to a higher, more challanging level.

[Skelron]

Did you notice that Skelron's solution to an underchallenged student was to give that student "a whole extra heap of work"? Quantity rather than quality: Skelron's solution to education.

Oh I'm sorry if I did not express my thoughts better... but hay a cheap shots still a good one.

Yes obviously I meant work more approaite to their level. (When this is an option. If it's an external exam and the Assignment is on a specific topic, I have no choice obviously.)

[Darth Wong]

You're still punishing the student for your own failure as an educator, fool. And these "what if" scenarios are pointless because they didn't happen. What if he started the night before, but his father died and he spent the night at hospital? OMG, he's a bad student!

Well then in this case I'd be wrong of course The point was that in a fairly standard situation last minute rushes can, and do lead to cock-up's.

If the quality is good, then it was not "rushed" to the point of compromising quality, so there is no last-minute rush. And you are adding conditions to the project after the fact, which makes you an asshole; if the deadline for completion of the project were 9:00am that morning instead of the time of the class, you should have stipulated this beforehand instead of penalizing him for this ad-hoc addition to the project requirements.

Exams however do not allow for 'Oh the School Printer was down, so that even through I had a Month to do it, I couldn't be arsed till the actual day.' Also Exams don't allow for 'This is below Students level' You teach what is on the curriculam to teach no failure as an educator just what you have to teach.

No, it still makes you a failure as an educator. Teacher curricula are minimums, not maximums. There is no rule stating that you can't teach kids more than what the curriculum demands, and what about recommending him for a skipped grade? Isn't it part of your job to assess when students need special treatment?

All I did really was expand the situation to ask, should this habit be allowed to form, should Student A.) remain in the impression that doing the work on the day is acceptable. If they did form this impression what are potential outcomes.

Once again, the problem lies in your own failure, not the student's approach.

Fucking hell all my scenerio's Wong where based on things you saw every Friday at Uni, as Students raced to find a Free Computer and started panicking at the size of the Printer Que. In short all my hypotheticals where things faced on a regular basis by those who have done the last minute rush. Myself included. It's a damn stupid habbit to get into, I speak from personal experiance, and yes it should be punished because you leave yourself no margin for error.

Hey genius, guess what: if they're really pushing the margins, it will SHOW UP IN THE FINAL WORK.

And as you yourself pointed out early on in this thread, the real world is very different than school. If in the real world you saw a very gifted employee constantly leaving work till the last possible second before racing through it, and then doing nothing. You'd know sooner or later they would screw up... And when they did, they would face a far harsher fucking punishment than 30 an hour lost free time.

Quite frankly, no well-managed job will ever be so fucking easy that an employee can sit on his ass 90% of the way through a deadline and still get his work done with good quality and on time.

If I allowed such a damn stupid habit to go on unpunished I would have failed as an educator. And at the same time if I did not push them harder with work more up to their level I would have failed thats why I said I would do both. Punish the Stupid Habit, and gave them work to a higher, more challanging level.

It's not a stupid habit if it works. The reason those last-minute clowns you speak of get into trouble is that it's not working; that's why they panic, get in trouble, and turn in subpar work.

[Keevan_Colton]

Well then in this case I'd be wrong of course The point was that in a fairly standard situation last minute rushes can, and do lead to cock-up's. Anything can happen, and they should not really be relied upon.

Exams however do not allow for 'Oh the School Printer was down, so that even through I had a Month to do it, I couldn't be arsed till the actual day.' Also Exams don't allow for 'This is below Students level' You teach what is on the curriculam to teach no failure as an educator just what you have to teach.

All I did really was expand the situation to ask, should this habit be allowed to form, should Student A.) remain in the impression that doing the work on the day is acceptable. If they did form this impression what are potential outcomes.

This rather reminds me of the speech at the start of the first year of my degree...or rather the two speeches, the first was from the main academic in the department who gave the usual one about how you should do your work as you get it and not to let the deadlines pile up...after he left one of the former journalists working there turned around and said that actually you might as well get used to doing the stuff at the last minute and doing it right since that's all you're really going to have.

Fucking hell all my scenerio's Wong where based on things you saw every Friday at Uni, as Students raced to find a Free Computer and started panicking at the size of the Printer Que. In short all my hypotheticals where things faced on a regular basis by those who have done the last minute rush. Myself included. It's a damn stupid habbit to get into, I speak from personal experiance, and yes it should be punished because you leave yourself no margin for error.

There is that old saying that stupidity is its own punishment. Throwing detention at someone for being too smart for the course they're on is not a solution.

And as you yourself pointed out early on in this thread, the real world is very different than school. If in the real world you saw a very gifted employee constantly leaving work till the last possible second before racing through it, and then doing nothing. You'd know sooner or later they would screw up... And when they did, they would face a far harsher fucking punishment than 30 an hour lost free time.

Actually the usual approach in an office enviroment is much like the one you're apparently wanting to enforce where you have to look like you're working or else face punishment even if you've got the work done...the punishment there is usually in the form of being given extra work to do though which rather breaks the symetry with your idea.

If I allowed such a damn stupid habit to go on unpunished I would have failed as an educator. And at the same time if I did not push them harder with work more up to their level I would have failed thats why I said I would do both. Punish the Stupid Habit, and gave them work to a higher, more challanging level.

You push them to do the best they can, not punish them because they're better than what you're asking of them.

[Skelron]

Detention is a fucking retareded way to go about it. Provide a task that requires them to make an effort and they'll have to make an effort...slap them on the wrist and tell them making an effort is important despite evidence to the contrary and you just end up with a kid who thinks you're a stupid arsehole.

And so when work is easy they will still not make an effort. So when that set piece Essay turns up for external marking.. The one that I as an educator would have no control over, and which may actually be below their level... They will fall back on the bad habit.

For myself I was talking about Senior school over here in the UK. As an aside Senior school takes five years, the last two years are the GCSE years. For myself at Senior school just about every assignment in the last year had the potential to be externally marked.

(In the humanites it was over the two years) So where obviously on topics the Teahcer had a very limited control over. (The HoD's could pick what subjects where studied, (From a Short list) for example in English which, from a small selection, Shakesphere play)

In short stop picturing the Teacher as having free reign over what work he or she sets, and picture the actual class room. With Curriculam's and external Markers. Set Pieces that have to be given etc etc. Basically imagine the framework behind the Teacher.

[Keevan_Colton]

Quick note numb nuts, I am familiar with the education system in the UK...I did after all pass through it.

That's without even getting into minor details like half my family working in it either.

[Skelron]

[quote="Keevan_ColtonThis rather reminds me of the speech at the start of the first year of my degree...or rather the two speeches, the first was from the main academic in the department who gave the usual one about how you should do your work as you get it and not to let the deadlines pile up...after he left one of the former journalists working there turned around and said that actually you might as well get used to doing the stuff at the last minute and doing it right since that's all you're really going to have.
[/Quote]

I'd suggest even then a small safty margin is built in, that it is the Last safe minute. Hell I have no problem with the concept that the kid does it the night before at home an hour before going to bed...

An hour to write it, they estimate 45 minutes, but are covered if it takes a bit longer. Then if it is typed they can even save it to disk and print it of at school. (The 45 Minutes spent writing it at school should be enough time to Print. Or even Print at home. Still last minute, but it's the last safe minute...

If they like in that situation I'd even be happy for them to show off and stick a post-it-note on saying 'Did it in 45 Mins'. I'd give them the better work and no punishment.

Actually the usual approach in an office enviroment is much like the one you're apparently wanting to enforce where you have to look like you're working or else face punishment even if you've got the work done...the punishment there is usually in the form of being given extra work to do though which rather breaks the symetry with your idea.

Conceeded here...

You push them to do the best they can, not punish them because they're better than what you're asking of them.

I agree, in an 'ideal' world. (Actually of course it wouldn't be an ideal world. It would render education a wasted effort, since in the end qualifications are a neccersary part of this world) If as an educator I had complete choice over what the student learnt. I would simply do as you suggest. The reality through is very different, and sometimes god-damnit the kid just has to do the essay set by the State... And I do not want in this situation a clever kid to fail, because of their complacy, and a unforseen screw-up if I could do anything to prevent it.

[Skelron]

Quick note numb nuts, I am familiar with the education system in the UK...I did after all pass through it.

That's without even getting into minor details like half my family working in it either.

I did not know you where from the UK. I do not really know much about anyone's background here on SD.net.

I apologise for not knowing this. I also apologise for my quoting in the post above while I'm at it

[RedImperator]

There is no dilemia...

Student A.) Gets the better marks, and a see me note. Student B gets the lesser grade and a See me Note.

Student A.)'s See me session consists of a whole extra heap of work. Something anything that does challange them. School is about educating the Person after all. If it's Senior School they also get a detention. Writing the essay during School hours is sloopy and stupid. I don't care if they 'Exceeded' the criteria. It showed a lazy approach to work, and a poor work ethic.

Why, exactly, is it sloppy and stupid? You gave him an assignment he could scribble out in 45 minutes, and he scribbled it out in 45 minutes. A detention punishes him for your failure. And at any rate, it's not going to teach him anything about a good work ethic. It's going to teach him that school is a bullshit waste of time where jumping through hoops counts for more than the final result, and also, that you're a complete asshole who changes the rules on a whim. I had teachers like that in high school and I still resent them.

By the way, an individualized curriculum doesn't mean "a heap of extra work". That's a great way to teach kids to pretend to be stupid to avoid punishment for being too smart. It means you substitute assignments, maybe even (if he's bright enough) letting him do a project to replace a test. Giving him extra work is just acting like a dickhead.

[Faqa]

People suggesting Student A should be punished for "sloppy" work or banging out the paper in school:

This isn't the sort of thing that can be learned by punishments. You'll lose respect and engender bitterness in the student. And make him cleverer about where he writes his essays.

This sort of thing? You basically learn the hard way. You bleed a few times, get a few cock-ups and last-minute emergencies, and you learn to plan your work better. That's really the only approach that works.