King Kong, racism, and related bullshit

Quadlok · Post by **Quadlok** » 2005-12-16 01:12am

Apparently, King Kong is some sort of allegory for race relations and slavery or some such. This got me to thinking, do people who loudly point out racism in fictional material realize they are revealing that they are, infact, racist. Kong is black (no shit, he's a gorrilla) and is therefore meant to symbolize those poor victimized Africans. Niemoidians talk funny, are cowardly, and embrace capitalism, they must be Asians. Many Orcs have dark skin, so obviously they represent those darkie barbarians the British Empire was so fond of oppressing. All of this shows a tacit assumption that certain stereotypes and situations of different races are universally applicable within, and only with in, that race, and so anything fictional character, even a giant gorilla, that incorporates any such things is obviously representing a certain race.

So I ask, what the hell?

The Guid · Post by **The Guid** » 2005-12-16 01:38am

Racism affects people far more subtly than we might realise - and as such I do think it is possible that in the above examples a certain viewpoint came through in allegory form.

And I think there is a difference between recognising racial stereotypes and actually believing them.

Having said all of that I do think there is a band of oversensitivity. Sure, if you chose to read the Neimodians in such a way it might have a harmful effect but I wonder how many people saw it and indeed how many people who are affected by it day to day. I can see what these people are driving at but its really not a big issue.

UCBooties · Post by **UCBooties** » 2005-12-16 01:48am

I agree that it is annoying, but the problem with the debate as it deals with historical literature or film is that it is often impossible to completely divorce them from the times in which they were written. The question often becomes "do we forgive a racist work because it is a product of its times" rather than "is the work racist." Now I am not saying that Any particular work in question is or is not racist, merely pointing out a general problem with older works. It becomes impossible to determine what the author's intent and inspiration were after a long enough time, so we are left to assume that the historical context in which they lived and wrote affected their writting and charecterization.

Take a look at Taras Bulba, it is a strong, fast paced war story that has sympathetic charecters and an interesting, if straight forward plot. However it is unabashedly anti-semetic and utterly romanticizes the Cossacks who essentualy raped and burned their way through much of Poland. It's viewpoint is archaic and reprehensible by our standards, but should we abandon the story entirely?

Then there is the more familier case of the Lord of the Rings. J. R. R. T ultimately wrote a story about different races (literal species in this case) banding together to defeat evil. However all of his different races (excepting a few sub-species of elves) were still portrayed as fair-skinned peoples hailing from various romanticized versions of Europe's medievil past. Their foes by contrast were the dark skinned corsairs, tanned barbariens, and the various shadowy hues of ork and goblin. Casting decisions in the film adaptations cemented much of this imagery, but it is still difficult to say that the books or even films are racist, merely ethnocentric, which is somthing much of our film and fiction today remains guilty of, it being a product of our society.

tharkûn · Post by **tharkûn** » 2005-12-16 02:01am

Then there is the more familier case of the Lord of the Rings. J. R. R. T ultimately wrote a story about different races (literal species in this case) banding together to defeat evil. However all of his different races (excepting a few sub-species of elves) were still portrayed as fair-skinned peoples hailing from various romanticized versions of Europe's medievil past.

Tolkien's elves were Welsh and Finnish, neither were romanticized fair-skinned people. Jackson dicked up the casting something horrible.

Their foes by contrast were the dark skinned corsairs, tanned barbariens, and the various shadowy hues of ork and goblin.

And the white dude what was his name, oh yeah Saruman the White (not to mention his lackeys in the Shire who were not racially distinct). Frankly I can forgive Tolkien much as the bad guys come from the south and it appears that the climate is hotter. I don't frankly care who race you are, living in sun heavy climates will make people colored by melanin production and there will be a selective advantage for darker coloration.

I don't know if Kong is supposed to be allegorical, or if merely was an excuse to run wild with special efffects. I think there is an awful lot of truth that people see what they want to see in movies. Those who perceive racism as omnipresent can find racist intent in much of anything.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2005-12-16 02:28am

tharkûn wrote:Those who perceive racism as omnipresent can find racist intent in much of anything.

Just like those feminists who complain about the Washington Monument.

UCBooties · Post by **UCBooties** » 2005-12-16 02:41am

tharkun, that was much the point I was trying to make. My intent was to frame the debate, not take sides. To do so adequitly I needed to explain the points of contention.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2005-12-16 09:43am

This subject came to my mind when watching The Lion, The Witch & The Wardrobe at the cinema and on BBC DVD. The White Witch is the chief bad guy, yet, I wonder if she had been the Black Witch, would the new film have been protested by some? I certainly think people take this colour issue too far, the idea of light being good and darkness and the unknown being bad is hardly down to genetics but simple human thinking.

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2005-12-16 11:34am

Welsh and Finnish people aren't fair-skinned?

TheFeniX · Post by **TheFeniX** » 2005-12-16 11:49am

wolveraptor wrote:Welsh and Finnish people aren't fair-skinned?

If I'm not mistaken: Catherine Zeta Jones is Welsh and she easily passes for Hispanic.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2005-12-16 12:08pm

TheFeniX wrote:If I'm not mistaken: Catherine Zeta Jones is Welsh and she easily passes for Hispanic.

Before the US got ahold of her, she used to be in a drama-comedy called The Darling Buds Of May which was more often than not in some sunny county when being filmed. That, coupled with many expensive holidays, probably gave her that tan.

TheFeniX · Post by **TheFeniX** » 2005-12-16 12:14pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:
TheFeniX wrote:If I'm not mistaken: Catherine Zeta Jones is Welsh and she easily passes for Hispanic.
Before the US got ahold of her, she used to be in a drama-comedy called The Darling Buds Of May which was more often than not in some sunny county when being filmed. That, coupled with many expensive holidays, probably gave her that tan.

I think you're right. After a google image search, I've found she ranges from a distinctly dark appearance to almost snow white. Whether or not that's make-up, I don't know.

Oh well, Selma Hayek is much hotter.

Invictus ChiKen · Post by **Invictus ChiKen** » 2005-12-16 11:32pm

tharkûn wrote:
Then there is the more familier case of the Lord of the Rings. J. R. R. T ultimately wrote a story about different races (literal species in this case) banding together to defeat evil. However all of his different races (excepting a few sub-species of elves) were still portrayed as fair-skinned peoples hailing from various romanticized versions of Europe's medievil past.
Tolkien's elves were Welsh and Finnish, neither were romanticized fair-skinned people. Jackson dicked up the casting something horrible.

Their foes by contrast were the dark skinned corsairs, tanned barbariens, and the various shadowy hues of ork and goblin.
And the white dude what was his name, oh yeah Saruman the White (not to mention his lackeys in the Shire who were not racially distinct). Frankly I can forgive Tolkien much as the bad guys come from the south and it appears that the climate is hotter. I don't frankly care who race you are, living in sun heavy climates will make people colored by melanin production and there will be a selective advantage for darker coloration.

I don't know if Kong is supposed to be allegorical, or if merely was an excuse to run wild with special efffects. I think there is an awful lot of truth that people see what they want to see in movies. Those who perceive racism as omnipresent can find racist intent in much of anything.

Also I have to add Lord of the Rings is based off a romantisiced version of Celtic, Nordic and Anglo-Saxon myth and legend.

It's funny, I caught for a story I was trying to right that used the same thing, mostly 'white' people living in a land of myst covered mountains, valleys, forests, rivers, fjords and oceans. I was told I needed to add Asians, or Afircan type people to be racially sensitive.

Now here's the thing if I had done that I'd have caught the same kind of shit storm Bioware did with Jade Empire. There complaining it's a WHITE version of Asian culture. They they should stick to doing WHITE ect. ect. I wanted to slap these people and give them a universal fact with wiritng. You always write what you know.

I'm white, grew up in a WASP family and household. For better or worse guess what I know best?

anybody_mcc · Post by **anybody_mcc** » 2005-12-17 11:21pm

Invictus ChiKen wrote:It's funny, I caught for a story I was trying to right that used the same thing, mostly 'white' people living in a land of myst covered mountains, valleys, forests, rivers, fjords and oceans. I was told I needed to add Asians, or Afircan type people to be racially sensitive.

I think too many people in UK, Canada and US are too sensitive about this whole race issue. Even to the point of being totally irrational.

The best example of this was comment from some English viewer on the demonstrations in Ukraine. He said that Ukraine must be very racist country , because there were no black , indian or asian people on the demonstrations ( which in his eyes meant they are so persecuted , they even cannot participate ). Well i hope that he found out in the end that there is simply no racial diversity in Ukraine and not that they are racists.

Another thing is when American films add black characters where they do not belong at all , just to be pc.

Qwerty 42 · Post by **Qwerty 42** » 2005-12-17 11:30pm

DPDarkPrimus wrote:
tharkûn wrote:Those who perceive racism as omnipresent can find racist intent in much of anything.
Just like those feminists who complain about the Washington Monument.

That's the first time I've heard that. Do you have a link so I can see?

Kettch · Post by **Kettch** » 2005-12-18 03:20am

Qwerty 42 wrote:
DPDarkPrimus wrote:
tharkûn wrote:Those who perceive racism as omnipresent can find racist intent in much of anything.
Just like those feminists who complain about the Washington Monument.
That's the first time I've heard that. Do you have a link so I can see?

I've heard comments before that the washington monument is a huge philactic symbol. Now what I find ammusing about this is it is very selective interpretation of the monument. The whole monument sits on a very round hill, (that I think it is artificial), so one could argue it is a very large breast, w/ a very oversized nipple.

Ubiquitous · Post by **Ubiquitous** » 2005-12-18 10:03am

You know, way back in first year my American history teacher put King Kong on and told us of what it represented ... but for the life of me I can't remember what it was about. It might have been slavery ... maybe these people are trying to apply what was 'accepted' as the premise for the last KK for this new version, when infact PJ hasn't intended for any 'higher' meaning?

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2005-12-18 07:11pm

ALI_G wrote:You know, way back in first year my American history teacher put King Kong on and told us of what it represented ...

It's a good example of what was considered the social norm back then, but little else for an American history class.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2005-12-18 09:58pm

ALI_G wrote:You know, way back in first year my American history teacher put King Kong on and told us of what it represented ... but for the life of me I can't remember what it was about. It might have been slavery ... maybe these people are trying to apply what was 'accepted' as the premise for the last KK for this new version, when infact PJ hasn't intended for any 'higher' meaning?

??? Wasn't King Kong a story about how Man was a monster and not beast? If anything, it could be construed as a protest against racism.

You know, something more akin to Frankenstein?

Niemoidians talk funny, are cowardly, and embrace capitalism, they must be Asians.

Okay, I know what the feelings of this board is but I must reiterate this. GL may not had meant to do it, especially considering how sole elements of the Neimoidians are usually used in comedy, but the Neimodians taken as a whole do fall into the Asiatic stereotype found in the 1930s, other than capitalism. For aggressive capitalism, one goes to the 80s Hollywood industry, where films kept protraying the advance of the Japanese mega-corporation(Robocop anyone?)

Arguing that those who are able to see this stereotype are themselves racist is just ignoring the subject. The fact is, the stereotype existed in Western film industry in the past and many ppl saw the similarities. Thankfully, its not a complete fit as the Neimodians don't have the sing song manner of speaking as in the past but one can be excused for saying that it has similarities.

Battlehymn Republic · Post by **Battlehymn Republic** » 2005-12-18 10:41pm

PainRack wrote:Arguing that those who are able to see this stereotype are themselves racist is just ignoring the subject. The fact is, the stereotype existed in Western film industry in the past and many ppl saw the similarities. Thankfully, its not a complete fit as the Neimodians don't have the sing song manner of speaking as in the past but one can be excused for saying that it has similarities.

Well, they did mix up the "r" and "l" sounds, which could potentially make them stereotypes of sterotypical Japanese accents in English.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2005-12-19 01:57am

Battlehymn Republic wrote:
PainRack wrote:Arguing that those who are able to see this stereotype are themselves racist is just ignoring the subject. The fact is, the stereotype existed in Western film industry in the past and many ppl saw the similarities. Thankfully, its not a complete fit as the Neimodians don't have the sing song manner of speaking as in the past but one can be excused for saying that it has similarities.
Well, they did mix up the "r" and "l" sounds, which could potentially make them stereotypes of sterotypical Japanese accents in English.

The accent isbased off of Asians (in general) who are still learning English. That much is officially acknowledged.

However, that in no way makes it a stereotype. I guess because all the Imperial officers are Brits, GL is suggesting that the Empire is just a big allegory on British Imperialistic Expansion?

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2005-12-19 03:24am

DPDarkPrimus wrote:
However, that in no way makes it a stereotype. I guess because all the Imperial officers are Brits, GL is suggesting that the Empire is just a big allegory on British Imperialistic Expansion?

Quite correct! We can prove this because the soldiers are New Zealanders

..Now all we have to do is find the Australian plaing the proverbial village idiot

Lusankya · Post by **Lusankya** » 2005-12-19 03:39am

Stuart Mackey wrote:
DPDarkPrimus wrote:
However, that in no way makes it a stereotype. I guess because all the Imperial officers are Brits, GL is suggesting that the Empire is just a big allegory on British Imperialistic Expansion?
Quite correct! We can prove this because the soldiers are New Zealanders ..Now all we have to do is find the Australian plaing the proverbial village idiot

They're probably off-screen somewhere raising pretty sheep to sell to the clone army.

ROAR!!!!! says GOJIRA!!!!!

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2005-12-19 03:42am

Battlehymn Republic wrote:
PainRack wrote:Arguing that those who are able to see this stereotype are themselves racist is just ignoring the subject. The fact is, the stereotype existed in Western film industry in the past and many ppl saw the similarities. Thankfully, its not a complete fit as the Neimodians don't have the sing song manner of speaking as in the past but one can be excused for saying that it has similarities.
Well, they did mix up the "r" and "l" sounds, which could potentially make them stereotypes of sterotypical Japanese accents in English.

With the reason it's stereotypical, of course, being that there is no corresponding L sound in the Japanese language. Since they're pretty
much interchangeable in that language the L and R tend to get mixed around. A lot.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2005-12-19 03:43am

Lusankya wrote:
Stuart Mackey wrote:
DPDarkPrimus wrote:
However, that in no way makes it a stereotype. I guess because all the Imperial officers are Brits, GL is suggesting that the Empire is just a big allegory on British Imperialistic Expansion?
Quite correct! We can prove this because the soldiers are New Zealanders ..Now all we have to do is find the Australian plaing the proverbial village idiot
They're probably off-screen somewhere raising pretty sheep to sell to the clone army.

ROAR!!!!! says GOJIRA!!!!!

Brings new meaning to "Eating lamb" ...

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2005-12-20 06:19pm

DPDarkPrimus wrote: The accent isbased off of Asians (in general) who are still learning English. That much is officially acknowledged.

However, that in no way makes it a stereotype. I guess because all the Imperial officers are Brits, GL is suggesting that the Empire is just a big allegory on British Imperialistic Expansion?

Stereotype: One that is regarded as embodying or conforming to a set image or type.

Now, those who argue that based on an Asiatic stereotype, George Lucas is racist, now, that's a load of bull.