Tanks vs. Mechs: A Real Challenge

[Neko_Oni]

So it's as dangerous to a tank as an infantryman is, but it's far more expensive and much easier to spot for a Hind than an infantryman. I'm still not seeing why they designed these units the way they did. They seem like niches that didn't need filling.

GASARAKI SPOILER
They are designed like that because Kugai (ancient Japanese demons) are that size. The FAKES are called FAKES because they are copies of Kugai. They're just one step towards recreating an entire Kugai. It just turned out that they were useful ground combat weapons as well.

[SAMAS]

First of all, no nukes for either side. I forgot about those. Sorry.

Thank you. I just found this thread, but I was amazed and perturbed to see how mecha fans were instantly resorting to WMD in a fucking URBAN ENVIRONMENT. When you fight for control of territory, you don't murder everybody living in that territory. If they wanted to reduce NYC to a radioactive wasteland, they could have simply used a big strategic nuke instead of sending in infantry(!) and armour to do so (and suffer the consequences).

No kidding! The speed at which both sides resorted to nukes frightened me, frankly.

Here's a rundown of the mecha forces.

Fuchikomas -- Small quad-legged mecha seen in the Ghost in the Shell manga. Standard armament is a 15mm autocannnon or grenade launcher, and a pair of 6mm machineguns. It can also have heavier weapons mounted on it's sides or rear. The Fuchikoma is characterized by it's AI, it's ability to climb walls, and it's thermoptic cloaking system.

Could you apply a number to "small" in this context? What would be the use of this thing? Unless it's man-sized it can't get into buildings, and its armament is too weak to take out a tank. It seems to me that it would be easily spotted due to its size, and would be picked off sides of buildings by Hind fire.

It's about 5-7 feet from foot to top, and a little longer than that.

The standard Type 17 is typically used for police work, almost as a one-man SWAT team. Their AIs mean that if necessary, the pilot can enter a room or buiding, and have his Fuchikoma back him up. Their weapons are good for anti-personell and light vehicles, and as said before, they can have heavier weapons mounted on them for hard targets.

And the problem the Hinds are going to have is the fact that the Thermoptic camo(essentially a cloaking device) Allows them to hide in plain sight. That means a Hind can pass over or past a Fuchikoma and not know it until their tails got shot off.

Geuges-D Landmates -- a Roughly human-shaped mecha about 8-9 feet tall, it straddles the line between a suit of power armor and a full-sized mech. Typically armed with machineguns, flamethrowers, rockets, and other large hand-held weapons, the Geuges-D is characterized by it's four arms, Hermes antigravity/flight system, and sensor antennas that allow them to look around corners and track heat signatures.

Again, this looks like an anti-personnel unit, not an anti-tank unit. Heavy .50cal sniper rifle will take it out, judging by its size. If it stays inside buildings, its weight and size will always make its presence known before it shows up, so it will never get the first shot off.

Not quite. It's Hermes system is completly silent. and it's sensor antennae allow it to check out what's coming before it even makes itself visible and it can also use them to sight for it's rifles, thus allowing it to shoot around those corners as well(Vol. 2).

FAKES -- Medium-sized Mecha from the Gasaraki anime. About as tall, probably a little more, as an M1 Abrams tank. Armed with a Grenade launcher, and often equipped with other weapons such as autocannons, drills, and Anti-tank missiles.

So it's as dangerous to a tank as an infantryman is, but it's far more expensive and much easier to spot for a Hind than an infantryman. I'm still not seeing why they designed these units the way they did. They seem like niches that didn't need filling.

For one thing, the FAKE(and Fuchis and Landmates) is a lot less vulnerable to small-arms fire. In addition, they can carry more and heavier weapons, and deploy them quicker.

Type 74 Hover Truck -- A fast utility vehicle. Simply armed with a 20mm vulcan, this vehicle is fully equipped to suppourt a Federal Mobile Suit team with communications and sonar detection.

Why would you use a Vulcan on a truck?

In case you get shot at by a mobile suit or aircraft.

How much ammo can it carry?/quote]

Unknown.

[Typhonis 1]

Fine how would say a Northern Armord division or Sothern Armored Division do against this Mobiles suit force BTW the Northern and Southern refers to Heavy Gear

[Hotfoot]

No kidding! The speed at which both sides resorted to nukes frightened me, frankly.

Both sides resorted to nukes? IG-88E resorted to nukes, Sea Skimmer and MKSheppard returned with, "so what? Both sides can carry them if one side can, besides, it's a cop out". IG-88E tried to find reasons to deny nukes to the tank side to support the position that Zakus w/nukes would result in a total victory for the mecha side. He failed. Since both sides can bring nukes to the fight, the entire point is moot, and, as we already established, it's a cop-out anyway. It just happens to be a moot cop-out as well.

[Hotfoot]

Fine how would say a Northern Armord division or Sothern Armored Division do against this Mobiles suit force BTW the Northern and Southern refers to Heavy Gear

Depends. What are we talking about? Do they get arty? Just MBTs? Close-in Gear Support, or at the very least supporting infantry? Allers could well be a tremendous pain for the Mecha forces. That Heavy Railgun packs one hell of a punch, after all.

Now, assuming you replace the modern tanker force with Armor, Infantry, and air support from Heavy Gear, I'd say you'd have a total slaughter of the mecha forces. Militaries in Heavy Gear are used to commonly dealing with Mecha forces. Hell, replace the Hinds with A-22 Scorpions and you've got custom-made anti-mecha air support.

To be truly interesting though, you'll have to add in some support. Murdocks and Seekers would be included, probably give some of the infantry Antelopes and Wallabies. Oh, how I long for the Southern Tanks & Artillery Compendium...

Actually, what would be interesting to insert would be the War of the Alliance CEF task force. GRELs and HT-68s vs. Mecha. Not as much heavy firepower on the main cannon for the Hovertanks as the Northern and Southern Leagues, but that shouldn't be a huge problem, considering how damned accurate the things are, and it's not like you need anything too terribly heavy to take down mecha anyway.

[Pablo Sanchez]

The way I see it:

A) This whole scenario is a tacit admission of mech inferiority. The mech side needs equal numbers of vehicles which are FAR more expensive and larger than the tanks. This also includes a large number of humanoid style power armors which are apparently magical demon clones. (correct me if I'm wrong)

B) The entire battle depends on the efficacy of the mecha-side infantry. If they can contest the Russians, then it can go either way. If the Russians walk all over their counterparts (which I believe they might), it turns into a long attrition battle, with the T-90s and infantry advancing slowly across NYC, taking out Mechs mainly with infantry AT weapons and Hind support. The tanks operate mostly as gun platforms, because of the risk factor in urban combat. The Russians will probably win, but the strange selection of the forces ensures heavy losses for both sides.

[SAMAS]

The way I see it:

A) This whole scenario is a tacit admission of mech inferiority. The mech side needs equal numbers of vehicles which are FAR more expensive and larger than the tanks.

Actually, the Tanks outsize literally 3/4ths of the mecha(in short, everything but the Mobile Suits). And in this, expense has nothing to do with it. Only numbers.

This also includes a large number of humanoid style power armors which are apparently magical demon clones. (correct me if I'm wrong)

If you like, we can replace them with Tactical Armors, Autivalises, Vanguards, D.D. Battlemovers(with no bombs), GD-42 Battlemovers, Tau Crisis Suits, etc... The point was the size of the mecha. I was going for different Mecha styles and sizes here.

Not that their origin made any difference. I would've used them if they had been built normally.

B) The entire battle depends on the efficacy of the mecha-side infantry. If they can contest the Russians, then it can go either way. If the Russians walk all over their counterparts (which I believe they might), it turns into a long attrition battle, with the T-90s and infantry advancing slowly across NYC, taking out Mechs mainly with infantry AT weapons and Hind support. The tanks operate mostly as gun platforms, because of the risk factor in urban combat. The Russians will probably win, but the strange selection of the forces ensures heavy losses for both sides.

Actually, I haven't even mentioned the infantry on the Mecha side.

[Typhonis 1]

A balanced Northern force as in combined arms including artillery

[MKSheppard]

CONCESSION ACCEPTED ON THE NUKES

Since nobody's attacked my theory that nukes wont' work in
Minkovosky particle fields, and that the Zeon nukes have to be
low yield gun type nukes......

[Hotfoot]

A balanced Northern force as in combined arms including artillery

Northies take the mecha from K through 12.

[consequences]

Actually, the Fuchikomas are probably the worst threat from the mech side. Just by acting as invisble spotters for indirect fire they could accomplish a hell of a lot.

[SAMAS]

CONCESSION ACCEPTED ON THE NUKES

Since nobody's attacked my theory that nukes wont' work in
Minkovosky particle fields, and that the Zeon nukes have to be
low yield gun type nukes......

Number One: Nukes aren't allowed in this dabate anyway.

Number Two: There is nothing in an I-field to stop a Nuclear weapon, unless you detonate it remotely. How do you think that four out of seven Sides were destroyed in the first month of the war?

[The Yosemite Bear]

Because the sides and colony's are all very fragile, almost as realistic as a real world today made space station. Just a little decompression damage, and boom.

[SAMAS]

The hull of a Colony is not that fragile. These things have to suppout urban-based ecosystems against centrifigal force. This includes small mountians on some colonies, and entire cities and towns on all of them.

Not to mention meteorite impacts of varying sizes.

Their hulls can even withstand the impact of falling to Earth. After both the Sydney and North American Colony Drops(Which were multi-Gigaton impacts), There were still very large sections of the colony's hull mostly intact. There are two scenes in Gundam 0083 where Mobile Suits have mock fights against each other in and around them.

[Zaku-chan]

Zeon nukes have to be low yield gun type nukes......

Excuse me, but Zeonic nuclear warheads are launched from a 280mm bazooka, hardly a "low yield gun type"

[Evil Sadistic Bastard]

Not to mention they were capable of devastating institutions like the Colonies. And they had box magazines of around 15 shots each.

[Zaku-chan]

Urk...why is there no edit button?!

As for the "low yield" part of your argument, Gundam nukes have never AFAIK, been given yield ratings, so we can assume they are AT LEAST as powerful as modern nuclear warheads.

[Sea Skimmer]

Urk...why is there no edit button?!

As for the "low yield" part of your argument, Gundam nukes have never AFAIK, been given yield ratings, so we can assume they are AT LEAST as powerful as modern nuclear warheads.

Great, so that put the range as between about 200 tons and 9 megatons.

Your assumption is ground less and even if accepted which I'm atleast willing to, provides for a massive range in yeilds. Not what I'd call useful data.

[Sea Skimmer]

Zeon nukes have to be low yield gun type nukes......

Excuse me, but Zeonic nuclear warheads are launched from a 280mm bazooka, hardly a "low yield gun type"

http://nuketesting.enviroweb.org/hew/Us ... rabgun.jpg

The argument for gun type nuclear weapons is based on the interference directed against the electronics of implosions bombs. Not what fucking fires them.

You clearly do not understand that a gun device is a Type of Nuclear Bomb not a Delivery System

Your lack of even such basic knowledge makes it no surprise that you make just vague statements as "AT LEAST as powerful as modern nuclear warheads" without realizing that it gives a range that varies by orders of magnitude and is quite meaningless.

[Evil Sadistic Bastard]

*raises hand*

And why is it groundless may I ask?
I mean... wouldn't the technology of warhead manufacture have advanced during the time? Granted no timeframe is specified but I doubt the efficiency of the warheads would have decreased.

And if the nuclear shell is anything like that of the 280mm atomic cannon that was based in Germany it should be quite powerful.

[Sea Skimmer]

*raises hand*

And why is it groundless may I ask?
I mean... wouldn't the technology of warhead manufacture have advanced during the time? Granted no timeframe is specified but I doubt the efficiency of the warheads would have decreased.

And if the nuclear shell is anything like that of the 280mm atomic cannon that was based in Germany it should be quite powerful.

Given that they've adapted grossly less efficient machines as there primary combatants, produced crap for tanks and generally seem to act like morons I'd say maintaining advanced nuclear technology seems unlikely.

Hell they seem to love ineffiency in combat, so massive 5% efficient 40's nukes would be right up there alley.

Do you even know the yeild the shell fired by the 280mm artillery peice?

[Zaku-chan]

Great, so that put the range as between about 200 tons and 9 megatons.

Your assumption is ground less and even if accepted which I'm atleast willing to, provides for a massive range in yeilds. Not what I'd call useful data.

My point is, they are not specifically low-yield weapons.

*snips*

MKShappard's point seems to be that since they are fired from a gun, rather than a nuclear missile, they are low-yield. I'm simply saying that he's not necessarily right, since a 280mm bazooka can deliever a large warhead, not a small, low-yield package like his infantry nukes.

[Evil Sadistic Bastard]

No, i don't know the yield. Could you tell me?

[Beowulf]

MKShappard's point seems to be that since they are fired from a gun, rather than a nuclear missile, they are low-yield. I'm simply saying that he's not necessarily right, since a 280mm bazooka can deliever a large warhead, not a small, low-yield package like his infantry nukes.

That is NOT his point. Time for nuclear explosive physics lecture...

There are two types of nuclear devices. One is the Implosion type, the other is the gun type. A gun-type bomb, basically brings two sub-critical masses of uranium 235 together, to form a single supercritical mass. The downside of this is that it tends to be horrendously inefficient. The implosion-type compresses a sphere of fissile material, typically plutonium, to the point where it gets to a supercritical density. This is typically then boosted using a fusion second stage. To achieve the compression, a very specifically timed set of explosions must take place in the explosives surrounding the fissile material. If they don't work, the bomb doesn't make a very big boom. It's very dirty, but not very big.

Gun-type bombs are limited to about the yield given by the Little Boy bomb dropped on Hiroshima, which is about 20 kT. There ain't a heckuva lot of variability in yield in those types.

[Zaku-chan]

*snip*

Ah. Thank you for clearing that up.

Thing is, Zaku bazooka rounds aren't necessarily gun-type nukes. We don't really know anything about them, other than that they are able to punch through colony walls, which are seen to be capable of withstanding megatons of damage.