Check my figures for matter conversion please.

Currald · Post by **Currald** » 2002-12-04 12:33pm

Darth_Shinji wrote:Okay new clacs based on the rpg firepower system.

Good idea.

Duodec explosive is 1 million times as powerful as TNT and has a propogation rate equal to lightspeed. One ounce equals roughly 625 kilotons of TNT

These two sentences contradict eachother. An ounce should be worth 31.25 tons of TNT, going by the 1 million standard.

Lets us 20 mt figues as well. (Since I'm not sure how he got the kt fiqure.)

N=40mt
MB=1gt
P=400gt

Number of weapons on the duantless.
15N= totaling 3,000 firepower
20MB=100,000 firepower
8- three projector primary turrets=4.8 million firepower.

Either way we are looking at some nicer fiqures for lensman... basing this on my gut instincts... go with the 20 mts... though I'm considering pming the person who gave that original description to see where he got it.)

Those are nice. It calls into question a few things.

1. How long does the macro beam need to be turned on to inflict the damage indicated? Any GURPS players out there can help us out?

2. How is it that the macro can output more energy than is inputted? What am I missing here? Or did Barrett just err?

3. What page of GURPS Lensman is the Q-Gun's firepower listed on? I can't find it.

Well, you've given us some nice high-end numbers for the Dauntless. Very nice. Thank you.

Currald · Post by **Currald** » 2002-12-04 12:39pm

Oh, you may want to double all of those numbers, too, since the q-gun blast propagates in two directions, toward the target and back toward the firer.

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2002-12-04 12:47pm

Currald wrote:
Darth_Shinji wrote:Okay new clacs based on the rpg firepower system.
Good idea.

These two sentences contradict eachother. An ounce should be worth 31.25 tons of TNT, going by the 1 million standard.
I know... I'm assumeing that migt have been a calc he had from the novel or something. I'm trying to talk to him.

Lets us 20 mt figues as well. (Since I'm not sure how he got the kt fiqure.)

N=40mt
MB=1gt
P=400gt

Number of weapons on the duantless.
15N= totaling 3,000 firepower
20MB=100,000 firepower
8- three projector primary turrets=4.8 million firepower.

Either way we are looking at some nicer fiqures for lensman... basing this on my gut instincts... go with the 20 mts... though I'm considering pming the person who gave that original description to see where he got it.)
Those are nice. It calls into question a few things.

1. How long does the macro beam need to be turned on to inflict the damage indicated? Any GURPS players out there can help us out?

2. How is it that the macro can output more energy than is inputted? What am I missing here? Or did Barrett just err?

3. What page of GURPS Lensman is the Q-Gun's firepower listed on? I can't find it.

Well, you've given us some nice high-end numbers for the Dauntless. Very nice. Thank you.

1. not sure. It talks about the space combat system si I'll read more about it... it appears to be a single blast however.

2. They never call it a q-bomb... its from the missle and shells section. I've been told that thats the q-bomb.

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2002-12-04 12:50pm

opps messed up.

2 is surpossed to be three...

2. They never say thats the ammo... just the amount of power the guns consume.... maybe like a match to a dynamite stick?

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2002-12-04 12:51pm

oh, and your welcome.. [sorry long day today.

]

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2002-12-04 01:01pm

For every kilogram of matter or antimatter converted to energy, you will get 9E16 J. So, if I put 1 kg of matter together with 1 kg of antimatter, I'll get 1.8E17 J of energy, assuming a perfect reaction. A kilogram on Earth is roughly the equivalent of 2.2 pounds.

When you talk about tonnage in terms of energy yield, 4.2E9 J is the equivalent of 1 ton of TNT. So, 9E16 J is about 21.4 megatons.

Currald · Post by **Currald** » 2002-12-04 03:15pm

"Shells... mass anything up to one ton. ...have firepowers of 1-100 against inert targets only." (Barrett, 2001)

So I guess basic shells can mass up to 1 ton. The shell fired by the Q-Gun massed at least 20 tons, though. So extrapolate the firepower up by a factor of 20, that gives us 2000 firepower for the Q-Gun. Double it to get the total yeild (since it propagate in both directions) and we get 4000 firepower = 20 megatons.
1 firepower = 5 kilotons

So, 15 needlers (3000 firepower) = 15 megatons
20 Macro beams (100,000 firepower) = 500 megatons
8*3=24 Primary beams (4.8 million firepower) = 24 gigatons

Divide by the number of weapons to get yields for each shot

Needlers = 1 megaton
Macros ("standard shot") = 25 megatons
Primaries = 1 gigaton

Wow. Those are some nice round numbers there! So round that I wonder if we just reverse-engineered Barrett's damage system!

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2002-12-04 03:47pm

Currald wrote:"Shells... mass anything up to one ton. ...have firepowers of 1-100 against inert targets only." (Barrett, 2001)

So I guess basic shells can mass up to 1 ton. The shell fired by the Q-Gun massed at least 20 tons, though. So extrapolate the firepower up by a factor of 20, that gives us 2000 firepower for the Q-Gun. Double it to get the total yeild (since it propagate in both directions) and we get 4000 firepower = 20 megatons.
1 firepower = 5 kilotons

I'm with you till you double it. There both bombs, wouldn't doubling already be taken into account by the original bomb?

Currald · Post by **Currald** » 2002-12-04 03:52pm

Yes, but with either bomb only about half of the total yield is applied to the target (and hence qualifies as "firepower"), the other half is wasted. So I could have as easily said that 2000 firepower = 10 megatons.

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2002-12-04 03:58pm

Currald wrote:"Shells... mass anything up to one ton. ...have firepowers of 1-100 against inert targets only." (Barrett, 2001)

So I guess basic shells can mass up to 1 ton. The shell fired by the Q-Gun massed at least 20 tons, though. So extrapolate the firepower up by a factor of 20, that gives us 2000 firepower for the Q-Gun. Double it to get the total yeild (since it propagate in both directions) and we get 4000 firepower = 20 megatons.
1 firepower = 5 kilotons

I'm with you till you double it. There both bombs, wouldn't doubling already be taken into account by the original bomb?

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2002-12-04 04:01pm

sorry don't know how that happened.

Alwell.... I'll stick with these numbers till I get the novels.

Currald · Post by **Currald** » 2002-12-04 04:43pm

Arrgh! They're still no good! The "Missiles and Shells" are rated at Tech Stage 0, while duodec is Tech Stage 5! So the missiles and shells can't be duodec. I don't know what they are (nukes, cyclonite?). So we STILL don't have good numbers. Bah!

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2002-12-04 06:40pm

That sucks... I would rather have a good idea of there firepower than nothing at all.

Currald · Post by **Currald** » 2002-12-04 09:59pm

O-KAY! Here are the new new figures! I checked the GURPS Basic rulebook and discovered that a combat round in GURPS is 1 second long. Now I can take my previous calculations of macro beam strength and endevour to extrapolate them to the primary beams via the firepower numbers.

Macro Beams (a.k.a. secondaries) (20 total)
50 lph ea.
5000 firepower per 1 second blast
135.32875 kilotons per 1 second blast

I don't buy the explanation that the macros use a system similar to the primaries (exploding charges) as they have a much higher lbh rating and are described as firing a continuous beam. Barrett does say that the an average Tech Stage 3 PLANET only generates 1/2 lbh, so I guess these numbers are actually pretty high, just not as high as the Star Wars figures...

Primaries
200,000 firepower per shot
(so the primaries are 40 times more powerful than the macros)
5.41315 megatons per shot

These yields seem way too low. Why would the primaries do half as much damage as the Q-Gun? I don't believe it for a second.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2002-12-04 10:32pm

Just out of pure curiosity, where in the GURPS rulebook does it say that the weapons operate on converting matter into energy? If I said a flamethrower expends x amount of napalm per second of discharge, do I plug x into E = mc^2 and expect to find a realistic estimate of the energy contained in the flame?

No.

And, are you admitting that you're trying to artificially inflate these figures to compete with Star Wars?

Currald · Post by **Currald** » 2002-12-05 12:12am

Durandal wrote:Just out of pure curiosity, where in the GURPS rulebook does it say that the weapons operate on converting matter into energy?

All of the power ratings are expressed in lbh: Pounds Per Hour, as in pounds of matter converted into energy (E=MC^2) per hour. The numbers were justtoo damned big to use joules.

And, are you admitting that you're trying to artificially inflate these figures to compete with Star Wars?

I am not admitting that I'm trying to artificially inflate these figures to compete with Star Wars. I'm admitting that I'm getting cranky and disappointed when they fail to compete with Star Wars. There's a difference. I'm having more trouble than I expected getting accurate calculations. The dots just aren't quite connecting. I have a solid figure on a bomb yield, but no way to compare it to the other weapons. I have a solid figure on a beam weapon's power consumption, but it fails to jibe correctly in yield with the bomb's yield. I may have to reread the series yet again and try to find the missing puzzle piece.

Post by **AdmiralKanos** » 2002-12-05 12:27am

Currald wrote:All of the power ratings are expressed in lbh: Pounds Per Hour, as in pounds of matter converted into energy (E=MC^2) per hour. The numbers were justtoo damned big to use joules.

So they use a fucked-up unit system of lb/hr instead? Ever heard of scientific notation?

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2002-12-05 01:03am

All of the power ratings are expressed in lbh: Pounds Per Hour, as in pounds of matter converted into energy (E=MC^2) per hour. The numbers were justtoo damned big to use joules.

Pounds per hour? That's not a unit of energy or mass; it's a unit of momentum. A fucked up one, to be sure, but it's force per unit of time. Don't the writers of these books know anything? Didn't they take high school physics? Pounds with respect to which gravitational field? Earth's? The Moon? A small gas cloud?

Anyway, assuming they mean a pound on Earth (2.2kg), here is what you're looking for. Converting 2.2 kg of mass per hour means that, every hour, you get about 2E17 J of energy per hour, for a power output of 5.5E13 W, or 13 kilotons (about 1 Hiroshima bomb) per second. Impressive, but hardly a match for the Empire.

I am not admitting that I'm trying to artificially inflate these figures to compete with Star Wars. I'm admitting that I'm getting cranky and disappointed when they fail to compete with Star Wars. There's a difference. I'm having more trouble than I expected getting accurate calculations. The dots just aren't quite connecting. I have a solid figure on a bomb yield, but no way to compare it to the other weapons. I have a solid figure on a beam weapon's power consumption, but it fails to jibe correctly in yield with the bomb's yield. I may have to reread the series yet again and try to find the missing puzzle piece.

Don't strain yourself. The writers are obviously morons, so don't expect their firepower figures to be anything resembling consistent.

Currald · Post by **Currald** » 2002-12-05 03:13am

AdmiralKanos wrote:
Currald wrote:All of the power ratings are expressed in lbh: Pounds Per Hour, as in pounds of matter converted into energy (E=MC^2) per hour. The numbers were justtoo damned big to use joules.
So they use a fucked-up unit system of lb/hr instead? Ever heard of scientific notation?

Well, they use is elsewhere in the book, but I guess they figured it was cumbersome when you had to add up a bunch of these numbers. 1.2*10^6 + 2*10^12 + 6.22*10^6 etc. is a lot harder to deal with than 1 + 6 + 2...

Currald · Post by **Currald** » 2002-12-05 03:15am

Durandal wrote:The writers are obviously morons

Is that your professional opinion?

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2002-12-05 07:00am

Durandal wrote:
And, are you admitting that you're trying to artificially inflate these figures to compete with Star Wars?

Just to add, I've never seen a debate between Lensman and SW.... Lensman is usauly put up against the 4th empire from David Weber. Thats the level Lensman is usauly put against.

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2002-12-05 07:00am

Durandal wrote:
And, are you admitting that you're trying to artificially inflate these figures to compete with Star Wars?

Just to add, I've never seen a debate between Lensman and SW.... Lensman is usauly put up against the 4th empire from David Weber. Thats the level Lensman is usauly put against.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2002-12-05 10:35am

Huh, which level of Civilisation usually gets thrown at the 4th Empire.?

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2002-12-05 10:40am

consequences wrote:Huh, which level of Civilisation usually gets thrown at the 4th Empire.?

The most advanced. Like at the end of the novels I think. Sometimes with Artisan.

Its usally perryverse, 4thimp, and Lensman at that level.

Currald · Post by **Currald** » 2002-12-05 11:19am

Right, I'm not saying that Smith's Civilization wouldn't eat Lucas's Empire for breakfast, I'm just doing the Dauntless right now.

Or I'm trying to...