US vs Naboo

[Darth PhysBod]

The Naboo fighters weapons were pathetic, they did fuck all to the walls in the hanger, they blew droids up in the hangar and on the ship but with no collateral damage (no KT weaponry), the torpedoes had a pathetic explosion... there was nothing impressive about the Nubian fighters.

And why would they have the weapons fully charged in the hanger? Do you really think they would risk widespread damage from a weapon discharge possibly in the TJ range?. We see from EpII:AoTC that Slave 1's tail guns are 'dialled down' on the landing platform (compare to the asteroids shattered in the chase).

Consider also the explosions the weapons produce in the vacuum of space. Before Anakin joins the battle we can clearly see multiple explosions around the control ship due to the fighter enagagments, how is it possible to have reasonable sized explosion in space but none at all in a hanger?.
Also consider the scene inside the control ship. Anakin states "Everything is overheated", when power is finally restored the weapons again produce the same effects as in the hanger.

Clearly they either require time to charge up, or Anakin did not figure out how to 'dial the power up' (possible as we dont actually see him firing any shots while in space).

As to the torpedo's you, as with many people, have ignored the rather large explosion a torpedo generates upon impacting the shield, its diameter is ~20 times the wingspan of a fighter (anyone know what that is?) and thats in the vacuum of space!.

Clearly there is something different about the torpedo Anakin fires inside the TF ship, which produces an explosion only ~3m or so in diamter in an atmosphere!. Given the difference in explosions it is in fact reasonable to suggest the torpedos Ankain fired were not even armed (think a 'master arm' switch), especially considering he hardly knew the controls.

If they had been KT level shots everyone in the hangar would have been vaped, as would all the droids in the ship, if the torpedoes were nuke-range yield then the whole ship would have been destroyed instantly when they went off inside it, (and anakin would also have been dead) instead of some "There seems to be a problem with the main reactor" scene.

In fact no star wars fighter ever seen has had nuclear-range yields..

See above, and no, you are incorrect in that last statement; refer to Slave 1's weaponry in EpII:AoTC, and remember when considering the explosions this is in a vacuum

You're free to use Mr. Saxton's stuff if you want, but given the fact that it contradicts all instances of onscreen fighters firing there weapons, it's fairly obvious MASTURBATION.

I would really like to see you try to prove there is a contradiction, please by all means go ahead you wont be the first to try...

[DodoBrd16]

If your sensors are not turned on or aimed at the right area, then its unlikely they will detect anything.

"Because the battle was only a few miles outside the city, a TL would also destroy the city on full power "
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You dont know if a full powered shot would be required.

"If that's even possible "
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If you can put a fighter together, you can take it apart. See a fighter that wont come apart is pretty damn hard to conduct maintance(sp) on.


"And they didn't just have that tank hangin around the palace? guess again. "
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No clue what that means, all I know is that a federation tank, sitting out side the hangar was able to shoot down a fighter comming out of the hangar.


"Little Massiah kid who is "The best pilot in the galaxy" and can "see things before they happen"
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No...the little messiah kid who still doesnt know how to control his ability and has no experiance, what so ever flying a fighter.


"Idiot. The trade federation would have you beggin for them to stop in under an hour "
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We are talking about the same trade federation right? The Trade federation that deployed its soldiers well within artillery....tank...rocket fire range..... and had their units walk in columns towards the enemies posistion. LOL good god a guy with a SAW could level dozens of Trade federation robots, let alone a heavy machine gun. The only thing the trade federation has going for it is its fleet assets. Which I will fully agree, pulverize any invasion force.


"Yeah obiously the USA have the better sensor equipment "
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Never said we did.


"Whereupon the naboo ask them who the hell they are. They say "were the USofA yeehaaa and quickly eat KT crispy death "
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Assuming they even know they are there. Upon which point the peaceful democracy that is Naboo would probably try to open relations. And with out suprise and detailed intel of Naboo, we wouldnt attempt an assualt.


"And they get there how. Sensors. What are they going to do get across Naboo's oceans in a fucking Canoe? "
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Rubber raft with a motor on the back or using paddles. Its the way almost all of our special forces hit the beach,its low observable.


"None of which they could even understand. "
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A military base does not have to fit into a set pattern, it can look like anything and our special forces units are trained to spot such things.

And it wouldnt be hard to find Defense force buildings, its the buildings that the guys in uniform come in and out of with small arms weaponry. And all Marine Recon would have to do is wait for some one to break a local law and follow where they are taken.

Power generators......no of course they wouldnt be able to figure that out.... its only going to be the place where probably the most heat in the city is generated. And taking this out is not as necessary as communications.

And speaking of coms, last I saw, they still used dishes for such things as well. And close range coms are not as important as planetary.


"And you know the naboo don't have a sheild because? "
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Because not once was it mentioned in the movie and if they had one that I doubt the threat of the federation fleet would have been all that big if they did have one.


"which they couldn't understand. "
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And why not?


"Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang

That is the sound of a single laser cannon shot each obliterating all of the above.

Need I add that "radio restraint" would do fuck all? "
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And their ground units are doing this from beyond the horizon how?


"No, it's not the only one... its the one they had access to in the film "
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If there was more then one then it is most likely that we would have seen a great deal more fighters on the assault of the federation ships.

Hell it would probably be easier to get to other hangars since I'm rather certain that the Federation put the majority of its troops into securing the capitol.

So its most likely that there is only one hangar.


"The hutts are assumed to be in charge, and they would pay them. "
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Most would probably leave before the hutts even knew what the hell was happening.


"Fool"
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Ah.....very good counter argument there sir........

[NecronLord]

If your sensors are not turned on or aimed at the right area, then its unlikely they will detect anything.

"Because the battle was only a few miles outside the city, a TL would also destroy the city on full power "
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You dont know if a full powered shot would be required.

"If that's even possible "
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If you can put a fighter together, you can take it apart. See a fighter that wont come apart is pretty damn hard to conduct maintance(sp) on.

Back in context please

"And they didn't just have that tank hangin around the palace? guess again. "
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No clue what that means, all I know is that a federation tank, sitting out side the hangar was able to shoot down a fighter comming out of the hangar.


"Little Massiah kid who is "The best pilot in the galaxy" and can "see things before they happen"
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No...the little messiah kid who still doesnt know how to control his ability and has no experiance, what so ever flying a fighter.

And has great destiny and of course the "Cuteness factor"

"Idiot. The trade federation would have you beggin for them to stop in under an hour "
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We are talking about the same trade federation right? The Trade federation that deployed its soldiers well within artillery....tank...rocket fire range..... and had their units walk in columns towards the enemies posistion. LOL good god a guy with a SAW could level dozens of Trade federation robots, let alone a heavy machine gun. The only thing the trade federation has going for it is its fleet assets. Which I will fully agree, pulverize any invasion force.


"Yeah obiously the USA have the better sensor equipment "
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Never said we did.

You claimed the US would find the wormhole first. Unlikely

"Whereupon the naboo ask them who the hell they are. They say "were the USofA yeehaaa and quickly eat KT crispy death "
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Assuming they even know they are there. Upon which point the peaceful democracy that is Naboo would probably try to open relations. And with out suprise and detailed intel of Naboo, we wouldnt attempt an assualt.

Flase Dilema. This is a Vs. Immediate hostilities are imposed regardless

"And they get there how. Sensors. What are they going to do get across Naboo's oceans in a fucking Canoe? "
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Rubber raft with a motor on the back or using paddles. Its the way almost all of our special forces hit the beach,its low observable.

But do they cross from the middle of the ocean to land in it. NO

"None of which they could even understand. "
_______________________________________________________________________

A military base does not have to fit into a set pattern, it can look like anything and our special forces units are trained to spot such things.

And it wouldnt be hard to find Defense force buildings, its the buildings that the guys in uniform come in and out of with small arms weaponry. And all Marine Recon would have to do is wait for some one to break a local law and follow where they are taken.

Power generators......no of course they wouldnt be able to figure that out.... its only going to be the place where probably the most heat in the city is generated. And taking this out is not as necessary as communications.

The duel at the end of the film is the palace power generator. I didn't see any particularly large amouns of heat effects

And speaking of coms, last I saw, they still used dishes for such things as well. And close range coms are not as important as planetary.

Justify yourself

"And you know the naboo don't have a sheild because? "
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Because not once was it mentioned in the movie and if they had one that I doubt the threat of the federation fleet would have been all that big if they did have one.

50 odd battleships>sheild

"which they couldn't understand. "
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And why not?


"Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang

That is the sound of a single laser cannon shot each obliterating all of the above.

Need I add that "radio restraint" would do fuck all? "
_______________________________________________________________________

And their ground units are doing this from beyond the horizon how?

Because they are as dead as a doornail which has been ground down to a powder, placed in a coffin, cremated, and the ashed interred in a tomb before they even hit the beach.

"No, it's not the only one... its the one they had access to in the film "
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If there was more then one then it is most likely that we would have seen a great deal more fighters on the assault of the federation ships.

Except the pilots where the only ones released by the queen and co.

Hell it would probably be easier to get to other hangars since I'm rather certain that the Federation put the majority of its troops into securing the capitol.

You know this how?

So its most likely that there is only one hangar.


"The hutts are assumed to be in charge, and they would pay them. "
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Most would probably leave before the hutts even knew what the hell was happening.

"Fool"
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Ah.....very good counter argument there sir........

anyone who thinks that the "good ol USofA would beat the naboo is a complete fool and a candidate for the dawin award.

[Majin Gojira]

Well, it all depends if their are any Sando Aqua Monsters in the Area near the portals...

[Hammer]

Well, it all depends if their are any Sando Aqua Monsters in the Area near the portals...

Any whats?

[NecronLord]

The big huge undewater godzilla

[Darth Wong]

On one hand, the idea of using orbital bombardment to solve everything may be unrealistic. There are limits to what you can achieve with air power, particularly in obscured terrain.

However, I think that the US military deployment schemes all ignore the very serious logistical problems involved in trying to deploy troops and war materiel on a planetary scale. We're not talking about attacking Saddam Hussein; compare the land area of Iraq to the land area of the world, and you will see the problem. The Naboo people may be idiots, but airdrops can only carry so much, and ships are sitting ducks as they move slowly across the water. Air cover would be next to useless given the speed of the Naboo fighters (in aerial combat, speed kills), and they'd be able to strike US ships on the water with impunity.

Deployment is the killer factor here. The US can deploy slowly, whlie the Naboo can call on quick reinforcements. They could get backup from off-world locations faster than the Americans could deploy this multi-million man force to any land mass on their planet. And in any given situation, they can call on reinforcements much faster. They may be idiots with no real military, but they would have more than enough time to simply call for help, and their fighters would wreak havoc until Republic reinforcements arrive.

Also remember that the question was "take and hold", which seals the case. Even if they could take Naboo, they could never hold it against the Republic or Empire. To even suggest that they could do so in the face of such vastly superior firepower is simply ridiculous; one Acclamator coming back through the portal would easily hold the entire planet Earth hostage.

[Manji]

The fighters are incapable of their full speed in an atmosphere though.

[Ghost Rider]

And the speeds they were shown to achieve orbital combat is comparable to X-Wings...and you're saying that the F-16/22...etc are even beginning to achieve this speed.

We're talking about morons but morons with a VAST tech edge above the USA.

[NecronLord]

What has canada got to do with anything?

I am still of the opinion that a naboo fighter squadron could take out the naval taskforce from low orbit. If not with Laser cannons then with torps...

[Slartibartfast]

I'm pretty much sure that two or three security guards with blasters could obliterate a Main Battle Tank. Their armor penetration must be huge (I don't talk about melting it, more like disabling it. Think sandcrawler)

What is the firepower of hand weapons in SW compared to modern weapons again?

[Sea Skimmer]

The fighters would be an issue for about three hours. Then the first ALCM flies into the fighter hanger and explodes against the back wall. Thirty more follow. After that there pretty screwed.

[NecronLord]

Errmm not very likely

A) The republican Navy is there in three hours and a whole gaggle of jedi. In full ass kicking not AotC weakened state

B) not only would an ALCM have difficulty hitting the right building (due to the god-like Jamming), for all we know that thing could be plated in Dura-armour

C) we don't know if Theed is within range or if they'd have to go through (and be shot down) first.

D) there is a distinct possibility that the palace has a sheild.

[Darth Wong]

The fighters would be an issue for about three hours. Then the first ALCM flies into the fighter hanger and explodes against the back wall. Thirty more follow. After that there pretty screwed.

You seem to be assuming that the navy deploys within range of this hangar. Last time I checked, neither navies or their fighters have global range within 3 hours, while Naboo fighters have global range within minutes. This is an entire planet we're talking about; are we assuming that the entry point is right on top of the Naboo's only military facility, just to weight things against them?

[Sea Skimmer]

Errmm not very likely

A) The republican Navy is there in three hours and a whole gaggle of jedi. In full ass kicking not AotC weakened state

B) not only would an ALCM have difficulty hitting the right building (due to the god-like Jamming), for all we know that thing could be plated in Dura-armour

C) we don't know if Theed is within range or if they'd have to go through (and be shot down) first.

D) there is a distinct possibility that the palace has a sheild.

[1] This is Naboo vs. The US Armed forces, not the Republic vs. the US Armed Forces
[2] You expect to jam an INS system how?
[3] The hanger is wide open, A wide range of US PGM's can fly though a gap that size.
[4] The Naboo have about 60 fighters, they're not going to be able to cover all approaches in the weapons range while still attacking ground forces.
[5] There's no real reason for a shield and the ICS Locations does not mention one while showing the entire building in some detail.

[NecronLord]

Not to mention the fact that it has big honking armoured doors which are possibly Dura-Armour in which case they could use nuclear armed ALCM and not do more than scratch the paint. And kill all the locals

[Sea Skimmer]

The fighters would be an issue for about three hours. Then the first ALCM flies into the fighter hanger and explodes against the back wall. Thirty more follow. After that there pretty screwed.

You seem to be assuming that the navy deploys within range of this hangar. Last time I checked, neither navies or their fighters have global range within 3 hours, while Naboo fighters have global range within minutes. This is an entire planet we're talking about; are we assuming that the entry point is right on top of the Naboo's only military facility, just to weight things against them?

No, just assuming its within 2000 miles or so. However given that the Naboo are less likely to shoot first then UN peacekeepers, it may be possibul for a heavy bomber, which would be completely unknown to them to fly right up to the city. They allow ships with kiloton weapons to land right by the city after all. A friendly waving pilot and internal weapons load make things pretty easy.

[Darth Wong]

Why would the Naboo fighters be occupied engaging ground forces right from the get-go? How long would it take to deploy ground forces when you start from the middle of an ocean? And do the Gungans have any anti-ship weapons?

[NecronLord]

Errmm not very likely

A) The republican Navy is there in three hours and a whole gaggle of jedi. In full ass kicking not AotC weakened state

B) not only would an ALCM have difficulty hitting the right building (due to the god-like Jamming), for all we know that thing could be plated in Dura-armour

C) we don't know if Theed is within range or if they'd have to go through (and be shot down) first.

D) there is a distinct possibility that the palace has a sheild.

[1] This is Naboo vs. The US Armed forces, not the Republic vs. the US Armed Forces
[2] You expect to jam an INS system how?
[3] The hanger is wide open, A wide range of US PGM's can fly though a gap that size.
[4] The Naboo have about 60 fighters, they're not going to be able to cover all approaches in the weapons range while still attacking ground forces.
[5] There's no real reason for a shield and the ICS Locations does not mention one while showing the entire building in some detail.

1) Take and Hold. The naboo would send for assistance. Or you can have them isolated from the republic if you want, but that would mean our freind palpy (force storm anyone) would be there)
2) The fact that the INS ststem would be inoprable, due to different planetry conditions. gravity, sea level external pressure magnetic north etc. etc. and it would be relying on remote guidance.
3) so therefore they can't close the doors because they are open in the film They are bloody doors!
4) they don't have to, just take up position behind/above the wormhole on repulsors and shoot anyting coming through.
5)Abscence of Evidence is not evidence of abscenece.

[Sea Skimmer]

Not to mention the fact that it has big honking armoured doors which are possibly Dura-Armour in which case they could use nuclear armed ALCM and not do more than scratch the paint. And kill all the locals

ICS shows no doors for the hanger entrance and the while thing appears to be built of stone.

More effective would be to land a B-61-11 against the cliff face, then follow it up with another until a big chunk falls away. I dubt the hanger will remain in good shape if its been undermined.

[NecronLord]

Why would the Naboo fighters be occupied engaging ground forces right from the get-go? How long would it take to deploy ground forces when you start from the middle of an ocean? And do the Gungans have any anti-ship weapons?

They wouldn't be engaging ground forces, any ground forces the americans send will be eating crispy death.

[NecronLord]

Not to mention the fact that it has big honking armoured doors which are possibly Dura-Armour in which case they could use nuclear armed ALCM and not do more than scratch the paint. And kill all the locals

ICS shows no doors for the hanger entrance and the while thing appears to be built of stone.

More effective would be to land a B-61-11 against the cliff face, then follow it up with another until a big chunk falls away. I dubt the hanger will remain in good shape if its been undermined.

good idea. The film shows them to be doors. IIRC else why the lock?

[NecronLord]

This is a Vs. the Naboo will fight back. If it was a political discussion of a potential meeting then i assume the USA aren't brain-dead enough to attack.

[Darth Wong]

Why should we assume the USN deploys within 2000 miles of the hangar? On Earth, 94% of the surface of the planet lies outside any given 4000 mile wide circle.

And as for sneaking up, it seems unfair to assume the US launches a massive first-strike for no reason against a non-aggressor nation, while the defenders retain their normal personality.

[Sea Skimmer]

Errmm not very likely

A) The republican Navy is there in three hours and a whole gaggle of jedi. In full ass kicking not AotC weakened state

B) not only would an ALCM have difficulty hitting the right building (due to the god-like Jamming), for all we know that thing could be plated in Dura-armour

C) we don't know if Theed is within range or if they'd have to go through (and be shot down) first.

D) there is a distinct possibility that the palace has a sheild.

[1] This is Naboo vs. The US Armed forces, not the Republic vs. the US Armed Forces
[2] You expect to jam an INS system how?
[3] The hanger is wide open, A wide range of US PGM's can fly though a gap that size.
[4] The Naboo have about 60 fighters, they're not going to be able to cover all approaches in the weapons range while still attacking ground forces.
[5] There's no real reason for a shield and the ICS Locations does not mention one while showing the entire building in some detail.

1) Take and Hold. The naboo would send for assistance. Or you can have them isolated from the republic if you want, but that would mean our freind palpy (force storm anyone) would be there)
2) The fact that the INS ststem would be inoprable, due to different planetry conditions. gravity, sea level external pressure magnetic north etc. etc. and it would be relying on remote guidance.
3) so therefore they can't close the doors because they are open in the film They are bloody doors!
4) they don't have to, just take up position behind/above the wormhole on repulsors and shoot anyting coming through.
5)Abscence of Evidence is not evidence of abscenece.

If your going to bring quadrillions of beings with a technological advantage in aginst a couple percent of one planet then theres really no point in debat is there?

If where going to assume that US weapons won't work then whats the damn point of this? By the same hand USN vessel's might sink because of the composition of the water and aircraft might not be able to fly.

The Naboo really are the shot first kill thousands type

Lets see, you claime they could have shields. A detailed drawning shows none. The moive shows none. If you can't present any evidence of shields then you've got zip.