Hyperdrive vs. Borg Transwarp - take 2

[vivftp]

Ok, since the last thread was recently closed and I was asked to make a new one, here we are

I've briefly done this topic in the past, but that was quite some time ago. So I'm wondering, which of the 2 FTL methods is the faster of the 2? In this, we will be using Borg transwarp coils which all Borg ships have, not the hubs or the conduits seen in Endgame or Descent. I had seen a hyperdrive chart once on SB, I don't know if it was canon or not, but if it is, can anyone post it?

I'll start off with a couple of my own calcs for Borg transwarp coils based on the events in VOY's Dark Frontier:

In Voyagers Dark Frontier, the Delta Flyer using a stolen Borg transwarp coil travelled from Voyagers location to the primary unicomplex in an unknown amount of time (they were following the trail of a Borg sphere). When the Flyer was returning to Voyagers location, here's the series of events...

- DF enters transwarp conduit
- Borg diamond enters transwarp conduit right behind it
- cut to inside of DF, Paris notes that a ship entered the conduit right after them (so this negates the possibility of a time lapse)
- Paris notes 2.4 minutes to Voyagers location at 35 seconds into the trip... so approx 3 minutes for the DF to travel the distance from the Primary Unicomplex to Voyagers location... now we figure out how far that is...

- In Scorpion, we know Voyager had just entered the outer rim of Borg space, and had apparently managed to travel at least 40 lightyears into it.
- In the following episode, The Gift, we know they'd been continuing to travel through Borg space, but without encountering much. Then near the end of the episode, Kes throws Voyager 9,500 lightyears closer to home - Janeway notes this is beyond Borg space, and since subsequent episodes show us other alien species with little or no Borg activity, it does appear that they've left Borg space.
- There is there an entire season where Voyager continues its travels (unknown distance travelled), but we know in Hope and Fear that they got another 300 lightyears closer to home (as per Janeways log entry), the void in the episode Night (beginning of next season) spanned a distance of well over 2,500 lightyears (7 of 9 reported that she had scanned space for 2,500 lightyears and not detected any stars) - and at the end, Voyager uses an anomoly to exit the other side.... so taking that into consideration, plus the 2 dozen or so other episodes, we're looking at well over 3,000 lightyears travelled. So 9,500 + 3,000 and we're upto 12,500 lightyears travelled
- Then, in the Voyager episode Timeless, they try to use quantum slipstream technology again, they don't get home, but Janeway notes that they got another 10 years closer to home. Now we can guesstimate just how far they managed to get since in Caretaker, we know they're 70,000 lightyears away from home, and it'd take 75 years to get there at their maximum warp... or an average speed of 933.33 lightyears per year. Now take 10 years at that same average, and we get 9,333.33 lightyears. Add this to our previous figure of 12,500 lightyears and we get 21,833.33 lightyears (at bare minimum, since we don't know fully well how far they travelled in other episodes) travelled from Scorpion, which was on the outer edge of Borg space, to their current location in Dark Frontier.

OKEE, so 21,833 lightyears is our figure, and let's go by what we know to be the outer edge of Borg space (as per The Gift, which would be 9,500 lightyears from their location in Scorpion)... so somewhere between 12,333.33 lightyears and 21,833.33 lightyears (at least), is where the Borg's primary unicomplex is. So going by the 3 minute figure the Delta Flyer went, that means that at most, it would've taken them 24.32 minutes to travel the ENTIRE Star Trek galaxy (100,000 lightyears), at at minimum, 13.74 minutes to travel the ENTIRE Star Trek galaxy...

And just in case it's brought up, some have speculated that the Borgs primary unicomplex could've been closer to Voyagers new location (like somewhere in the distance they covered while in the slipstream). Well there're some major problems with this theory though. First, we know the boundaries of Borg space (from The Gift), and all Borg activity afterwards seems to lie OUTSIDE of their space (ships, hubs...) It stands to reason that the Primary Unicomplex is somewhere in the heart of Borg space which was covered in The Gift. If you think that it was in the area covered in Timeless, then that would mean there's ANOTHER major area of Borg space outside of the massive area covered in The Gift. This doesn't seem to be the case because after The Gift, we saw many other alien spcies, and less Borg... leading to Timeless, then after that we saw other alien species and their space again... no indication that somewhere in that area lies another major chunk of Borg space.

And here's another one based on the dialogue throughout the episode:

Now, in the episode when the Voyager crew are planning to steal a transwarp coil, Torres states:

TORRES: If I could equip our engines with even one coil we could shave about twenty years off this trip.


Then after the Delta Flyer returns at the end of the episode, Voyager uses the coil, and we get this dialogue from Janeway:

Captain's Log, Stardate 52619.2. We got another twenty thousand light years out of the transwarp coil before it gave out. I figure we're a good fifteen years closer to home.


Now work that out, and Voyager missed out on about 6,666.66 lightyears of what they could get from the coil when comparing Torres statement and the actual result after the Flyer used the coil.

Now the Flyer did a round trip from Voyagers location to the Unicomplex back to Voyager - and being a bit more generous and accounding for deviations in course and whatnot, let's make it an even 3,000 lightyears. So this would mean that the Flyer travelled about 3,000 lightyears in exactly 3 minutes.

So for this second calc, it means it would take 100 minutes for to cross the Milky Way at this speed, or 1 hour, 40 minutes. Overall, between the 2 calcs I think it provides a very nice low and high end for Borg transwarp coils.

Thoughts? Has anyone else done any calcs based on other examples for Borg transwarp coils? And any info on hyperdrive for comparisons sake would be welcome.

[Darth Wong]

Borg transwarp conduits are fast, but they are also vulnerable. If I had both, I would definitely take a hyperdrive over a system where a couple of photorp detonations can collapse the conduit and blow you up.

[vivftp]

Borg transwarp conduits are fast, but they are also vulnerable. If I had both, I would definitely take a hyperdrive over a system where a couple of photorp detonations can collapse the conduit and blow you up.

True, although it does have some other advantages, IIRC. Correct me if I'm wrong, but when a ship is using its hyperdrive, it can't alter course unless it drops back into normal space and actually makes a change. As opposed to transwarp where you can alter course in flight.

[Surlethe]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but when a ship is using its hyperdrive, it can't alter course unless it drops back into normal space and actually makes a change. As opposed to transwarp where you can alter course in flight.

Where did you get this idea? AFAIK, hyperdrive is just space travel at tachyonic velocities, rather than baryonic velocities.

[vivftp]

Where did you get this idea? AFAIK, hyperdrive is just space travel at tachyonic velocities, rather than baryonic velocities.

It was a tidbit of info I had heard long ago while speaking with more SW-knowledgable people on SB.com - I don't know the source for it. Would you know any sources which could clarify?

[BlkbrryTheGreat]

Borg transwarp conduits are fast, but they are also vulnerable. If I had both, I would definitely take a hyperdrive over a system where a couple of photorp detonations can collapse the conduit and blow you up.

On a side note, this does provide some evidence for the theory that the Borg were not really serious in their attempt to assimilate the federation.

[vivftp]

Borg transwarp conduits are fast, but they are also vulnerable. If I had both, I would definitely take a hyperdrive over a system where a couple of photorp detonations can collapse the conduit and blow you up.

On a side note, this does provide some evidence for the theory that the Borg were not really serious in their attempt to assimilate the federation.

If you're interested you can take a look at my Borg/Federation theory - it seems to cover all the bases:

http://forum.spacebattles.com/showthrea ... lationship

[Noble Ire]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but when a ship is using its hyperdrive, it can't alter course unless it drops back into normal space and actually makes a change. As opposed to transwarp where you can alter course in flight.

Where did you get this idea? AFAIK, hyperdrive is just space travel at tachyonic velocities, rather than baryonic velocities.

IIRC, I believe that one does have to exit hyperspace to alter course, which is one of the reasons why extended jumps take a longish time to calculate, because the computer has to make each course correction of the trip by itself, in precise sequence.

[Lord Revan]

IIRC you can alter cours on the fly while using hyperdrive (and a powerfull nav computer), but it's not recomended due to the risks involved.

[Surlethe]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but when a ship is using its hyperdrive, it can't alter course unless it drops back into normal space and actually makes a change. As opposed to transwarp where you can alter course in flight.

Where did you get this idea? AFAIK, hyperdrive is just space travel at tachyonic velocities, rather than baryonic velocities.

IIRC, I believe that one does have to exit hyperspace to alter course, which is one of the reasons why extended jumps take a longish time to calculate, because the computer has to make each course correction of the trip by itself, in precise sequence.

I was under the impression the convention of dropping out of hyperspace to alter course was because course recalculation is risky, rather than because of inherent limitations in hyperdrive technology.

[Techno_Union]

True, although it does have some other advantages, IIRC. Correct me if I'm wrong, but when a ship is using its hyperdrive, it can't alter course unless it drops back into normal space and actually makes a change. As opposed to transwarp where you can alter course in flight.

I would assume it depends on how great of an alteration you are making. In DE, a Star Destroyer made a minute course change:

"Griggs! Recalculate out exit from Hyperspace at two degrees from their point of transmission!"

"Yes, sir! The navicomputer says we can make that adjustment, sir."

At the very least small changes are fine.

[vivftp]

Getting back on track though, any calcs or information on the top speed of hyperdrive? IIRC the Falcon and Galaxy Gun projectile are supposed to have the same speed - but for the life of me I can't recall what that speed is.

[Connor MacLeod]

Padme's shuttle in ROTS covered tens of thousands of light years (the distance between Mustafar and Coruscant) in a few hours.

[vivftp]

Padme's shuttle in ROTS covered tens of thousands of light years (the distance between Mustafar and Coruscant) in a few hours.

Have there been any calcs based on this event to your knlowledge?

[Surlethe]

Padme's shuttle in ROTS covered tens of thousands of light years (the distance between Mustafar and Coruscant) in a few hours.

Have there been any calcs based on this event to your knlowledge?

10,000 ly/2 hrs = 5,000 ly/hr.

For a more realistic estimate, we'll take 60,000 ly/20 min. This gives 180,000 ly/hr.

How are those for calculations?

[Perseid]

Padme's shuttle in ROTS covered tens of thousands of light years (the distance between Mustafar and Coruscant) in a few hours.

Have there been any calcs based on this event to your knlowledge?

10,000 ly/2 hrs = 5,000 ly/hr.

For a more realistic estimate, we'll take 60,000 ly/20 min. This gives 180,000 ly/hr.

How are those for calculations?

That definetly seems to be more in line with what we see in RotS.

Add to that the asteroid scene in ESB where Piett comments that the MF could be on the other side of the galaxy by the time Needa has reported to Vader the 180,000 ly/hr figure seems to fit better.

[Noble Ire]

Add to that the asteroid scene in ESB where Piett comments that the MF could be on the other side of the galaxy by the time Needa has reported to Vader the 180,000 ly/hr figure seems to fit better.

I always considered that statement hyperbole, myself. he says that at most a few minutes after the Millennium Falcon disappears. Not even hyperdrive is that fast.

[vivftp]

10,000 ly/2 hrs = 5,000 ly/hr.

For a more realistic estimate, we'll take 60,000 ly/20 min. This gives 180,000 ly/hr.

How are those for calculations?

But how did you arrive at those calcs?

[Mange]

Padme's shuttle in ROTS covered tens of thousands of light years (the distance between Mustafar and Coruscant) in a few hours.

Have there been any calcs based on this event to your knlowledge?

10,000 ly/2 hrs = 5,000 ly/hr.

For a more realistic estimate, we'll take 60,000 ly/20 min. This gives 180,000 ly/hr.

How are those for calculations?

Doesn't the Complete Locations map place Mustafar about 70,000-75,000 ly from Coruscant? With your two-hour estimate that would be:
70,000 ly/2 hrs = 35,000 ly/hr (about 26,600,000 c).

[Mange]

Oh, I'm sorry, that would be 306,600,000 c. I must take another look at that map...

[Mange]

Add to that the asteroid scene in ESB where Piett comments that the MF could be on the other side of the galaxy by the time Needa has reported to Vader the 180,000 ly/hr figure seems to fit better.

I always considered that statement hyperbole, myself. he says that at most a few minutes after the Millennium Falcon disappears. Not even hyperdrive is that fast.

We don't know how much time that passed between the Falcon attaching itself to the Avenger and the briefing.

[Surlethe]

10,000 ly/2 hrs = 5,000 ly/hr.

For a more realistic estimate, we'll take 60,000 ly/20 min. This gives 180,000 ly/hr.

How are those for calculations?

But how did you arrive at those calcs?

The ability to convert words into numbers is a critical life skill.

Padme's shuttle in ROTS covered tens of thousands of light years (the distance between Mustafar and Coruscant) in a few hours.

The 20 minutes figure is high-end speculation on my part; it seems Padme approaches the trip like a drive across town, not like a cross-country long haul. Palpatine's trip to Mustafar supports this supposition; he senses Vader is in trouble, several minutes before the fight ends, and arrives before Vader dies; remember, Vader has serious respiratory injuries, and so Palpatine couldn't have taken hours to get there.

[Surlethe]

Have there been any calcs based on this event to your knlowledge?

10,000 ly/2 hrs = 5,000 ly/hr.

For a more realistic estimate, we'll take 60,000 ly/20 min. This gives 180,000 ly/hr.

How are those for calculations?

Doesn't the Complete Locations map place Mustafar about 70,000-75,000 ly from Coruscant? With your two-hour estimate that would be:
70,000 ly/2 hrs = 35,000 ly/hr (about 26,600,000 c).

I'm not sure; I was guessing the 60,000 ly distance on general principles from a 120k ly-diameter galaxy, with Coruscant at the center, and Mustafar on the edge. I'll go with 70,000-75,000 ligh years, then.

[vivftp]

The ability to convert words into numbers is a critical life skill.

The 20 minutes figure is high-end speculation on my part; it seems Padme approaches the trip like a drive across town, not like a cross-country long haul. Palpatine's trip to Mustafar supports this supposition; he senses Vader is in trouble, several minutes before the fight ends, and arrives before Vader dies; remember, Vader has serious respiratory injuries, and so Palpatine couldn't have taken hours to get there.

Having not seen ROTS yet, that's why I'm asking you about this. I understand it's a guesstimate, but I think you can understand how such a calc is fairly unreliable unless there's more to it than you've posted here.

[Surlethe]

Having not seen ROTS yet, that's why I'm asking you about this. I understand it's a guesstimate, but I think you can understand how such a calc is fairly unreliable unless there's more to it than you've posted here.

If you ask for calcs based on a piece of information provided, you are presuming that information to be true. I provided calculations from Connor MacLeod's statement; if you now intend to say the calculations are unreliable because we're estimating based on the movie, that's dishonest backpeddling. If you have any problems with the heuristic argument I presented, then, by all means, demonstrate the holes in my reasoning, rather than simply stating such gaps exist.