Hyperdrive vs. Borg Transwarp - take 2

[vivftp]

If you ask for calcs based on a piece of information provided, you are presuming that information to be true. I provided calculations from Connor MacLeod's statement; if you now intend to say the calculations are unreliable because we're estimating based on the movie, that's dishonest backpeddling. If you have any problems with the heuristic argument I presented, then, by all means, demonstrate the holes in my reasoning, rather than simply stating such gaps exist.

*sigh* I'm asking how reliable these calcs are since it's based on the guess of how long it took her to travel that distance. Given the information posted thus far it doesn't seem conclusive, but if you say that it's very highly likely that your figure is accurate, then we'll leave it at that.

[Lord Revan]

perhaps but they really can't extend that far as we that Vader/Anakin is dying due to the burns he has (and if he was not a force user would be dead already), the Corusant-Mustafar trip can few hours at best and unless there's info that says otherwise it's safe to assume that events happens as filmed.

[Noble Ire]

perhaps but they really can't extend that far as we that Vader/Anakin is dying due to the burns he has (and if he was not a force user would be dead already), the Corusant-Mustafar trip can few hours at best and unless there's info that says otherwise it's safe to assume that events happens as filmed.

The only definative thing known about the length of the trip was that it took long enough for Anakin to nearly die en-route, even under heavy medical care, and Palpatine's efforts to keep him alive. However, beyond that, nothing is really known.

[vivftp]

perhaps but they really can't extend that far as we that Vader/Anakin is dying due to the burns he has (and if he was not a force user would be dead already), the Corusant-Mustafar trip can few hours at best and unless there's info that says otherwise it's safe to assume that events happens as filmed.

Wait, so we're going for the couple hour figure? Sorry, thought he was using the 20 minute figure he had mentioned earlier.

So then if the couple hour figure falls within a reasonable timeframe, I guess that's what we'll have to use.

So do we have any information on this particular ship and its hyperdrive engines? Is it just a normal ship, or a super fast one? IIRC from the chart that was posted on SB.com long ago there were many different classes of hyperdrive engine, with the Falcon and Galaxy Gun projectile topping the list. Any idea how this one compares to those?

[Surlethe]

If you ask for calcs based on a piece of information provided, you are presuming that information to be true. I provided calculations from Connor MacLeod's statement; if you now intend to say the calculations are unreliable because we're estimating based on the movie, that's dishonest backpeddling. If you have any problems with the heuristic argument I presented, then, by all means, demonstrate the holes in my reasoning, rather than simply stating such gaps exist.

*sigh* I'm asking how reliable these calcs are since it's based on the guess of how long it took her to travel that distance. Given the information posted thus far it doesn't seem conclusive, but if you say that it's very highly likely that your figure is accurate, then we'll leave it at that.

What part of "it's a high-end estimate" did you not understand? We can treat the 20-minute trip as an upper limit in the comparison with Borg technology.

[Surlethe]

perhaps but they really can't extend that far as we that Vader/Anakin is dying due to the burns he has (and if he was not a force user would be dead already), the Corusant-Mustafar trip can few hours at best and unless there's info that says otherwise it's safe to assume that events happens as filmed.

The only definative thing known about the length of the trip was that it took long enough for Anakin to nearly die en-route, even under heavy medical care, and Palpatine's efforts to keep him alive. However, beyond that, nothing is really known.

Wasn't he nearly dead by the time Palpatine arrived?

[Lord Revan]

perhaps but they really can't extend that far as we that Vader/Anakin is dying due to the burns he has (and if he was not a force user would be dead already), the Corusant-Mustafar trip can few hours at best and unless there's info that says otherwise it's safe to assume that events happens as filmed.

The only definative thing known about the length of the trip was that it took long enough for Anakin to nearly die en-route, even under heavy medical care, and Palpatine's efforts to keep him alive. However, beyond that, nothing is really known.

true but knowing Anakin's condition (like I said he was burned that badly that he should have been dead before Palpatine even arrived there), so few hours is the longest realistic time it should take for one way trip from Mustafar to Corusant.

[Noble Ire]

So do we have any information on this particular ship and its hyperdrive engines? Is it just a normal ship, or a super fast one? IIRC from the chart that was posted on SB.com long ago there were many different classes of hyperdrive engine, with the Falcon and Galaxy Gun projectile topping the list. Any idea how this one compares to those?

Palpatine's Theta-class shuttle has a class 1 hyperdrive, top notch military FTL, although somewhat slower than the Falcon. The system on Padme's ship is unknown, but her Ep. 2 vessel has a .9 hyper, faster even than Palpatine's. Her next one would likely have one about as fast.

Wasn't he nearly dead by the time Palpatine arrived?

Yes. The only thing that the notation tells us is that the trip wasn't instanteous or something, which should be obvious at any rate.

[Lord Revan]

Remember this that before Palpatine arrived only the force was keeping Anakin alive and even that was failing (the novelization describes Palpatine having to use his own powers to keep Anakin alive before that med capsule arrived).

[vivftp]

Ok, so we have 1 instance to guage figures for hyperdrive travel. Any other instances? The quote about the MF being anywhere in the galaxy was mentioned - can we go with this quote, or should we be viewing it as hyperbole?

Do the ICSs have any info on the speed of hyperdrive? I've been searching SB.com for that damned chart that was posted but still no luck...

[Lord of the Farce]

Palpatine's Theta-class shuttle has a class 1 hyperdrive, top notch military FTL, although somewhat slower than the Falcon.

I don't have my ROTS:ICS with me at the moment, but doesn't Palpatine's shuttle only have a very short FTL range? That would mean that he would have had to use a larger (and probably slower) ship to ferry the shuttle.

[Perseid]

Ok, so we have 1 instance to guage figures for hyperdrive travel. Any other instances? The quote about the MF being anywhere in the galaxy was mentioned - can we go with this quote, or should we be viewing it as hyperbole?

Depends on how you look at the quote, and what is actually going on.

For instance it can be looked at as only a few minutes having passed between Needa leaving the Avenger and reporting to Vader on the Executor.

On the other hand it can be looked at in terms of "How long would it take to get a shuttle prepped to travel from outside the asteroid field to where ever the Executor is and report to Vader".

To work out the later some assumptions would have to be made (I know to assume makes an ASS out of U and ME but thats all we got).

The first is how long it takes to prep a shuttle for travel, since it's very unlikely they'd have a shuttle ready to fly on two minutes notice. If their anything like modern transports it could take anything from 5 minutes to 20 minutes depending on what has to be done. Lets assume 10 minutes to prep the shuttle, during which time Needa arrives so we don't have to wait for him to get there.

The second is how long the flight from the Avenger to the Executor takes. Given the start point is outside of the asteroid field, and we know the the Executor is outside the field somewhere so they could send a clear transmission to the Emperor. However we don't know the speed of the shuttle or how far the two ships are from one another.
However the speed of the shuttle would probably be about half the speed of a TIE, so we could reasonably say a 10-15 minute flight time.

The final thing is how long Needa's appology and summary execution takes, to make it easy lets say 5 minutes.

So the round trip could have taken a total of 30 minutes.

The Hoth/Anoat/Bespin systems are in the outer rim and if we go with the idea that the distance to jump is the same as the Palpatine run from Coruscant to Mustafa (sp?), which is supposed to be 60,000 ly we get a jump speed of 120,000 ly/ph.

[Surlethe]

Ok, so we have 1 instance to guage figures for hyperdrive travel. Any other instances? The quote about the MF being anywhere in the galaxy was mentioned - can we go with this quote, or should we be viewing it as hyperbole?

Do the ICSs have any info on the speed of hyperdrive? I've been searching SB.com for that damned chart that was posted but still no luck...

Have you seen this webpage? It has observations from all the major OT hyperspace jumps. If you want another specific one, I'd suggest taking a look at the Tatooine-Alderaan jump; all indications are of a very short (few hours, at most) journey from the outer rim to the core.

[apocolypse]

Palpatine's Theta-class shuttle has a class 1 hyperdrive, top notch military FTL, although somewhat slower than the Falcon.

I don't have my ROTS:ICS with me at the moment, but doesn't Palpatine's shuttle only have a very short FTL range? That would mean that he would have had to use a larger (and probably slower) ship to ferry the shuttle.

Palpatine's shuttle only has an effective range of 8,000 LY as per the ICS.

[apocolypse]

Ok, so we have 1 instance to guage figures for hyperdrive travel. Any other instances? The quote about the MF being anywhere in the galaxy was mentioned - can we go with this quote, or should we be viewing it as hyperbole?

Do the ICSs have any info on the speed of hyperdrive? I've been searching SB.com for that damned chart that was posted but still no luck...

Have you seen this webpage? It has observations from all the major OT hyperspace jumps. If you want another specific one, I'd suggest taking a look at the Tatooine-Alderaan jump; all indications are of a very short (few hours, at most) journey from the outer rim to the core.

I recall Han stating that they would reach Alderaan at 0200 hours in ANH. Without knowing when they left, it's hard to make any definitive calcs, but that also supports the thought of a few hours from the core to the rim.

And vivftp, I remember the chart you're talking about, and was actually trying to find it some time ago, but no luck for me either.

[Ender]

Palpatine's Theta-class shuttle has a class 1 hyperdrive, top notch military FTL, although somewhat slower than the Falcon.

I don't have my ROTS:ICS with me at the moment, but doesn't Palpatine's shuttle only have a very short FTL range? That would mean that he would have had to use a larger (and probably slower) ship to ferry the shuttle.

Palpatine's shuttle only has an effective range of 8,000 LY as per the ICS.

Yes. However, Mustafar is considerably farther from Coruscant then 8000 ly. This raised a problem, untl is was pointed out that Palpatine does not travel by shuttle. He uses shuttles to get to and from larger ships that take him where he needs to go. In ROTJ he arrived on the executor, in ROTS that is not a Venator bridge at the end (triangle windows and rounded, the Venator is blacky with square windows). This is further supported by V-wing escorting him despite lacking hyperdrives.

Anyways, Palpatine left while Anakin and Obi wan were still fighting, and was descending to the planet as Obi wan was yelling at Anakin after he struck him down.

[Ender]

Ok, so we have 1 instance to guage figures for hyperdrive travel. Any other instances? The quote about the MF being anywhere in the galaxy was mentioned - can we go with this quote, or should we be viewing it as hyperbole?

Do the ICSs have any info on the speed of hyperdrive? I've been searching SB.com for that damned chart that was posted but still no luck...

Have you seen this webpage? It has observations from all the major OT hyperspace jumps. If you want another specific one, I'd suggest taking a look at the Tatooine-Alderaan jump; all indications are of a very short (few hours, at most) journey from the outer rim to the core.

I recall Han stating that they would reach Alderaan at 0200 hours in ANH. Without knowing when they left, it's hard to make any definitive calcs, but that also supports the thought of a few hours from the core to the rim.

Makes it clear its less ten a day atleast or else Han would have said something like "0200 tomorrow afternoon" or something.

[apocolypse]

I don't have my ROTS:ICS with me at the moment, but doesn't Palpatine's shuttle only have a very short FTL range? That would mean that he would have had to use a larger (and probably slower) ship to ferry the shuttle.

Palpatine's shuttle only has an effective range of 8,000 LY as per the ICS.

Yes. However, Mustafar is considerably farther from Coruscant then 8000 ly. This raised a problem, untl is was pointed out that Palpatine does not travel by shuttle. He uses shuttles to get to and from larger ships that take him where he needs to go. In ROTJ he arrived on the executor, in ROTS that is not a Venator bridge at the end (triangle windows and rounded, the Venator is blacky with square windows). This is further supported by V-wing escorting him despite lacking hyperdrives.

Anyways, Palpatine left while Anakin and Obi wan were still fighting, and was descending to the planet as Obi wan was yelling at Anakin after he struck him down.

Yeah, IIRC there was a discussion here on SDN where one of the members (can't recall the name) discussed the issue with Saxton some time back via email, and I think Saxton clarified it similarly.

The point you brought up with the V-wings is interesting, I hadn't payed attention to that one before.

[NecronLord]

Yeah, IIRC there was a discussion here on SDN where one of the members (can't recall the name) discussed the issue with Saxton some time back via email, and I think Saxton clarified it similarly.

The point you brought up with the V-wings is interesting, I hadn't payed attention to that one before.

This was me. The opinion and authorial intent of Dr. Saxton was that the shuttle boarded a faster vessel:

This is a good query. The hyperdrive range is not an error. As the
nautical name implies, a "shuttle" is not meant for long-range travel.
This kind of ship shuttles people between nearby ports or between a
mothership and a port.

Palpatine's Theta-class shuttle in ROTS has approximately the same
capabilities as his Lambda-class shuttle in ROTJ.

* In ROTJ, he voyaged from Coruscant to the Outer Rim aboard the
Executor. He used his shuttle to transfer from Coruscant to Executor, and
then from Executor to the Death Star 2.

* In ROTS, he used a Theta-class shuttle to transfer from Coruscant to
another large mothership (unseen in the film), which jumped to Mustafar.
He takes the shuttle down to the surface to collect Vader, and returns to
the mothership. This ship then jumps back to Coruscant, etc.

.......

The same is true of the V-wing fighters that escort the shuttle to its
landing in Imperial City. They deploy from the naval vessel. A manned
fighter that size is incapable of hyperdrive, and needs to ride a larger
ship or hyperdrive ring. No amount of expense can avoid the physical
limitation.

The visual dictionary was wrong (confused) on that point. This is
pardonable because all the writers are buffeted by suggestions from many
quarters (some of them ill-informed) and the manuscripts need to be
finalised months before the film is finished!

If (off camera) any of the V-wings _had_ jumped in parallel to Palpatine's
flagship (rather than riding it) then they must have used hyperdrive
rings. This is a redundant point; I believe there wasn't any such jump
filmed (let alone filmed & cut). I specifically sought confirmation from
LF when I was writing ROTS:ICS.

[...]

PS: I was never given any reference images for the appearance of
Palpatine's flagship in ROTS. That subject wasn't ready at the time when
the ROTS:ICS manuscript deadline.

If I were forced to guess, the ship is probably something like what
carried Palpatine, Vader and Tarkin on their inspection of the Separatist
"Great Weapon". The curved bridge interior seen at the end of the film is
inconsistent with all the surfaces of the Venator destroyers (which only
allow for rectangular bridge structures).

Since the exterior of this ship never appears on-screen, I guess that it's
now unlikely to be developed and shown in any medium. If we're
extremely lucky, someone might include late-developed concept art on the
DVD extras. With few constraints, apart from KDY architecture, I imageine
that the ship could be like any of the large multi-mile vessels we've
already seen in the literature. It should be whatever is the Clone Wars
equivalent of the Executor; maybe a Mandator-II.

He loves his Mandators.

[Ender]

Palpatine's shuttle only has an effective range of 8,000 LY as per the ICS.

Yes. However, Mustafar is considerably farther from Coruscant then 8000 ly. This raised a problem, untl is was pointed out that Palpatine does not travel by shuttle. He uses shuttles to get to and from larger ships that take him where he needs to go. In ROTJ he arrived on the executor, in ROTS that is not a Venator bridge at the end (triangle windows and rounded, the Venator is blacky with square windows). This is further supported by V-wing escorting him despite lacking hyperdrives.

Anyways, Palpatine left while Anakin and Obi wan were still fighting, and was descending to the planet as Obi wan was yelling at Anakin after he struck him down.

Yeah, IIRC there was a discussion here on SDN where one of the members (can't recall the name) discussed the issue with Saxton some time back via email, and I think Saxton clarified it similarly.

The point you brought up with the V-wings is interesting, I hadn't payed attention to that one before.

Yeah. Me.

[Ender]

Yeah, IIRC there was a discussion here on SDN where one of the members (can't recall the name) discussed the issue with Saxton some time back via email, and I think Saxton clarified it similarly.

The point you brought up with the V-wings is interesting, I hadn't payed attention to that one before.

This was me. The opinion and authorial intent of Dr. Saxton was that the shuttle boarded a faster vessel:
*snip*
He loves his Mandators.

Hmm, guess we both wrote him then. I wonder if he ever gets tired of answering questions about this stuff.

[NecronLord]

Hmm, guess we both wrote him then. I wonder if he ever gets tired of answering questions about this stuff.

Well, it ain't as if members of SDN are representative of the general population, so it may not happen all that much.

[Ender]

Hmm, guess we both wrote him then. I wonder if he ever gets tired of answering questions about this stuff.

Well, it ain't as if members of SDN are representative of the general population, so it may not happen all that much.

If anything, I would think the opposite ould be the result - SDN members have a better understanding of the details and methodology, so it would result in less repetitive questions as oppossed to a steady stream of "Why do you call them Imperators?"'Why aren't ISDs the biggest ships?""What do you mean Endor died?"

[NecronLord]

If anything, I would think the opposite ould be the result - SDN members have a better understanding of the details and methodology, so it would result in less repetitive questions as oppossed to a steady stream of "Why do you call them Imperators?"'Why aren't ISDs the biggest ships?""What do you mean Endor died?"

Ah, you mean mundane questions. Well, I suspect he probably has a set response for them by now. "Many people have asked this question..."

[Darth Wong]

If anything, I would think the opposite ould be the result - SDN members have a better understanding of the details and methodology, so it would result in less repetitive questions as oppossed to a steady stream of "Why do you call them Imperators?"'Why aren't ISDs the biggest ships?""What do you mean Endor died?"

Ah, you mean mundane questions. Well, I suspect he probably has a set response for them by now. "Many people have asked this question..."

His response to moron questions is the same as mine: he simply ignores them. If I actually answered every retard who E-mailed me and had obviously not read my site, I would never have any time to eat, sleep, or fuck. Do you have any idea how many E-mails I get from imbeciles asking me why I've never discussed the Borg, even though I have? Or how many E-mails I get asking why I don't account for transporters, even though I have? It's the same with my creationist website: I've lost track of the number of idiot E-mails I've gotten spouting the "it's just a theory" argument while making no attempt to address the standing rebuttal on my website for precisely that argument.

There was a time that I tended to answer that sort of mail just because I thought it would be amusing for my Hate Mail page, but the Hate Mail page is quite well populated now so it's not worth my time. Dr. Saxton, on the other hand, has never had a Hate Mail page so he has never bothered suffering fools. When he gets stupid questions he just deletes them, which is my current policy as well.