"The Swarm War" Talkback (Spoilers)

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » 2005-12-28 01:21am

The Chiss-Killik border war is threatening to engulf the entire galaxy -- raising the awful specter of the Killik sweeping across space to absorb all living creatures into a single hive mind. The only hope for peace lies with the Jedi -- who must not only end the bloodshed between two fierce enemies but also combat the insidious evil spread by the elusive Dark Nest and its unseen queen. Leia's Jedi skills will be put to the ultimate test in the coming life-and-death battle. As for Luke, he will have to prove, in a lightning display of Force strength and swordplay, that he is -- beyond a shadow of a doubt -- the greatest Jedi Master in the galaxy.

As the title states, being your talkback on the final post-NJO novel set before the upcoming Legacy of the Force series.

Crom · Post by **Crom** » 2005-12-28 04:49am

Who the hell doubts that Luke is the greatest? Can't they count how many times he defeated Sidious?

LordShaithis · Post by **LordShaithis** » 2005-12-28 05:25am

Hive mind? WTF? Sounds stupid.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2005-12-28 07:40am

so far -

Mention of a Chiss planet busting bomb the size of a whale (estimate yield - 100 TT)

Corran being called pompous by Luke.

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2005-12-28 08:18am

The book sucks.

We once again have this Dark Jedi who has wanktastic powers no other Jedi can dream of, like the ability to completely vanish from sight if the person confronting them has any doubt in their mind.

We have the Chiss engaging in an insane ground campaign with pathetic vehicle and infantry support on a jungle planet against countless insects of various kinds. Oh yes and despite having total space superiority, they still get the remains of their forces 'besieged' onto an island where primitive CATAPULTS are attacking them.

The Chiss's idea of dropping a bomb onto ground level is to use extremely weakly shielded craft to drop the bombs, using clawcraft as mobile shields which ram Proton Torpedoes. Rather then doing something smart like dropping a couple of Star Destroyers down to ground level and deploying the weapons by simply pushing them out a hanger bay (these are bioweapons BTW).

Jag Fell is understandably pissed at Jania and Zekk.

Jania and Zekk are insect lovers who have been reprogrammed by the Colony and should have been placed in a medical ward strapped into Yalassamri. Instead Luke happily lets them go fight for the insects.

The Jedi are stupid as hell in every respect, did I mention that?

Jesus Pealleon just keeps on going. Granted he retired and only came to the post of CIC of the GFFA's Navy because it was an emergency, but he still keeps going...

These insects are sill somehow portrayed as a grave threat to the Galaxy, on the scale of an all out Galactic war. Because they 'bread fast', ignoring the fact that they are blockaded and have just about nothing in real FTL warships or transports.

The GFFA finally scrapes together a large enough fleet to deal with the problem...and they don't deal with the problem. All they needed to do was to vaporize one ship, killing both key players on the Insect side...but noooo.

Mara and the rest of the Jedi are still completely unable to put two and two together and realize Jacen is the father of the Queen Mothers baby.

Private companies sell military grade capital hardware to anyone without any federal oversight.

Lando is apparently selling craploads of stuff to the Government, he seriously is rich now.

High end YVH variant droids are space capable with individual thruster packs and built in laser cannons, explosives and other goodies. Though somehow they still can be taken down by the relatively weak bugs, though not easily. Luke plus 40 platoons of them took back an Ackbar class Star Destroyer, in an assault choreographed by this new ‘Super Bothen’ Admiral who is implied to be as good as Thrawn for some reason.

The Chiss apparently have never heard of the idea of a Base Delta Zero. A few dozen of which would have ended the bug threat quite quickly.

A 'plot' to overthrow the 'bug' species of the Galaxy by the Killiks actually had a chance to succeed with mear thousands of warriors sent to each target.

Theyfera, Bacta producing planet, has been taken by the Killiks, though post book it should be taken back easily enough. The fleet though actually started to get Bacta shortages very very quickly, which suggests that amazingly, the GFFA Navy doesn't stockpile large amounts of the stuff. Also no mention made of the (at the time of 'The Bacta War) colonies that produce Bacta in other star systems.

Jacen is a crazy man, seriously. He believes in no morality, believes in nothing but what HE thinks is right, which might change at any point on the spot. He is willing to throw entire species into war because of his daughter, even when there is no clear threat to her from any event.

Seriously, this book is horrible. As is the series. I think if they had tried to narrow the focus down to something OTHER then 'OMG, the Galaxy is doomed again', it could have worked. If they painted it as a Chiss vs Inscet thing, but the Galaxy at large not being under threat, it might have worked. But the minimalism and complete incompetence in the GFFA here just pisses me off. It’s like the author wanted to have his own mini NJO with three books.

The only thing that was welcome was Artoo playing back the scenes from ROTS which finally let Luke and (presumably at a later point when there is time) Leia watch their Mother and Anikin, his fall and her death (and their birth for that matter).

Post by **Vympel** » 2005-12-28 08:22am

You know the EU has been going too long after RotJ when we're talking about Jacen's children.

How old is Luke now, anyway? Qui-Gon's age?

Lex · Post by **Lex** » 2005-12-28 12:30pm

Chris' review hit the nail on the head... the whole serie sucks ass

Shroom Man 777 · Post by **Shroom Man 777** » 2005-12-28 12:36pm

Weren't the Vong also b10t3k bullshitters?

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-12-28 12:40pm

Chris OFarrell wrote:We once again have this Dark Jedi who has wanktastic powers no other Jedi can dream of, like the ability to completely vanish from sight if the person confronting them has any doubt in their mind.

Oi. A Padawan has invisibility powers, damnit.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2005-12-28 03:55pm

And once again, no EU authors can credibly construct suspense and a conflict, and has no vision for the technology or scale of the galaxy. Color me surprised.

white_rabbit · Post by **white_rabbit** » 2005-12-28 06:05pm

Is Jacen still Teh Unified theory of Force dude ?

I mean, has anyone else achieved enlightenment,

Particularly Luke, please tell me luke hasn't turned to the Gay side of the force.

Crossroads Inc. · Post by **Crossroads Inc.** » 2005-12-28 06:12pm

white_rabbit wrote:Particularly Luke, please tell me luke hasn't turned to the Gay side of the force.

Dude, I would so pay to see a Gay side of the force

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2005-12-28 06:12pm

white_rabbit wrote:Is Jacen still Teh Unified theory of Force dude ?

I mean, has anyone else achieved enlightenment,

Particularly Luke, please tell me luke hasn't turned to the Gay side of the force.

Explicitly no. Luke in fact in this book rejects Jacens 'grey' view of the Force.

Old Plympto · Post by **Old Plympto** » 2005-12-28 07:15pm

Chris OFarrell wrote:The only thing that was welcome was Artoo playing back the scenes from ROTS which finally let Luke and (presumably at a later point when there is time) Leia watch their Mother and Anikin, his fall and her death (and their birth for that matter).

I hope it wasn't a bootleg copy of the DVD.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2005-12-28 07:31pm

Aside from RL reasons, has it ever been explained why R2 never showed this footage to Luke and Leia before now? It's been, what, 30 years since Vader/Anakin died?

DesertFly · Post by **DesertFly** » 2005-12-28 08:09pm

That's one thing that is explicitly explained in the books. R2 has been modified to keep that data encrypted and inaccesible. It doesn't explain by whom in the first book, but my money's on Obi-Wan, or possibly some random tech of Bail Organa's. It probably says later.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2005-12-28 09:59pm

Chris OFarrell wrote:Jania and Zekk are insect lovers who have been reprogrammed by the Colony and should have been placed in a medical ward strapped into Yalassamri. Instead Luke happily lets them go fight for the insects.

Tell me more, if you don't mind.

These insects are sill somehow portrayed as a grave threat to the Galaxy, on the scale of an all out Galactic war. Because they 'bread fast', ignoring the fact that they are blockaded and have just about nothing in real FTL warships or transports.

The concept of non-threats being made threats (while real threats are dealt with in a lame deux ex maschina fashion) is nothing new, but this does sound like a new low.

The GFFA finally scrapes together a large enough fleet to deal with the problem...and they don't deal with the problem. All they needed to do was to vaporize one ship, killing both key players on the Insect side...but noooo.

I subscribe. Tell me more.

Lando is apparently selling craploads of stuff to the Government, he seriously is rich now.

'bout time.

in an assault choreographed by this new ‘Super Bothen’ Admiral who is implied to be as good as Thrawn for some reason.

I know that part. He beat a Thrawn simulator. Let me barf at the concept.

Jacen is a crazy man, seriously. He believes in no morality, believes in nothing but what HE thinks is right, which might change at any point on the spot. He is willing to throw entire species into war because of his daughter, even when there is no clear threat to her from any event.

You should have caught on to this since his stupid stunts with Centerpoint I've been hearing about in the NJO. But tell me more.

LongVin · Post by **LongVin** » 2005-12-29 02:13am

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:
Jacen is a crazy man, seriously. He believes in no morality, believes in nothing but what HE thinks is right, which might change at any point on the spot. He is willing to throw entire species into war because of his daughter, even when there is no clear threat to her from any event.
You should have caught on to this since his stupid stunts with Centerpoint I've been hearing about in the NJO. But tell me more.

Perhaps they are grooming Jacen to be the new "super evil Sith guy" and then force Luke to make a difficult decision about whether he should kill him or not. And as Luke is devoting all this time trying to solve the moral dillemia Jacen is flying across the Galaxy killing billions while destroying worlds.

Or either that they will run with the idea of an immoral Jacen for a few more books until an EU author gets tired of the idea and through a plot device he instantly sees the light and becomes one again with the Jedi Order.

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2005-12-29 07:29am

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:
Chris OFarrell wrote:Jania and Zekk are insect lovers who have been reprogrammed by the Colony and should have been placed in a medical ward strapped into Yalassamri. Instead Luke happily lets them go fight for the insects.
Tell me more, if you don't mind.

Basicly the Chiss are trying to wipe out the Kiliks, because the colony is trying its best to be a pain in the ass to everyone. The Jedi are divided into two real groupings at this point. One group who thinks they should only listen to the Force and let it guide them, regardless of who it might annoy. And another group who think they must remain loyal to the Galactic Federation of Free Alliences and work with them.

It's an outgrowth of the new policy Luke addopted at the end of "The Unifying Force" which lets the Jedi all find their own way. Luke sends a Force Call that calls all Jedi back to deal with a growing rift between the factions (led by certian Jedi Masters) and essentialy asserts his authority again as the leader of the Jedi, almost all the Jedi follow him in this. The few who don't leave peacefuly because they can't put being a Jedi first in their lives for whatever reason.

But Jania and Zekk refuse to return at this point, which surprises Luke somewhat. In previous books it also is made clear they had been reprogramed by the colony, they think as one person and act more insect them human most of the time. As Jedi, they are also force compelled by the colonly leader, Rayner now RaynerThull, who uses the entire force potentional of the colonly to effectivly control said Jedi.

Through the book they are effectivly the Generals of Rayner, fighting his war against the Chiss. Often having their own thoughts deleated and Rayners put in.

These insects are sill somehow portrayed as a grave threat to the Galaxy, on the scale of an all out Galactic war. Because they 'bread fast', ignoring the fact that they are blockaded and have just about nothing in real FTL warships or transports.
The concept of non-threats being made threats (while real threats are dealt with in a lame deux ex maschina fashion) is nothing new, but this does sound like a new low.

Well in Book 2, eight SSD sized asteriods half heartedly jurry rigged with Turbolasers and ion / hyperdrive systems were the main fleet, along with a Lancer and swarms of primitive and VERY weak psudo starfighters. An varent of an Imperial star destroyer an an Ackbar Star Destroyer are capable enough of infilicting notable damage on these 'ships'.

Yet it would take 'weeks' for the GFFA to get a fleet big enough to break this fleet to the area. Even though according to the EARLIER book, the ENTIRE FIFTH FLEET had already been deployed to the area. This little tibit is quietly forgotten by the bloody author!

But 99% of the colony is on planets. A swift campaign of BDZ's and the Kilik threat would be almost entirely eliminated...but thats too easy. Sending in masses of infintry poorly backed up with support weapons is CLEARLY the best way to deal with them.

The GFFA finally scrapes together a large enough fleet to deal with the problem...and they don't deal with the problem. All they needed to do was to vaporize one ship, killing both key players on the Insect side...but noooo.
I subscribe. Tell me more.

The story is that the Colonly has a concious mind that directs its actions (represtend in RaynerThull who is part Rayner part leader of the group mind) and an unconcious mind who is personified in the Dark Jedi Lomi whateverhernameis. The "unconcious" mind (directed by a very concious Dark Jedi, whatever) then somehow is able to control Rayner.

If you kill Rayner and Lomi, the Kiliks will loose their current behavour and turn back into the harmless and mindless insects they were before. Both of those people were on an Ackbar class Star Destroyer Rayner had captured. He has some crazy Force power that lets him push a broadside of turbolasers from a single enemy Star Destroyer away, somehow I dobut an entire fleet firing on him would be impressed.

If the GFFA's had simply vaporised that ship, they would have solved the problem.

Now to be fair, I don't think Luke was sure the Dark Jedi was on the ship at the time, only going in himself could he see what was going on.

Lando is apparently selling craploads of stuff to the Government, he seriously is rich now.
'bout time.

in an assault choreographed by this new ‘Super Bothen’ Admiral who is implied to be as good as Thrawn for some reason.
I know that part. He beat a Thrawn simulator. Let me barf at the concept.

No, its also in this new book. Basicly when Luke starts his attack on the NRS Ackbar, the Star Destroyer Rayner captured, every move this Jedi and the Dark Jedi make has already been anticipated and already countered as Luke leads his boarding team in close. Up until a Force Wave breaks appart several of the assault shuttles. But even then, this Admiral has anticipated something like it, because Luke is in a Zero-G combat suit and the YVH droids are all Zero-G combat models.

Even when the Dark Jedi trys to attack a hospital ship Mara was supposed to be on, to make Luke dobut himself and thus let her become invisable, this Admiral anticipated it happening and said Hospital ship was completly empty the entire time.

Seriously. The entire thing reaks of 'OMG, look, this guy is even better then Thrawn! You'll see more of him, don't worry.

Then like Trek Technology, for reasons of plot, he will fail and the entire thing will come crashing down, despite what they said earlier.

You should have caught on to this since his stupid stunts with Centerpoint I've been hearing about in the NJO. But tell me more.

He is completly amoral. At one point he is encouraging Luke to use his anger to gain power before he faces the Dark Jedi. At another, he is admiring Vader for having a clear goal and the power to make it happen (read take over the Galaxy). He also still refuses to tell Luke and Mara the truth about what he did to THEIR Son, including wiping and altering his memories.

Oh and his is clearly being set up a the next uber Jedi, learning all his new 1337 force powers that make him so amazingly powerful apparently, not to mention HE is constently lecturing LUKE and co.

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2005-12-29 07:35am

Though I will say this for Luke. He tells Jacen to shove it and that Vegree was full of BS. Politely of course.

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2005-12-29 10:20am

Some of this sounds like right out from DarkEmpire.

Burak Gazan · Post by **Burak Gazan** » 2005-12-29 12:32pm

Sounds like it's a good thing I never bothered to read this, it'd be bad for the blood pressure

Couple thoughts though:

But 99% of the colony is on planets. A swift campaign of BDZ's and the Kilik threat would be almost entirely eliminated...but thats too easy. Sending in masses of infintry poorly backed up with support weapons is CLEARLY the best way to deal with them.

OK, so the author is fan of the Starship Troopers movie, huh? Oy!

And to clarify, Jacen did what to who? Luke Skywalker's son, he messed with, whatever?

OK, there's yet another reason why jedi arent supposed to have attachments. If someone did that to my kid, I'd re-invent the fucking Death Star to hunt them down , and if I had to rubble a thousand worlds, fuck you very much, I WOULD

That said, Jacen needs to die. In pieces. As in , more than one. Even Obi-Wan Kenobi, the ultimate jedi, after trying to convince his best friend to turn away from the darkness saw only one solution:
"I will do what I must"
And he did.
If anyone is writing Skywalker out there, it's very simple: WHAT WOULD OBI-WAN DO?

Regretably, that probably wont happen

Master of Cards · Post by **Master of Cards** » 2005-12-29 03:14pm

Burak Gazan wrote: If anyone is writing Skywalker out there, it's very simple: WHAT WOULD OBI-WAN DO?

sigged

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » 2005-12-29 05:26pm

I've only briefly skimmed the novel; I'm re-reading The Joiner King and The Unseen Queen just to refresh myself. So far, though, the best part is Luke's reaction to Artoo's Mustafar footage...

Burak Gazan · Post by **Burak Gazan** » 2005-12-29 05:31pm

What's that like JME2? A large Holy Crap

, on seeing just how badass both his old man and Obi-Wan really were, back in the day?