Would the ISA stand a chance vs the Borg?

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-07-25 11:40pm

What time period is this?

A post ACTA ISA would stand a fighting chance. The Victorys should be able to deliver enough firepower to take out a cube. Most of the Borg's defensive ability is based around the frequency adaption tricks; raw firepower will overwhelm the Borg. B5 ships for the most part rely on non-phase coherent weapons with thier ability to adapt severly hampered the borg will be much weaker than they are in the trek-verse. The ISA will lose ships, heavily. The borg have enough firepower but it's not the huge margin trekkies would claim. It'll come down to tactical ability and frankly the borg are severly lacking in that area. I'd give it to the ISA by a narrow margin.

Still, pre-ACTA the ISA simply lacks the big gun warships to take a cube down before it cuts them to pieces. No fancy adaptation or not, the ISA doesn't have to kind of heavy warships to take down a cube. If they could call up sharlins or warocks it might be enough but it's not too likely. I'd give it to the Borg by a comfortable margin.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-26 01:20am

On the other hand, the Borg seems really inconsistent with what it can adapt to. Perhaps fusion based weapons would have a chance at knocking them out?

I think you're right, though. At the very least, pre-Call to Arms B5 would stand no chance. I don't even think they could do it with Sharlins and Warlocks. Only the Victories have firepower great enough to even stand a chance, and there are not many of those. I still think this goes to the Borg.

Graeme Dice · Post by **Graeme Dice** » 2002-07-26 01:25am

Let me inform you of something. There is not a single solitary race in all of B5 that has the power generation capability to even begin to seriously match anything in either Star Trek or Star Wars. Two megatons is orders of magnitude more powerful than Minbari weapons, 500 megatons is orders of magnitude more powerful than Vorlon weapons. That's canon information that can only be argued with by ignoring the evidence presented in the series.

Parker · Post by **Parker** » 2002-07-26 01:26am

So far, the only weapons the Borg haven't been able to adapt to were the transphasic torpedos in 'Endgame', and even with those it was stated it was only a short matter of time before they became useless against them. Some may argue that, say, turboblasters are stronger than phasers... whatever. I don't believe that turboblasters use an exotic form of energy that are impossible to adapt to.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-26 01:31am

Parker wrote:So far, the only weapons the Borg haven't been able to adapt to were the transphasic torpedos in 'Endgame', and even with those it was stated it was only a short matter of time before they became useless against them. Some may argue that, say, turboblasters are stronger than phasers... whatever. I don't believe that turboblasters use an exotic form of energy that are impossible to adapt to.

But, can the Borg adapt if there are no Borg? An HTL shot would destroy a cube in one shot.

Turbolasers are not necessarily more powerful than phasers, but the observed effects of turbolasers, and official evidence indicates that their firepower is much greater. For all we know, though, given the same power source, phasers might have the same firepower, or even greater. The difference is that nothing in ST has anywhere NEAR the power required to stop an HTL shot, or to return such fire. No race in ST or B5 would have a chance.

We are back to my original point, which is that no race in B5 has the firepower to go up against the Borg. That is unfortunate, because many races in B5 are REALLY cool, much cooler than the Borg, but they would lose because they cannot match firepower on that magnitude.

Parker · Post by **Parker** » 2002-07-26 01:49am

Agreed. 'Tis a shame...

Though what do you mean 'can the Borg adapt if there are no Borg'? Do you mean one cube all alone with no back up? If so, that's how the borg have always shown up. In fact, the only time there was ever more than one cube on a planetary or fleet assualt was in 'Dark Frontier'. All other times it's been one Cube far from Borg space and the rest of the collective, and they never showed any trouble adapting to whatever was thrown at them... well... besides 8472, but that's another topic

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2002-07-26 02:47am

"Some may argue that, say, turboblasters are stronger than phasers... whatever. I don't believe that turboblasters use an exotic form of energy that are impossible to adapt to."

You've got it backwards. Why do you think phasers and disruptors can be adapted against so successfully? Because they use an exotic form of energy which is possible to adapt to.

Mechwolf · Post by **Mechwolf** » 2002-07-26 04:16am

The ISA would win for 2 reasons.

1. Borg shields only work against single frequency energy weapons. Particle, Pulse, Ion(non-SW), & plasma weapons would NOT be affected by borg shields, just as ST lasers would not be. Too many frequencies for there shields to adapt. Also, the Borg are suseptable to matter weapons such as missiles, torpedos, & slug-throwers. Many member-races of the ISA arm their ships with railguns &, in an emergency that the Borg would present, mass-drivers.

2. The jump engine is a potential weapon. If you know where a Borg cube is, all you have to to is open a jump point on them, boom, no more cube.

Other things to consider...

The Narn have the ability to easily produce 300,000 megaton nukes. The Narn are members of the ISA. The ISA have the ability to produce 300,000 megaton nukes.

Earth Alliance
Omega-class Destroyer is 1717 meters long
Hyperion cruiser is 1025 m
Nova Dreadnought is 1502 m
Warlock-class destroyer is 1992

Interstellar Alliance
Victory-class destroyer is 2000 m
Whitestar is 475 m

Minbari Federation
Sharlin cruiser is 1600 m

Borg cube is 3000 m cubed

Now if you want to get into whether the Vorlons, Shadows, or any other 1st ones were to go againts the Borg...the borg would lose faster then I can say Lorien. If you truly believe that the Borg could win against any of the 1st ones or the ISA, then you haven't watched B5 or ST very closely.

Graeme Dice · Post by **Graeme Dice** » 2002-07-26 09:23am

Mechwolf wrote:The Narn have the ability to easily produce 300,000 megaton nukes. The Narn are members of the ISA. The ISA have the ability to produce 300,000 megaton nukes.

Earth Alliance
Omega-class Destroyer is 1717 meters long
Hyperion cruiser is 1025 m
Nova Dreadnought is 1502 m
Warlock-class destroyer is 1992

Interstellar Alliance
Victory-class destroyer is 2000 m
Whitestar is 475 m

Minbari Federation
Sharlin cruiser is 1600 m

Borg cube is 3000 m cubed
Yor values for ship lengths do not match what is seen on the show.

Now if you want to get into whether the Vorlons, Shadows, or any other 1st ones were to go againts the Borg...the borg would lose faster then I can say Lorien. If you truly believe that the Borg could win against any of the 1st ones or the ISA, then you haven't watched B5 or ST very closely.

Yes, I have watched it extremely closely. The first ones ships have weaponry are no more than 10-20 times more powerful than those of the younger races. Borg weaponry is 10-20 times more powerful than that of the first ones.

Dead on Arrival · Post by **Dead on Arrival** » 2002-07-26 04:02pm

Two megatons is orders of magnitude more powerful than Minbari weapons,

In regards to the Black Star and the 2 MT nuclear devices, which is what I am assuming you are basing your statement upon, I must point out that the initial x-/gamma rays released did not produce any discernible damage upon the Black Star. Between the time of detonation and the next frame of film there is no visible change in the Black Star. Given the 2-3 km distance between the Black Star and the point of detonation, the released x-/gamma rays would impact and be absorbed by the hull in 1e-5 seconds. It is not until a full second after the initial time of detonation that the Black Star is impacted by a 'shockwave', which is likely composed of the asteroid upon which the nuclear device was placed. When we see the Black Star we then see that the bulk of the hull is mostly intact, with the notable exception of one of the weapon fins, part of the adjacent fin, and what looks to be like an impact crater upon the main body. The next nuclear device produces the same effect, but instead this time after the resulting shockwave passes the Black Star it explodes from within.

My theory: Debris from the first shockwave was able to enter a charged weapon port and cause a catastrophic failure resulting in the loss of the weapon fin and adjacent fin. With a good size chunk of the facing structure now exposed to outer space, the material making up the second shockwave was able to impact upon more vulnerable internal systems. This, coupled with the damage from the explosion of the charged weapon fin, was enough to cause the primary reactor(s) to fail causing the observed explosion from within. Given the observed nature of the event, this does not provide any limits upon Minbari or other race energy weapons.

500 megatons is orders of magnitude more powerful than Vorlon weapons.

The first detonation in 'Into the Fire' also produced the same delayed shockwave effect, and it wasn't until said shockwave impacted that there was visible change in the course or structure of the Shadow vessels in question. A Vorlon 'fighter' flies within close proximity of the second detonation, yet emerges intact. The third detonation goes off in front of a Shadow vessel, yet no damage/change is observed at all. As with the Black Star, this scene does not establish any limits on Vorlon weapon output.

That's canon information that can only be argued with by ignoring the evidence presented in the series.

I just did. By all means show me why I am wrong and you are right.

seanrobertson · Post by **seanrobertson** » 2002-07-26 05:03pm

I agree that the Black Star's destruction isn't quite that straightforward,
Don. I'm not real big on the "debris hit the open gunports" idea given
the ship's orientation during the first explosion.

I think the EMP from the bomb best explains why the ship suffered such extreme damage. That's not to say that the asteroid impacts didn't have an effect; rather, it's simply that I think without the EMP, that debris wouldn't have been a significant factor. You'll note that, following the 1st blast, a large gash appears on the starboard fin--a rather unnatural-looking, straight-lined gash that gets wider as it stretches dorsal and ventralward, something consistent with an internal explosion. The line of damage follows directly from the starboard cannons, which we know were charging up. It'd appear that the feeds to those weapons blew out, perhaps in part because they were charging power.

Then the second bomb goes off, and we see the aft-most fin blowing
up inside-out. We know that fin contains at least one reactor (a'la
the Trigati), perhaps made unstable by the first bomb's EMP/
resulting effects on the BS's power grid.

Also, I know of no reason that Minbari weapons couldn't be into the
megaton range. Simply because their ships suffer ill effects from
electromagnetic pulses released by small megaton devices doesn't
mean they can't put out that much power themselves. That's like
saying a battleship couldn't put out more firepower than a single
torpedo simply because a submarine sinks the BB with a clean hit.

Of course, I also don't think the Minbari weapons will outclass
what the Borg use. I think they're damn close, really. But not
enough to make any kind of difference in a *real* war, assuming
the Borg have the intelligence to wage as much.

500 megatons is orders of magnitude more powerful than Vorlon weapons.

The first detonation in 'Into the Fire' also produced the same delayed shockwave effect, and it wasn't until said shockwave impacted that there was visible change in the course or structure of the Shadow vessels in question.

Can't agree here. As soon as the bomb went off, all Shadow ships
in that vicinity were either pulverized or thrown off course.

A Vorlon 'fighter' flies within close proximity of the second detonation, yet emerges intact.

"Close proximity" is pretty vague, though. Given that the blasts
could engulf Shadow spiders, I doubt the *one* Vorlon fighter we
see flying on after the blast was that close. It wasn't even obscured
by the flash of the blast...and, of course, with its insignificant frontal
area, the amount of energy it could absorb at a reasonable distance
(several hundred meters, IMO) wouldn't amount to much.

The third detonation goes off in front of a Shadow vessel, yet no damage/change is observed at all. As with the Black Star, this scene does not establish any limits on Vorlon weapon output.

Again, it wasn't even NEAR as close as the ship in the first blast was.
It definitely went off "in front" of the spider, but then again, my computer
screen can be in front of me when I'm standing a mile away (assuming
I'm standing in the right direction). I know what you mean, but a scaling
of these things is crucial.

That's canon information that can only be argued with by ignoring the evidence presented in the series.

I just did. By all means show me why I am wrong and you are right.

Vorlon fighters and those transports *do* take time to kill a Spider.
They're also firing far more intense weapons, focusing a greater amount
of energy per square meter than proximity nukes could deliver. To assume
that they equal a significant fraction of those nukes' total E release is
generous; otherwise, even the lowly transport should be able to blow
a Spider away almost instantly (vs. the 7 or so sec. firing time we see,
which doesn't actually pulverize the Spider).

Vorlon battleships are undoubtedly more powerful, but by how many
orders of magnitude? One? Two, maybe? So their weapons might extend into the low gigaton-range if that...given what Shadow ships tried to
do to the Narn base in Quadrant 47 (IIRC), I think that's more than
fair.

Sean
Analyst http://www.babtech-onthe.net/

seanrobertson · Post by **seanrobertson** » 2002-07-26 05:15pm

Sean, do you have selective amnesia or something? How many times do we have to point out the mass of Babylon 5 is SIGNIFICANTLY greater than the 2.5 million metric ton figure? JMS has stated that the total mass of the station is equivalent to that of a small moon. If B5 is 200 meters (an underestimate) in radius and 8 kms in length, using the 2.5 million metric ton figure you would get an average density of 2.49 kg/m^3.

Small moon? Argh. JMS really frustrates me with his vaguerisms.

And yes, I know that the figure is odd. But it was also stated in the
first season of the show's credits, over and over again. So it's
canon, even if it does refer to the station's "empty shell."

Another number. If the outer hull was 20cm in thickness with an average density of 2,000 kg/m^3 (less dense then Aluminum) it would mass ~4 million metric tons. Please stop spreading the 2.5 million metric ton number, it makes zero sense...unless you want to believe the EA has materials with enormous structural strength that mass less than air.

Nah, nothing *that* exotic

It's simply one of those pesky things
that tags along with the show...of course, since I was saying the Borg
would whip the ISA, I didn't really want to explain how goofy that figure
was.

As for those 3 thousand Centauri ships, weren't they produced over
a period of about two decades?

Sean
Analyst http://www.babtech-onthe.net/

Dead on Arrival · Post by **Dead on Arrival** » 2002-07-26 05:31pm

Small moon? Argh. JMS really frustrates me with his vaguerisms.

I can provide the whole quote if you like. Was in reference to a scene where a released body was shown to stay within close proximity of the station instead of flying off into space.

And yes, I know that the figure is odd. But it was also stated in the
first season of the show's credits, over and over again. So it's
canon, even if it does refer to the station's "empty shell."

I know, one of the more frustrating things about it. Doing the math quick like I did, shows why that is just plain silly...

Nah, nothing *that* exotic It's simply one of those pesky things
that tags along with the show...of course, since I was saying the Borg
would whip the ISA, I didn't really want to explain how goofy that figure
was.

Agreed, and you will notice I make no objection to the Borg being more than capable of defeating the ISA. Just as I would state the Borg is more than enough to defeat the UFP...

As for those 3 thousand Centauri ships, weren't they produced over
a period of about two decades?

I think it was closer to 15 years, built in secret at a single facility.

seanrobertson · Post by **seanrobertson** » 2002-07-26 05:35pm

The ISA would win for 2 reasons.
1. Borg shields only work against single frequency energy weapons. Particle, Pulse, Ion(non-SW), & plasma weapons would NOT be affected by borg shields,

Phasers deliver nadions through a stream of plasma (VGR "Flashback"),
yet the Borg adapt to phasers. Whoops.

You're also ignoring the deflector discharge in "BOBW," that which
covered the "upper-EM band." Sounds like more than one frequency
to me.

just as ST lasers would not be. Too many frequencies for there shields to adapt.

"Adapt" doesn't always mean simply adjusting shields to a specific
frequency. It can mean reconfiguring shields to absorb rather
than deflect ("Dark Frontier"). It can mean focusing the protection
offered by several axes' shield grids to a single axis ("Endgame").
It even entails different kinds of shielding methods altogether,
from varying the size of the protective shields ("Dark Frontier" again)
to emitting altogether dissimilar shield methods; e.g., the permeable
EM field used in "BOBW" vs. the conventional shields used by
the tactical cube in "Unimatrix Zero."

Also, the Borg are suseptable to matter weapons such as missiles, torpedos, & slug-throwers.

Odd that photon torpedos didn't simply blow through shields in "Q Who?"
then.

Many member-races of the ISA arm their ships with railguns &, in an emergency that the Borg would present, mass-drivers.

Oh? I know of no canon descriptions of anything remotely like that,
not that it'd make a difference. You still have to overwhelm the Borg
shield with energy. Simply concluding that the Borg can't stop any
kind of kinetic impact based on drones getting shot in "FC" is
a hasty generalization of THE highest order.

2. The jump engine is a potential weapon. If you know where a Borg cube is, all you have to to is open a jump point on them, boom, no more cube.

Assuming you're not dead by then. The Borg have longer-ranged
weapons than any ISA ship known.

Other things to consider...

The Narn have the ability to easily produce 300,000 megaton nukes. The Narn are members of the ISA. The ISA have the ability to produce 300,000 megaton nukes.

Sound logic, with a gigantic problem in your first premise. 300 gigaton
nuclear devices were NEVER built by the Narn. G'Kar offered 40-some
odd 500-600 megaton devices to the Army of Light. Had he been capable
of coming up with something almost a THOUSAND times more powerful,
I imagine Ivanova would've either laughed in his face at the offer and/or
kicked him in the Narn equivalent of the nuts.

Besides, there's a huge continuity problem with however you derived
this huge figure: what we know can blow B5 to smithereens. Remember
the 500 gigaton probe, thought capable of *vaporizing* B5?

Yes, of course you remember

Now, do you also remember when a Centauri battlecruiser attacked
B5? Or how about when the Shadows sent a small fleet to attack
B5, disengaging only at the last minute?

The conflict should be rather obvious. Shadows outgun all young races, probably by an order of magnitude. Yet they had to sent multiple
ships to attack B5 when a single Narn ship, armed with one huge
nuke, could do the job in a blink of an eye?

...

Get real.

Earth Alliance
Omega-class Destroyer is 1717 meters long
Hyperion cruiser is 1025 m
Nova Dreadnought is 1502 m
Warlock-class destroyer is 1992

Interstellar Alliance
Victory-class destroyer is 2000 m
Whitestar is 475 m

WSs are more like 250m long. As for the others...who cares? They
don't even BEGIN to compare to the size of a Borg cube. Think beyond
*length* for a minute and consider VOLUME. A 400m-wide sphere is
FAR bigger than a 100 mile-long pencil.

Minbari Federation
Sharlin cruiser is 1600 m

Borg cube is 3000 m cubed

28 cubic kilometers. Also, the B5 Magazine put the Warcruiser's length
at 600m, not a mile.

Now if you want to get into whether the Vorlons, Shadows, or any other 1st ones were to go againts the Borg...the borg would lose faster then I can say Lorien. If you truly believe that the Borg could win against any of the 1st ones or the ISA, then you haven't watched B5 or ST very closely.

I've watched them all quite closely. If anything, I can be VERY thorough.
And no, I don't think the Borg would lose in seconds, weeks, or even
years. "Five hundred megatons" pretty much says it all here bro.

Sean
Analyst http://www.babtech-onthe.net/

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-07-26 05:39pm

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As for those 3 thousand Centauri ships, weren't they produced over
a period of about two decades?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think it was closer to 15 years, built in secret at a single facility.

I believe it was actually at most five years, probably closer to three. The Centauri didn't begin their fleet build up until a few years before they planned on attacking the Alliance. This was mostly because the ISA was supspicious of them and conducting recon missions. They mostly concentrated on re-building their infastrucure, developing new weapons (with covert Drahk help) and designing new ships . And it was at a single largish facility.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-07-26 06:22pm

"Five hundred megatons" pretty much says it all here bro.

Bye Bye, Borg Cube?

A quantum torpedo is 128 megatons. Enough of those will take down a cube. I doubt the 500 megaton nukes will be enough to even the balance but the firepower disadvantage isn't as great as most people are making it out to be.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-26 09:58pm

The firepower difference IS as great as most people say it is. It is unfortunate, I know. Most of us WANT the ISA to win because B5 is a better series than most ST series, but unfortunately, we have to live with the reality that the Borg would be able to run over the ISA.

Incidentally, those 500 megaton nuclear weapons that destroyed Shadow ships exploded some distance away from the ships, significantly lowering the amount of damage that the Shadows had to withstand (which they did not). The quantum torpedoes seen destroying the Borg cube in ST:FC exploded INSIDE the ship, so most of their firepower was directed into the cube itself. Also remember that the cube had been engaged in combat for some time (three hours to several days, depending on estimates), and that the Shadow ships were COMPLETELY fresh. The firepower difference IS as great as people say.

BTW, there is no evidence that Narn (or any other ISA race) could actually FIRE such weapons. They seem to just be able to seed space with mines. This is a significant advantage that the Borg would have.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-07-26 10:48pm

I meant what I said about the borg probably winning in a pre-ACTA fight. They do have the firepower advantage; I'm not questioning that. I simply dispute the magnitude of it. I do believe luck and competence will determine the winner. The odds simply favor the borg.

BTW, there is no evidence that Narn (or any other ISA race) could actually FIRE such weapons. They seem to just be able to seed space with mines. This is a significant advantage that the Borg would have.

Earthforce uses missle on at least some of it's ships, the warlock for instance. They warheads weren't so large as to prevent them from being fitted on said missles.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-26 10:59pm

Earth Force DOES use some missiles on its ships, they've just never fired fusion weapons with them, even when they were being wiped out by the Minbari, and when they were having a Civil War. If they had had the capability, surely SOMEONE would have used it. President Clark didn't seem like the kind of guy to withhold weapons because it was immoral. That is why I posted saying that there was no evidence that they had such a capability. Every instance on screen that we see involving nuclear weapons involves using them as mines, or as ground based bombs to destroy large land masses. That is NOT evidence that they can be launched as missiles.

BTW, how big, exactly, do you think this firepower difference is?

What I am hearing from you is this: The ISA is both outnumbered and outgunned, ship for ship. They would win anyway because of luck and "other factors?" Where are you getting this from? If it is coolness factor, then yes, the ISA would win EASILY. But it's not. Coolness does not win wars for you. I agree with you that the battle does not always go to the strong, nor the debate to the smart, but that IS the way to bet. In this case, I simply cannot see how the firepower difference between the two fleets would be overcome by the ISA, even with the Victory class at its disposal. It just doesn't have the firepower. None of the B5 ships do.

starfury · Post by **starfury** » 2002-07-26 11:45pm

What I am hearing from you is this: The ISA is both outnumbered and outgunned, ship for ship. They would win anyway because of luck and "other factors?" Where are you getting this from? If it is coolness factor, then yes, the ISA would win EASILY. But it's not. Coolness does not win wars for you. I agree with you that the battle does not always go to the strong, nor the debate to the smart, but that IS the way to bet. In this case, I simply cannot see how the firepower difference between the two fleets would be overcome by the ISA, even with the Victory class at its disposal. It just doesn't have the firepower. None of the B5 ships do.

agreed, I like b5 more then trek but the fact is even during the Earth-minbari war, lowly EF ships were able to severely damage minbari ships if they hit them .the minbari advantage in armor and firepower is not that much larger then a magtitude then earthforce, and most earth ships don't even have something as simple as true artifical gravity.

I have also seen that even shadow/vorlon ships are not that much more powerful then the ships of the ISA. I would bet on the borg too, they simply have too much power for b5 ships to overcome.

Mechwolf · Post by **Mechwolf** » 2002-07-28 08:14pm

1. I put the B5 ship lengths down to show that B5 ships are not small. And to those people who think, or have published information to the contrary, remember that the published "official" length for a Super-class Star Destroyer is 12,800 meters, which of course wrong. These lengths come from B5Tech.com who got them form Tim Earls, the CGI/Specail effects director of B5

2. Borg shield abilities seem to contradict themselves every damn time they are in an episode or movie.
Seanrobertson: you say that Phasers emit nadions through a plasma stream according to VGR episode "Flashback". Assuming that is true, then the Borg shields would be able to deflect or absorb any phaser fire, regardless of whether or not they would have had to be exposed to before, because they would have been exposed to a plasma discharge that you claim they can adapt to. Afterall there is a finite number of EM frequencies. Remeber Borg shields adapt, regardless of how they adapt, to EM Frequencies.

Concerning the "upper-EM band" discharge: The blast would still have been made up of only a few specific frequncies. Plasma energy contains every conceivable EM frequency. If the Borg are invunerable to Plasma blasts, then no other energy weapon, regardless of type, will be able to damage them.

Seanrobertson, you are correct about the efectiveness of PhoTorp in the NTG episode "Q Who?". So I ask this of any ST writer, why in all later episode of NTG are PhoTorps the the most effective way to fight Borg vesssels? The ST writers have completely flip-flopped what can hurt the Borg. Also PHoTorps & Q-Torps don't appaer to have the ability to have their frequencies changed. This, plus Picard killing 3 drones with a Thompson machine-gun & Picard stating in 1ST Contact that they can't risk using particle weapons in the reactor room because stray shots might cause a plasma-coolant, suggest that multi-frquency energy blasts & ballistic weapons are what the Borg are vunerable to.

4.There are canon souces for Mass-drivers in B5. And though there are no canon sources for railguns, there are official sources for them in Agents Of Gaming B5 Wars. And since all a mass-driver is is a over-sized railgun, it is reasonable to accept that some B5 ships are equiped with railguns.

5.The Borg's weapons are not able to shoot into B5 Hyperspace (unless it's through a jump point). So, while a Cube is being occupied by by a group of ships, a lone ship in Hyperspace could open a jump point on the Cube. This is of course if the ship in H-Space has fairly accurate info on the Cube's p;ostion & speed.

Also, If the Borg have such long-range weapons why do they always get so close to engage their targets? The same arguement goes to all ST ships. None of them seem to be willing to fight any target at the much mentioned long range.

6. Sorry about the gigaton miscalculation.It was 300,000 Megatons. Which is still much more powerful that Federation Topedoes.

7. The reason B5 races don't use missile, nuclear or standard, often is because most races employ interceptors which are able to intercept incoming missiles relatively easy long before they get into effective range. Also keep in mind that B5 interceptors are also designed to intercept incoming particle weapon shots & fighters.

8. The standard Borg cube is 3000m cubed, or 27 cubic Km.

9. Finally, standard Borg tactics is that 1, & only 1, cube is sent. So in all the ISA would have to fight is 1. I'm not saying it would be an easy fight for the ISA. But it would be 1 that they win.

To paraphase Mr March at Macrossworld.com " the only SCiFi entity that doesn't seem able to fight the Borg very well is the Federation."

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-28 08:28pm

1. Who the hell said that B5 ships were small? They're not, they're very large. They are underpowered by most other sci-fi standards, but they are very large.
2. I agree, completely. The Borg are inconsistent, but they have been seen repeatedly stopping beam weapons to whose frequencies they have adapted.
3. You don't seem to have a third point, but you have a fourth.
4. A mass driver is not an oversized railgun. If you will watch the pictures of the Centauri bombarding Narn with mass drivers, you will note that there is no barrel to the weapon. A railgun necessitates a barrel. BTW, I thought that the Warlock had a railgun. Am I mistaken?
5. The Borg are not able to fire into hyperspace. Why does that matter? The Borg has VASTLY more firepower and shield power than B5 ships. I have never made any claims about long-range Borg weapons, in fact, I think that their EFFECTIVE ranges are very short. Perhaps their targetting sensors CAN target ships at the ranges many rabid Trekkies claim, but they have a lack of accuracy and power at all but close ranges that necessitates more close-range targets. I do not think that either side in this conflict has a dramatic disadvantage in range, I just think that the ISA cannot hope to match the Borg's firepower.
6. I have never seen a 300 MT weapon in B5. If you are referring to the power of the Great Machine, that is essentially irrelevent because Draal might never have joined the ISA.
7. So, many races employ interceptors for use agaisnt missiles. I guess that explains why the EarthForce Defense Grid fired non-nuclear payload missiles, and was designed to engage alien ships.
8. I think that might be a bit large, but I don't know why it's important, so I won't debate it.
9. Why the hell do you guys all get the idea that tactics dictate everything in a conflict? Can a cavalry force beat an equal number of tanks? Of course not. They would be badly beaten, regardless of tactics. BTW, we have seen the Borg use other tactics (although they appeared equally ineffective) against Species 8472.

I agree completely that the Federation seems laughably weak compared to many other sci-fi universes. Compared to Babylon 5, it is surprisingly powerful. The firepower of B5 ships simply does not compete with the firepower of other universes. Tactics or no tactics, the ISA cannot match the firepower of the Borg. They would lose in a conflict with them.

Omega-13 · Post by **Omega-13** » 2002-07-28 10:03pm

Would just like to throw out some other facts that might help the borg take down the ISA.

Multi Kenetic Neutronic Mines (VOY: scorpion) those things would send terror down the backs of the ISA. The borg detonates one of those in a system, and now the entire system is just that borg, they had no planetary defensive grids or screen, or force fields, however you want to say it, so all the nano's will go right down onto the population. The ISA ships don't seem to have any sort of internal sensors that help track movement, when Sheridan had the shadow pilots take over the omega's, they had to actually send guys down to see what the hell the problem was, now your saying, its cause all the power systems were messed up, cause of the hacking, well if 1 shadow pilot can do that, who's half asleep, how about 5 borg drones? How about 10?

If only 1 power panel was hacked, and the entire ship went to shit, imagine if multiple attacks were made on the computer system, looks like omega's do have centralised computer cores.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-28 10:40pm

Why do Trekkies always revert to bizarre weapons whose actual effects have never been quantified and strange tactics which would appear to be impossible?

Omega-13, I dispute the effects of the weapon you are talking about. If you actually did some math you would find that the concentration of nanobots would be ridiculously small, to the point where very large capital ships would have only a small chance of being hit with even one nanobot.

Having said that, even without this particular weapon, the Borg would still win because the standard firepower of a Borg cube is greater (by a lot) than anything the ISA has. Even an armada of ISA ships could not hope to do significant damage to a Borg cube.

Omega-13 · Post by **Omega-13** » 2002-07-28 11:19pm

Master of Ossus wrote:Why do Trekkies always revert to bizarre weapons whose actual effects have never been quantified and strange tactics which would appear to be impossible?

the deathstar is impossible, it happens, its cannon, so is this

Omega-13, I dispute the effects of the weapon you are talking about. If you actually did some math you would find that the concentration of nanobots would be ridiculously small, to the point where very large capital ships would have only a small chance of being hit with even one nanobot.

if you actually did some math, right off the bat your on the attack, and yet you have no idea if I did math or not, just a big assumption, I know all the details, the math was done along time ago, do some math on the DS, tell me how it works? can't? k, tell me the materials used to power...oh, can't...do you understand at all the chemical reactions of the DS? oh you don't..ok....i guess we can't use that either cause you can't explain it