[meliora] Babble

[meliora]

Sir Frederick Hoyle (British astronomer) said, "If one counts the number of trial assemblies of amino acids that are needed to give rise to the enzymes [required for life], the probability of their discovery by random shuffling turns out to be less than 1 in 1x10^40,000."

Mathematicians define anything over 10^50 as being absolutely impossible.

Former Yale professor of biophysics, Dr. Harold Horowitz, said the chance of the smallest, simplest life form evolving randomly is one chance in 10^340,000,000.

Let me give you a quote from a book by a guy named Mark Cahill who must be at least 4/5ths as retarded as I am... Let's assume macroevolution happened which really is quite an assumption isnt it for an encore we could assume ice is cold and water is wet and that I'm on fucking drugs! Then we could go and play in the africa in our minds, and let's look at the fucked up trippy giraffe taxi driver as an example of the reasons why I ought not to be allowed out alone after dark lest the albino dwarves come and take me away again to the magical land of Fukwitia where they'll make me their queen.

"One thing I learned is that the giraffe needs a powerful heart to pump blood up its long neck to the brain.
If we want to believe in evolution, let's imagine the very first giraffe manages to evolve the two-foot-long heart it needs to get blood up a neck that long. It's heart is now so powerful that, as the giraffe bends its head down, the increased blood pressure is more than enough to burst the blood vessels in its brain which makes me really glad I dont have one so it's never a risk it'll happen to me.

So this first giraffe must be intelligent enough to realize that an improvement is needed and then set out to somehow grow an incredibly complex organic structure to fix the problem please ignore the implicit assumption that this is a guided process, I've got some much more retarded ones to follow...
And it must do so within a matter of days -- before it dies of thirst or brain damage -- or else this new species will shortly be extinct. (Of course, how would it know an improvement was needed unless it first had a brain hemorrhage? And then it wouldn't know anything; it would be dead.)

Through evolution, which is imagined to consist of mindless, totally random accidental chance processes occurring over long periods of time, the creature manages to quickly devise a protective mechanism to prevent it from blowing its brains out when it gets its first drink of water.

Dr. Jobe Martin describes this amazingly detailed solution:
'As the animal bends its head down, valves in the arteries in its neck begin to close. Blood beyond the last valve continues moving toward the brain. But instead of passing at high speed and pressing into the brain and damaging or destroying it, that last pump is shunted under the brain into a group of vessels similar to a sponge. The brain is preserved as the powerful surge of oxygenated blood gently expands this 'sponge' beneath it.
However, from this mechanism another problem arises. A lion creeps up and prepares to kill its spotted prey. The giraffe quickly raises its head and, without something to compensate for the redused blood flow, passes out. It got up too fast, generating low blood pressure and diminished oxygen content in the brain. The lion eats a hearty meal, and the giraffe, were it alive, would realize that it had better evolve some mechanism to re-oxygenate its oxygen-deprived brain! We all know that animals that have been eaten by a lion don't evolve anything, even though evolutionists would have us believe that creatures evolve the necessary-for-life improvements as they are needed for survival.

So the giraffe survives because the arterial valves open as it begins to raise its head. The 'sponge' squeezes its oxygenated blood into the brain; valves in the neck veins close to help level out the blood pressure; and the giraffe can be quickly erect and running without passing out and becoming lion lunch. And it does all of this automatically.'

.... Remember, if there is even one creature that could not have evolved, then there must be a Creator."

[Admiral Valdemar]

Don't even GO there. What you fail to realise is Hoyle doesn't know shit about biochemistry. I do. Look up cumulative evolution sometime. Be enlightened.

[Coyote]

Very nice, meliora. Why don't you come back and join us in this thread where many eager await your replies? I believe it is your serve...

[Ghost Rider]

One do not Necro.

Two, your conculsion is immensely flawed.

Split from here

[SirNitram]

Sir Frederick Hoyle (British astronomer) said, "If one counts the number of trial assemblies of amino acids that are needed to give rise to the enzymes [required for life], the probability of their discovery by random shuffling turns out to be less than 1 in 1x10^40,000."

Except they will never be truly random; chemistry dictates the combinations possible under specific conditions. So this is basically a useless being of trivia, worthless inside this context.

Mathematicians define anything over 10^50 as being absolutely impossible.

No they don't. They define it as 'over 10^50'. Mathematicians are precise people.

Former Yale professor of biophysics, Dr. Harold Horowitz, said the chance of the smallest, simplest life form evolving randomly is one chance in 10^340,000,000.

Wow, three hundred forty million? Good thing it had four billion years to roll the dice! Even at only one 'chance' a year, it was inevitable. The majesty of probability combined with time!

Let me give you a quote from a book by a guy named Mark Cahill. Let's assume macroevolution happened, and let's look at the giraffe as an example.

Macroevolution is a non-phenomenon. It does not exist in any science. There is only evolution, and time.

"One thing I learned is that the giraffe needs a powerful heart to pump blood up its long neck to the brain.
If we want to believe in evolution, let's imagine the very first giraffe manages to evolve the two-foot-long heart it needs to get blood up a neck that long. It's heart is now so powerful that, as the giraffe bends its head down, the increased blood pressure is more than enough to burst the blood vessels in its brain.

A laughable concept; it grows in small increments, just as the Japanese have since the introduction of more calcium in their diet. Like most creationists, you show no understanding of the nature of the mechanism.

So this first giraffe must be intelligent enough to realize that an improvement is needed and then set out to somehow grow an incredibly complex organic structure to fix the problem.
And it must do so within a matter of days -- before it dies of thirst or brain damage -- or else this new species will shortly be extinct. (Of course, how would it know an improvement was needed unless it first had a brain hemorrhage? And then it wouldn't know anything; it would be dead.)

New species? The first giraffe to have a slightly longer neck, say, an extra inch or two, will simply be a slightly odd giraffe. You apparently subscribe to Star Trek Magic Evolution, which is nonsense. Real evolution takes millions of years and thousands of iterations.

Through evolution, which is imagined to consist of mindless, totally random accidental chance processes occurring over long periods of time, the creature manages to quickly devise a protective mechanism to prevent it from blowing its brains out when it gets its first drink of water.

Nothing is truly random. The combination of genes, the mutation of DNA, and the selection of dominant traits are dictated by chemistry, biology, and natural selection. Your obsession with strawmanning this for 'pure randomness' is telling of your lack of knowledge.

Dr. Jobe Martin describes this amazingly detailed solution:
'As the animal bends its head down, valves in the arteries in its neck begin to close. Blood beyond the last valve continues moving toward the brain. But instead of passing at high speed and pressing into the brain and damaging or destroying it, that last pump is shunted under the brain into a group of vessels similar to a sponge. The brain is preserved as the powerful surge of oxygenated blood gently expands this 'sponge' beneath it.
However, from this mechanism another problem arises. A lion creeps up and prepares to kill its spotted prey. The giraffe quickly raises its head and, without something to compensate for the redused blood flow, passes out. It got up too fast, generating low blood pressure and diminished oxygen content in the brain. The lion eats a hearty meal, and the giraffe, were it alive, would realize that it had better evolve some mechanism to re-oxygenate its oxygen-deprived brain! We all know that animals that have been eaten by a lion don't evolve anything, even though evolutionists would have us believe that creatures evolve the necessary-for-life improvements as they are needed for survival.

Again, this strawman requires us to throw out the observed methods of evolution for some magic nonsense which bears no relation with reality, therefore I laugh at you for being a bratty 18 year old.

So the giraffe survives because the arterial valves open as it begins to raise its head. The 'sponge' squeezes its oxygenated blood into the brain; valves in the neck veins close to help level out the blood pressure; and the giraffe can be quickly erect and running without passing out and becoming lion lunch. And it does all of this automatically.'

.... Remember, if there is even one creature that could not have evolved, then there must be a Creator."

Who Created the Creator? Chew on that, kid. Come back when you pass a real biology course.

[Ghost Rider]

Merged through the glory of super powerful work connect speeds.

[Big Phil]

Have fun Nitram, but you do realize that no matter what you post, meliora probably won't understand or accept it...

[SirNitram]

Have fun Nitram, but you do realize that no matter what you post, meliora probably won't understand or accept it...

Oh, like my mockery of them requires they understand. Or, to channel the Eldar:

Your understanding is not required, Mon-Keigh. Merely your death.

[LadyTevar]

A day to God is a thousand years to man.

I see no reason why God could not have taken his time to get things right.

[SirNitram]

A day to God is a thousand years to man.

I see no reason why God could not have taken his time to get things right.

Or to employ a Prachettism, the existance of a badly made watch proves the existance of a hungover watchmaker.(Those all night keggers with Thor take their toll.)

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

What the hell!?

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

Whee, this is the most fun I've had since that free-energy nutcase passed through here a while back.

Sir Frederick Hoyle (British astronomer) said, "If one counts the number of trial assemblies of amino acids that are needed to give rise to the enzymes [required for life], the probability of their discovery by random shuffling turns out to be less than 1 in 1x10^40,000."

This is the usual Creationist tornado-in-a-junkyard fallacy. Refuted in the links provided in that other flamefest you started. But, a quick refutation will be provided.

A) Even the simplest forms of Earthlife have accumulated billions of years of chemical redundancies. Experiments with humble bacteria show that one can hack out a whole bunch of biological processes within a given bacteria, and it will be no worse for wear. You are ignoring the possibility of simpler forms of life, or even self-replicating molecules requiring smaller sets of enzymes for successful function. The simplest life as we know it is the equivalent of a tricked-out Cadillac Escalade. It should not be seen as the equivalent of an ox-drawn cart.

B) A planet conducive to the formation of life has a large variety of environments in which natural biochemical experiments are conducted. And in a given environment, there are potentially trillions and trillions of reactions going on. These reactions tend to follow well-defined patterns, based on the molecular layouts of the chemicals involved. Furthermore, chemical processes that are more efficient at replicating themselves will do so much faster than those that aren't (outproducing less-efficient molecular assemblages and depriving them of resources.) Very rapidly, this selection pressure will stack the deck in favor of efficient, workable self-replicators. The end result will invariably be something we'd consider to be "alive." Abiogenesis is hardly impossible, nor is it even highly improbable.

Former Yale professor of biophysics, Dr. Harold Horowitz, said the chance of the smallest, simplest life form evolving randomly is one chance in 10^340,000,000.

Depends on your definition of "simple," the number of trials involved and a number of other factors. Needless to say, this is less an argument against anything and more of a molestation of statistics.

Let me give you a quote from a book by a guy named Mark Cahill. Let's assume macroevolution happened, and let's look at the giraffe as an example.

"One thing I learned is that the giraffe needs a powerful heart to pump blood up its long neck to the brain.
If we want to believe in evolution, let's imagine the very first giraffe manages to evolve the two-foot-long heart it needs to get blood up a neck that long. It's heart is now so powerful that, as the giraffe bends its head down, the increased blood pressure is more than enough to burst the blood vessels in its brain.

Classic misrepresentation of evolution. Giraffes didn't spring into existence overnight with long necks. Giraffe precursors were likely short-necked animals. Generations of selective pressure induced a shift towards longer-necked animals capable of exploiting a previously untapped food resource. Animals whose circulatory systems could cope with their body layouts would be more likely to survive to reproductive age than animals that couldn't. End result, the highly-adapted animal we see today.

.... Remember, if there is even one creature that could not have evolved, then there must be a Creator."

Oh, but of course. There are creatures which haven't evolved in nature, and their creator is Man.

[Rye]

Macroevolution is a non-phenomenon. It does not exist in any science. There is only evolution, and time.

This is actually wrong. There are certainly science papers that use the term, and in different ways. For instance, they might use it to mean large scale divergence, the overall history of an organism, as well as the physical effects and selection, as a result of genetic change.

Of course, the copypasted creationist bullshit isn't worth responding to, but I just thought I should add that.

[Lagmonster]

.... Remember, if there is even one creature that could not have evolved, then there must be a Creator."

And because you can't envision how a particular biological system could have evolved, it must be impossible.

You aren't just talking to a bunch of sci-fi geeks, here. Many of us have studied biology at something higher than the high school level, let alone logic and reasoning.

[Admiral Valdemar]

This is actually wrong. There are certainly science papers that use the term, and in different ways. For instance, they might use it to mean large scale divergence, the overall history of an organism, as well as the physical effects and selection, as a result of genetic change.

Of course, the copypasted creationist bullshit isn't worth responding to, but I just thought I should add that.

The funny thing is that they accept micro-, yet not macroevolution. The terms are used in journals, but somehow the idea of progressive, cumulative changes over time causing big differences as a result is beyond the grasp of these people. It's like thinking the revolutions of the big hand of a clock don't result in the small hand moving marginally.

[sketerpot]

Former Yale professor of biophysics, Dr. Harold Horowitz, said the chance of the smallest, simplest life form evolving randomly is one chance in 10^340,000,000.

Wow, three hundred forty million? Good thing it had four billion years to roll the dice! Even at only one 'chance' a year, it was inevitable. The majesty of probability combined with time!

The number was 10^340,000,000. However, the usual objections to this sort of reasoning still apply.

Also, this number was taken out of context from a book on the evolution of the first cellular life. The author talks about many of the ways that the formation of cells is non-random, such as the way that membranes spontaneously form from phospholipids. It's annoying how creationists dishonestly pervert the words of reputable scientists and foul their good names.

[Admiral Valdemar]

But this is par for the course, since the idea of beneficial mutations occurring for instance impossible to imagine given the odds.

[SirNitram]

Former Yale professor of biophysics, Dr. Harold Horowitz, said the chance of the smallest, simplest life form evolving randomly is one chance in 10^340,000,000.

Wow, three hundred forty million? Good thing it had four billion years to roll the dice! Even at only one 'chance' a year, it was inevitable. The majesty of probability combined with time!

The number was 10^340,000,000. However, the usual objections to this sort of reasoning still apply.

Also, this number was taken out of context from a book on the evolution of the first cellular life. The author talks about many of the ways that the formation of cells is non-random, such as the way that membranes spontaneously form from phospholipids. It's annoying how creationists dishonestly pervert the words of reputable scientists and foul their good names.

Why am I not surprised it's removed from it's context? Ugh, Creationists.

And I'm annoyed. That's another very basic mistake I made. This flu is messing with my higher reasoning centre- ooga booga!

[Admiral Valdemar]

Fight it, Nit! Don't devolve into a monkey! We came from monkeys, remember? Wacky stuff.

[Darth Wong]

I wonder if this worthless "meliora" moron is capable of writing original thoughts and responding directly to points, instead of mindlessly copying and pasting out of creationist websites.

[Admiral Valdemar]

I wouldn't hold your breath. I smell generic Creationist follower here, not a pro-bullshitter.

[Plekhanov]

It’s odd that creationists would use the Giraffe as an example the apparent impossibly of evolution as whilst many people may have difficulty comprehending how the human eye or bombardier beetle evolved most people are capable of visualising how an increasingly high necks might be an advantage (I mean everybody’s seen trees) & the adaptations needed to live with them might gradually develop over time.

[Lagmonster]

I wouldn't hold your breath. I smell generic Creationist follower here, not a pro-bullshitter.

All the smart money is on her being a recent high school grad, full of fresh confidence, and years of being covered in a deluge of religious fervor events, piles of religious-themed literature and 'science' texts, and all the reasoning skills of a potato.

[Straha]

I wonder if this worthless "meliora" moron is capable of writing original thoughts and responding directly to points, instead of mindlessly copying and pasting out of creationist websites.

A quick look at her Xanga page, provided in her URL link in her profile, reveals her to be an ardent member of the "RP Church" with much talking about evangalizing, feeling jesus in her heart, and being a member of Campus Crusade. It also reveals her to be 18 (my bad, 19 Happy Birthday even if it's a little delayed) and homeschooled. And that, I think, is the answer to the question of the source of the ignorance.

That being said, I must say, that my first thoughts of vile and anger are replaced with.... pity I guess for her ignorance.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

I wonder if this worthless "meliora" moron is capable of writing original thoughts and responding directly to points, instead of mindlessly copying and pasting out of creationist websites.

A quick look at her Xanga page, provided in her URL link in her profile, reveals her to be an ardent member of the "RP Church" with much talking about evangalizing, feeling jesus in her heart, and being a member of Campus Crusade. It also reveals her to be 18 (my bad, 19 Happy Birthday even if it's a little delayed) and homeschooled. And that, I think, is the answer to the question of the source of the ignorance.

That being said, I must say, that my first thoughts of vile and anger are replaced with.... pity I guess for her ignorance.

For those who might be wondering what "RP" stands for, in this instance, it means "Reformed Presbyterian." These folks believe in the complete and utter infallibility of the Scriptures, and that they are the absolute guide for all matters in faith and life in general.

They also believe that the only way that God should be worshipped by the recitation or singing of the Psalms only and tend to view other Christian denominations as being flawed for their use of hymns and other non-Biblical artifices in their veneration of God.

They are also very evangelical sorts.

(Sources:)
Yes, it's Wikipedia. You may boo me now.

The website of this particular denomination.