What if you were in Anakin's shoes ?

[Darth Cronos the Proud]

He believed that the boy he trained is now gone and consumed by Darth Vader. To Obi-Wan, Anakin is dead.

Wrong! I will repeat. It is not until Vader Force-Chokes Padme and then says to Obi-Wan "You're either with me, or you're my enemy" that Obi-Wan finally decides that Vader must be eliminated. Up until that point Obi-Wan was trying to reason with and convince Anakin of the error of his ways. This is hardly the actions of a person who though there was no going back for his apprentice.

Again, I would maintain that expecting Padme to think in such a farsighted manner considering the circumstances she was thrust into is foolish in the extreme. In addition, I would say that Anakin became Vader when he submitted to Palpatine and lead the 501st into the temple. IN escense, Padme was dealing with a completely different person on Mustafar.

At the very least, Padme, even in the state she was in, would know that the Republic is dead and that Anakin, even in the state he's in, would be a better ruler than Palpatine. She would also know that not joining him would send him into the arms of the Emperor. Also, the movie completely debunks the idea that Anakin totally becomes Vader after submitting to Palpatine and leading the 501st in the attack on the Jedi Temple. When Anakin goes back to Padme after the attack, and in the pre-Force-Choke Mustafar landing pad scene, we can see in his words and expressions that he still thinks the same. He is still focused on saving Padme. This is consistant with the Anakin we know from all three Prequels. It is not until after the Force-Choke that we see a complete severing with the old Anakin and the new, ruthless Vader we know from ANH.

[Pint0 Xtreme]

Wrong! I will repeat. It is not until Vader Force-Chokes Padme and then says to Obi-Wan "You're either with me, or you're my enemy" that Obi-Wan finally decides that Vader must be eliminated.

What a ridiculous conclusion. Obi-Wan says pleads Yoda, "Send me to kill the Emperor. I will not kill Anakin." Even when talking to Padme, Obi-Wan stays silent when Padme asks if he is going to kill him. It is obvious that their original plan was to eliminate both Sidious and Vader.

Up until that point Obi-Wan was trying to reason with and convince Anakin of the error of his ways. This is hardly the actions of a person who though there was no going back for his apprentice.

Perhaps Obi-Wan had a glimmer of hope that Anakin had not become the monster he saw in the security recordings. Regardless, his "methods" of convincing Vader to abandon the dark side is an indication that Obi-Wan knew deep inside that his efforts would be futile. In short, if he was trying to reason with Vader, he sure didn't try very hard with all that lecturing and scolding.

[Darth Cronos the Proud]

What a ridiculous conclusion. Obi-Wan says pleads Yoda, "Send me to kill the Emperor. I will not kill Anakin." Even when talking to Padme, Obi-Wan stays silent when Padme asks if he is going to kill him. It is obvious that their original plan was to eliminate both Sidious and Vader.

Duh, he says "I will not kill Anakin." The silence only means that Obi-Wan was not going to promise not to kill Anakin, not that he was resigned to killing him. The difference being that he didn't want to promise because he hoped to turn Anakin back, but wanted to leave some wiggle room if that failed (which it did)

Perhaps Obi-Wan had a glimmer of hope that Anakin had not become the monster he saw in the security recordings. Regardless, his "methods" of convincing Vader to abandon the dark side is an indication that Obi-Wan knew deep inside that his efforts would be futile. In short, if he was trying to reason with Vader, he sure didn't try very hard with all that lecturing and scolding.

Now that's ridiculous claim to make without any proof. I'm going by what's onscreen. If you can quote me something in the novelization that supports your idea of whats going on in Obi-Wan's head, I'll concede the point. Until then, the only rational conclusion you can garner from on screen scenes is that Obi-Wan was trying to convice Anakin (abet in a very bad, lecturing way) of the error of his ways.

[Surlethe]

As an aside, it is true that Anakin had committed numerous atrocities right before the fight on Mustafar, but for Padme to ignore a chance to bring freedom back to the Galaxy because doing so would mean joining Anakin after he committed these atrocities would be like cutting off your nose to spite your face, totally irrational and downright selfish.

Just like Anakin joining Palpatine and destroying freedom in the galaxy to save Padme is totally irrational and downright selfish? Oh, wait; never mind.

[Darth Cronos the Proud]

As an aside, it is true that Anakin had committed numerous atrocities right before the fight on Mustafar, but for Padme to ignore a chance to bring freedom back to the Galaxy because doing so would mean joining Anakin after he committed these atrocities would be like cutting off your nose to spite your face, totally irrational and downright selfish.

Just like Anakin joining Palpatine and destroying freedom in the galaxy to save Padme is totally irrational and downright selfish? Oh, wait; never mind.

But it fits perfectly with the principles that Anakin held dear. Not so with the case of Padme. That's what I've been saying. Anakin held true to his principles, Padme did not. That's why I condemn Padem's choice while lauding Anakin's. The fact that one's principles had selfish motives while the other's didn't is key here. Padme's principles were always selfless, then she goes against those principles in a moment of selfish indignation, while Anakin is consistant. To go even further, Anakin's choice alone did not condemn the Galaxy, it took Padem's rejection to seal the deal.

[NecronLord]

I should hope you're not as mind-bogglingly stupid as to forget that we're supposed to be in Anakin's shoes. Palpatine said that if they worked together they could find the secret.

He admits he's been lying. That, in combination with knowing he's a shadowy manipulative Sith Lord, would make anyone with an iota of sense immediately realise they're being manipulated, and off the old bastard while he's unarmed.

[Darth Cronos the Proud]

I should hope you're not as mind-bogglingly stupid as to forget that we're supposed to be in Anakin's shoes. Palpatine said that if they worked together they could find the secret.

He admits he's been lying. That, in combination with knowing he's a shadowy manipulative Sith Lord, would make anyone with an iota of sense immediately realise they're being manipulated, and off the old bastard while he's unarmed.

Show me where he lies or admits that he lied. The genius of Palpatine is that what he says is the truth. When he tells Anaking the story of Darth Plagueis, and when he reveals himself to Anakin in his office, he never once proposes that he knows how to keep people from dying with the help of the Dark Side. He merely tells Anaking that it's possible, which I am inclined to believe because Palpatine always uses the truth to get what he wants (in a manipulative way.) Plus you're using the "I'd kill Palpatine and be done with it" 20/20 hindsight movie critic crap that makes any "what would you do in so-in-so's shoes" discussion impossible because you are not putting yourself in his shoes!

[Noble Ire]

But it fits perfectly with the principles that Anakin held dear. Not so with the case of Padme. That's what I've been saying. Anakin held true to his principles, Padme did not. That's why I condemn Padem's choice while lauding Anakin's. The fact that one's principles had selfish motives while the other's didn't is key here. Padme's principles were always selfless, then she goes against those principles in a moment of selfish indignation, while Anakin is consistant. To go even further, Anakin's choice alone did not condemn the Galaxy, it took Padem's rejection to seal the deal.

So in escense, you're saying that consistant person, even if his consistancy leads to an destructive and evil end, is superior to a person who has worked her entire life for the betterment of the people, and only falters in this in the face of a person who, to her, is likely both insane and a lier?

[Darth Cronos the Proud]

So in escense, you're saying that consistant person, even if his consistancy leads to an destructive and evil end, is superior to a person who has worked her entire life for the betterment of the people, and only falters in this in the face of a person who, to her, is likely both insane and a lier?

I'd say I respect a person who remains consistant in his/her principles more than a person who falters. Plus, Anakin's "mistake" (I use quotation marks because I don't consider it a mistake, but many do) to be less severe than Padme's because A) It flew in the face of her principles and B) the decision not to join Anakin was what caused Palpatine's Empire to continue to exist. It seems that Anakin's choice doomed at the most Padme (unintentionally), the Jedi Order, and himself, while Padme's choice cost the Galaxy it's freedom. Gee, which one's worse? (Hint: there are more people in the Galaxy than in the Jedi Order) Past good deeds do not make up for a monumental blunder like that.

[Lord Pounder]

I should hope you're not as mind-bogglingly stupid as to forget that we're supposed to be in Anakin's shoes. Palpatine said that if they worked together they could find the secret.

He admits he's been lying. That, in combination with knowing he's a shadowy manipulative Sith Lord, would make anyone with an iota of sense immediately realise they're being manipulated, and off the old bastard while he's unarmed.

Show me where he lies or admits that he lied. The genius of Palpatine is that what he says is the truth. When he tells Anaking the story of Darth Plagueis, and when he reveals himself to Anakin in his office, he never once proposes that he knows how to keep people from dying with the help of the Dark Side. He merely tells Anaking that it's possible, which I am inclined to believe because Palpatine always uses the truth to get what he wants (in a manipulative way.) Plus you're using the "I'd kill Palpatine and be done with it" 20/20 hindsight movie critic crap that makes any "what would you do in so-in-so's shoes" discussion impossible because you are not putting yourself in his shoes!

Palpatine told Anakin that only a Plagus could stop the ones he loved from dying. In the same conversation he said Plagus had taught his student everything he knew. Being as how Palpatine was that sudent and he didn't know "cheat death". To paraphrase Kent Brockman I'm not saying he's a liar but we do have many pictures of him with his pants on fire.

[Noble Ire]

I'd say I respect a person who remains consistant in his/her principles more than a person who falters.

So, you're saying you would have respect for, say, a cop killer who slaughters lawmen at his every opportunity out of some some need for vengance or something, even if it involved endangering himself, but not a decorated and dedicated police officer, who fails to stop that cop killer when he has the chance, because he loses his nerves because the man has a hostage or something, and thus gets himself killed.

I use quotation marks because I don't consider it a mistake, but many do

You don't think that executing one of your former comrades instead of a known and ancient enemy, who you know has been manipulating you for a decade and will cast the galaxy under the shadow of oppression and genocide if allowed to live is a mistake?

to be less severe than Padme's because A) It flew in the face of her principles and B) the decision not to join Anakin was what caused Palpatine's Empire to continue to exist.

This arguement is incredibly questionable. Tell me, how was she supposed to know Vader, and he was Vader then, would any better than Palpatine? She knew Palpatine was manipulative and power-hungry, yes, but Vader had just committed numerous murders, and was clearly no longer the person she had loved. Would you trust someone like that?

It seems that Anakin's choice doomed at the most Padme (unintentionally), the Jedi Order, and himself, while Padme's choice cost the Galaxy it's freedom. Gee, which one's worse? (Hint: there are more people in the Galaxy than in the Jedi Order) Past good deeds do not make up for a monumental blunder like that.

Wrong. Anakin's actions doomed not only virtually everyone that was close to him, and the Jedi Order, but also allowed the Sith to take complete control of the galaxy, and act that would lead to genocide and subjegation on a massive scale. Padme's actions chose which Sith would rule this new Empire (this, of course forgetting that Padme didn't even really make a choice, unless you expected her to vow her undying love for Anakin as soon as she landed and forget and forgive all his sins, even in the face of his changed and extremely questionable nature.)

[Darth Cronos the Proud]

So, you're saying you would have respect for, say, a cop killer who slaughters lawmen at his every opportunity out of some some need for vengance or something, even if it involved endangering himself, but not a decorated and dedicated police officer, who fails to stop that cop killer when he has the chance, because he loses his nerves because the man has a hostage or something, and thus gets himself killed.

Horribly erroneous comparison. Your hypothetic cop killer doesn't have a shred of good intentions in him, Anakin did. Your hypothetical cop choked because the killer had a hostage, not because of some "cute off your nose to spite your face" reason (see previous posts.)

You don't think that executing one of your former comrades instead of a known and ancient enemy, who you know has been manipulating you for a decade and will cast the galaxy under the shadow of oppression and genocide if allowed to live is a mistake?

A former comrade who tried to tell you, through his Order's teachings, that you couldn't be with the person you love and had personally treated you like shit from the time you knew him, instead of a man who has been like a father to you since the time you knew him and who has supported you in all your endevours. Plus, I'd love for you to show me where and how Anakin knew that Palpatine had been manipulating him for a decade (we know, but that's part of the 20/20 hindsight crap I've been fighting against in this thread) and show me where Anakin would know about Palpatine's genocidal plans (we know, but all Anakin knew was that the Jedi were to be eliminated, but that's covered above), plus this is all for someone you love very much. Forgive me if I don't label this a mistake.

This arguement is incredibly questionable. Tell me, how was she supposed to know Vader, and he was Vader then, would any better than Palpatine? She knew Palpatine was manipulative and power-hungry, yes, but Vader had just committed numerous murders, and was clearly no longer the person she had loved. Would you trust someone like that?

Please read my previous posts where I use the movie to debunk the idea that Anakin became Vader prior to Padme's rejection. If you're gonna believe that he became Vader when he committed the atrocities at the Jedi Temple, you have to believe that he became Vader when he killed all the Sand People (men, women, and children) way back in Episode II (same principle slaughter of innocents), but you won't see anyone trying to advance that theory. Case closed on that one. As to wether Padme would know Anakin would be a better ruler than Palpatine, she's been with the guy for years now. She knows, even when laying on the operating table after giving birth, that there is good left in Anakin/Vader (she's proven right by her son in ROTJ), so right there she'd know she could reach out to that good and help him be a better ruler than Palpatine. Case closed on that one.

Wrong. Anakin's actions doomed not only virtually everyone that was close to him, and the Jedi Order, but also allowed the Sith to take complete control of the galaxy, and act that would lead to genocide and subjegation on a massive scale. Padme's actions chose which Sith would rule this new Empire (this, of course forgetting that Padme didn't even really make a choice, unless you expected her to vow her undying love for Anakin as soon as she landed and forget and forgive all his sins, even in the face of his changed and extremely questionable nature.)

Please read by previous posts where I lay out how a "yes" answer from Padme would first lead to a Sith Empire under Anakin (which wouldn't be a genocidal reign like Palpatine's) and then would transition into a New Republic under Padme's guiding hand. Not to mention that, as I've stated earlier, Anakin's fall does not doom the Galaxy without Padme's rejection. Case closed on that one.

[Darth Cronos the Proud]

Palpatine told Anakin that only a Plagus could stop the ones he loved from dying. In the same conversation he said Plagus had taught his student everything he knew. Being as how Palpatine was that sudent and he didn't know "cheat death". To paraphrase Kent Brockman I'm not saying he's a liar but we do have many pictures of him with his pants on fire.

Nowhere and at no time did Palpatine say he was Darth Plagueis' apprentice. This is an opinion that several people have advance and somehow it has become like gospel truth. I know what most people interpret the smirk on Palpatine's face as he tells the story as proof that he's remembering killing Plagueis, but it's far from proof. I can go so far as to say that the smirk was due to Palpatine's favorable opinion of the unnamed apprentice, or because the story reminded him of how he offed his own master. This theory is no more right or wrong than the theory that Palpatine was Plagueis' apprentice. Without sound proof otherwise, this theory must be discounted. Case closed on that one.

[Pint0 Xtreme]

Duh, he says "I will not kill Anakin."

Yes, and that's exactly when Yoda countered that Anakin is now dead. Conceding that he has to kill Vader, Obi-Wan then tells Yoda that he doesn't know where to look.

The silence only means that Obi-Wan was not going to promise not to kill Anakin, not that he was resigned to killing him. The difference being that he didn't want to promise because he hoped to turn Anakin back, but wanted to leave some wiggle room if that failed (which it did)

Do you have evidence for this line thought since you claim to know Obi-Wan's precise thoughts?

Now that's ridiculous claim to make without any proof. I'm going by what's onscreen. If you can quote me something in the novelization that supports your idea of whats going on in Obi-Wan's head, I'll concede the point. Until then, the only rational conclusion you can garner from on screen scenes is that Obi-Wan was trying to convice Anakin (abet in a very bad, lecturing way) of the error of his ways.

You're the one claiming that Obi-Wan decided to kill Vader at the moment he spoke to Vader on Mustafar without any evidence of his precise thoughts. How the hell can you criticize me for simply postulating Obi-Wan's thoughts based on his actions when you're doing the same fucking thing, especially when your conclusion of Obi-Wan's thoughts are more direct and precise than mine? You're going to have to do a much better job than that if you're trying to convince me that "The Negotiator" was sincerely trying to convince Vader to abandon the dark side.

[Lord Pounder]

Nowhere and at no time did Palpatine say he was Darth Plagueis' apprentice.

No it's fact, try reading the RotS novelisation and then Dark Lord. And even if it's not outright stated in the movie it;s pretty obvious to anyone with more intelligence than a casio watch, that Plagus was Palpatines Master.

[Pint0 Xtreme]

Nowhere and at no time did Palpatine say he was Darth Plagueis' apprentice. This is an opinion that several people have advance and somehow it has become like gospel truth.

You certainly haven't done your homework here.

Behind a curtain of secrecy lurked Darth Sidious, a mysterious Sith Lord and puppet-master of the tumultuous events that brought an end to the Republic. The Sith order had been extinct for a millennium, yet somehow, two survived -- the Master Darth Plagueis and his apprentice, Darth Sidious. Plagueis, the wise, was an adept of some of the most arcane and unnatural applications of the Force. As Sidious described, Plagueis had uncovered a path to immortality through the manipulation of the dark side of the Force. Plagueis could, it was said, coax the midi-chlorians present in all living cells to create life from nothingness.

[Ghost Rider]

Nowhere and at no time did Palpatine say he was Darth Plagueis' apprentice. This is an opinion that several people have advance and somehow it has become like gospel truth.

Read Dark Lord. Palpatine explicitly says who his master was and how he killed him.

[Darth Cronos the Proud]

Need quotes and page number of Dark Lord. Don't know what the canon status of StarWars.com is. But even though I will concede the point, it doesn't change the fact that given the info that Anakin knew, the info that we would be limited to if we were to truly place ourselves in Anakin's shoes, we could not know that Palpatine was lying. We have to save Padme (or whomever you replace Padme with for the purpose of truly putting yourself in Anakin's shoes), and the teachings of the Jedi can't do it so...welcome Dark Side, welcome Master Sidious, and everyhting after that.

[Lord Revan]

Sidious could still hear Darth Plagueis lecturing him

Envy, hatred, betrayal... They were essential to mastering the dark side, but only as mean of distancing oneself from all common notion of morality in the intrest of a higher goal. Only when Sidious had understood this fully had he acted on it, killing his master while he slept

Unlike Plagueis, Sidious knew better then to sleep.

I think this is evidence enough

EDIT:this is from the hardcover version

[Surlethe]

As an aside, it is true that Anakin had committed numerous atrocities right before the fight on Mustafar, but for Padme to ignore a chance to bring freedom back to the Galaxy because doing so would mean joining Anakin after he committed these atrocities would be like cutting off your nose to spite your face, totally irrational and downright selfish.

Just like Anakin joining Palpatine and destroying freedom in the galaxy to save Padme is totally irrational and downright selfish? Oh, wait; never mind.

But it fits perfectly with the principles that Anakin held dear. Not so with the case of Padme. That's what I've been saying. Anakin held true to his principles, Padme did not.

His principles, like his oath to destroy the Sith and protect the Republic?

That's why I condemn Padem's choice while lauding Anakin's. The fact that one's principles had selfish motives while the other's didn't is key here.

And the fact Anakin's choice destroyed the fucking Republic doesn't mean anything to you? The only thing upon which you base your criteria is that he had a good motive for destroying the Republic, and stayed true to it?

Padme's principles were always selfless, then she goes against those principles in a moment of selfish indignation, while Anakin is consistant.

So, now you're saying Padme didn't love Anakin. Why don't you go back and watch Episodes I, II, and III again, and then see if you can say that again with a straight face.

To go even further, Anakin's choice alone did not condemn the Galaxy, it took Padme's rejection to seal the deal.

Bullshit. Anakin's choice alone destroyed the Jedi and created the Empire; Padme's rejection was a natural outgrowth of his choice, and was almost inevitable once Padme learned what he had become.

[Darth Cronos the Proud]

You're the one claiming that Obi-Wan decided to kill Vader at the moment he spoke to Vader on Mustafar without any evidence of his precise thoughts. How the hell can you criticize me for simply postulating Obi-Wan's thoughts based on his actions when you're doing the same fucking thing, especially when your conclusion of Obi-Wan's thoughts are more direct and precise than mine? You're going to have to do a much better job than that if you're trying to convince me that "The Negotiator" was sincerely trying to convince Vader to abandon the dark side.

Because if your hypothesis it true, then why didn't Obi-Wan just run down the ramp and try to kill Anakin while he is distracted by Padme. Only someone who thought Obi-Wan was a complete idiot without any combat experience would make this assumption, and we know that Obi-Wan is at least of moderate intelligence and has plenty of combat experience (even against lightsaber wielding sociopaths i.e. General Grievous. And don't give me that "it's against the Jedi Code to sneak attack someone" because Yoda did view Anakin and Palpatine as serous threats that they were willing to kill them (and we can see from the Windu/Palpatine fight that it is Jedi Code for offenders, even Sith, to be brought to trial instead of being eliminated.) And yes, Yoda could have said to Obi-Wan "try to bring Vader back alive for trial (as per the Jedi Code) but lo and behold, he goes right for the assasination attempt. Hell, even at the end of the fight Obi-Wan spares Vader (he could have easily killed him either when Vader flipped, or when Vader was lying with no legs and one arm.)

Anyhow, Obi-Wan's failure to go on the offensive right from the ship ramp is canon proof that there was hesitation, and there is no other reason for the hesitation, and the long winded lecturing by Obi-Wan that he wasn't resigned to killing Anakin until his attempts to bring him back had failed. This hesitation and lecturing completely refute your assumption that Obi-Wan was ready to kill Anakin from the start.

Do you have evidence for this line thought since you claim to know Obi-Wan's precise thoughts?

Canon scene evidence where Obi-Wan doesn't go right after Anakin from the boarding ramp but instead spends several minutes trying to lecture him down. Then when that fails he tries to kill him. It's the only logical explination. How much clearer can I make it?

[Pint0 Xtreme]

What a fucking dumb assertion. Just because Obi-Wan didn't outright charge Vader means he had no intention of killing him? Just like how Obi-Wan had no intention of killing Grievous since he didn't unleash a surprise blow to Grievous' head when he had the perfect opportunity?

It's funny how you immediately dismiss the Jedi Code Obi-Wan follows, insisting that the threat of Vader somehow warrants a complete and utter disregard of the principles that makes him who he is.

[Darth Cronos the Proud]

His principles, like his oath to destroy the Sith and protect the Republic?And the fact Anakin's choice destroyed the fucking Republic doesn't mean anything to you? The only thing upon which you base your criteria is that he had a good motive for destroying the Republic, and stayed true to it?

If you'd reread my post, I said his principles were loyalty to people, NOT abstract ideas like the Republic or the Jedi Order. When confronted with the choice between the Jedi Order/Republic and his family and friends (Padme and Palpatine) he made the choice that was consistant with his principles, and the fact is that his choice was to save Padme, not destroy the Republic. The destruction of the Republic was a biproduct of his choice to save the women he loved.

Padme's principles were always selfless, then she goes against those principles in a moment of selfish indignation, while Anakin is consistant.

So, now you're saying Padme didn't love Anakin. Why don't you go back and watch Episodes I, II, and III again, and then see if you can say that again with a straight face.

How could you possibly get that from my quote? There isn't anything in that quote that could even remotely be construed to mean that I think Padme doesn't love Anakin! You can have selfish indignation towards someone you love. That she did, and the result was catastrophic for the Galaxy, is what I said. Why don't you go back to third grading reading class again, and then see if you can misconstrue my quote again like that with a straight face.

To go even further, Anakin's choice alone did not condemn the Galaxy, it took Padme's rejection to seal the deal.

Bullshit. Anakin's choice alone destroyed the Jedi and created the Empire; Padme's rejection was a natural outgrowth of his choice, and was almost inevitable once Padme learned what he had become.

No, no, no. Anakin's choice destroyed the Jedi, but if Padme had said yes, the Republic would have been recreated under Padme's guiding hand. And you can't postulate that wthout Padme making a choice Anakin made the Empire because the fact remains that Padme DID have a choice, and she chose poorly (to paraphrase Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade.) And as for as Padme's choice being a natural outgrowth of Anakin's choice, why don't you stop being a hypocrite by babying Padme and let her take responsability for her non-sonsistant, shitty, Galaxy dooming choices the way you're trying to make Anakin do.

And don't try calling me a hypocrite, because I'm consistant in my criteria for judging both Anakin and Padme. I realize that they don't have 20/20 hindsight, so I don't expect Anakin to know where his actions will take him. I merely look at what he knows and what his personality is and see that he had no other choice. As for Padme, she should have known that because Anakin had done all this for her, she had him wrapped around her finger. All she had to do was join him, then guide him into reestablishing the Republic. She allowed her horror (and selfish indignation) to override her normal principles of helping others (which would have been accomplished by not rejecting Anakin and sending him into the arms of the Emperor.)

[Darth Cronos the Proud]

What a fucking dumb assertion. Just because Obi-Wan didn't outright charge Vader means he had no intention of killing him? Just like how Obi-Wan had no intention of killing Grievous since he didn't unleash a surprise blow to Grievous' head when he had the perfect opportunity?

It's funny how you immediately dismiss the Jedi Code Obi-Wan follows, insisting that the threat of Vader somehow warrants a complete and utter disregard of the principles that makes him who he is.

The comparison between the Obi-Wan/Grievous and the Obi-Wan/Vader fight is erroneous. Yoda and the rest of the Jedi did not view Grievous as a terrible threat to the Order the way Yoda saw Anakin and Palpatine, that's why in the Grievous incident, the Code still had to be obeyed. And what I said was that the failure of a sneak attack, as well as the lecturing, is proof of hesitation, and the only logical reason for hesitation is Obi-Wan's desire to try to turn him back and only kill im if that failed, and any sane perosn does not try to bring someone back from the wrong side if they are resigned to kill them from the start. And for Yoda to order two assasinations, and to participate in one of them, is a break from the Code! Remember the fight between Windu and Palpatine. Windu says that he has to kill Palpatine because he is too dangerous to be left alive and Anakin's response is that it's against the code! Case closed on that one.

[Surlethe]

His principles, like his oath to destroy the Sith and protect the Republic?And the fact Anakin's choice destroyed the fucking Republic doesn't mean anything to you? The only thing upon which you base your criteria is that he had a good motive for destroying the Republic, and stayed true to it?

If you'd reread my post, I said his principles were loyalty to people, NOT abstract ideas like the Republic or the Jedi Order. When confronted with the choice between the Jedi Order/Republic and his family and friends (Padme and Palpatine) he made the choice that was consistant with his principles, and the fact is that his choice was to save Padme, not destroy the Republic. The destruction of the Republic was a biproduct of his choice to save the women he loved.

You laud a choice which destroyed an entire fucking nation, and placed it under the tyrannical rule of an emperor, a reign which cost the lives of billions, trillions of people, because Anakin stayed consistent with his principles? What the fuck kind of morals do you have?

Padme's principles were always selfless, then she goes against those principles in a moment of selfish indignation, while Anakin is consistant.

So, now you're saying Padme didn't love Anakin. Why don't you go back and watch Episodes I, II, and III again, and then see if you can say that again with a straight face.

How could you possibly get that from my quote? There isn't anything in that quote that could even remotely be construed to mean that I think Padme doesn't love Anakin! You can have selfish indignation towards someone you love. That she did, and the result was catastrophic for the Galaxy, is what I said. Why don't you go back to third grading reading class again, and then see if you can misconstrue my quote again like that with a straight face.

And you hadn't considered loyalty to Anakin is one of Padme's principles? She had loyalty enough that she was willing to give up her job, give up everything you claim she held above Anakin, for him. Shit, after she realizes the man she has loved for years -- for whom she is bearing a child -- has become twisted, turned against everything she holds dear, and betrayed her, you expect her to think rationally?! What the hell are you smoking? The irrational behavior she exhibited is precisely the consequence of her love, and for you to claim all she exhibits is "moment of selfish indignation" clearly indicates you have no grasp of the emotional pain she's going through whatsoever; for you to even expect her to be able to think rationally requires you to deny the fact she loves Anakin.

To go even further, Anakin's choice alone did not condemn the Galaxy, it took Padme's rejection to seal the deal.

Bullshit. Anakin's choice alone destroyed the Jedi and created the Empire; Padme's rejection was a natural outgrowth of his choice, and was almost inevitable once Padme learned what he had become.

No, no, no. Anakin's choice destroyed the Jedi, but if Padme had said yes, the Republic would have been recreated under Padme's guiding hand.

I expect you support this claim with evidence.

And you can't postulate that wthout Padme making a choice Anakin made the Empire because the fact remains that Padme DID have a choice, and she chose poorly (to paraphrase Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade.)

What the fuck are you smoking, moron? The Empire existed before Padme's choice!

And as for as Padme's choice being a natural outgrowth of Anakin's choice, why don't you stop being a hypocrite by babying Padme and let her take responsability for her non-sonsistant, shitty, Galaxy dooming choices the way you're trying to make Anakin do.

Non-consistent choices, when she's constantly put Anakin above the Republic? What the fuck do you think she'd do upon learning of his betrayal, think rationally?

And don't try calling me a hypocrite, because I'm consistant in my criteria for judging both Anakin and Padme. I realize that they don't have 20/20 hindsight, so I don't expect Anakin to know where his actions will take him. I merely look at what he knows and what his personality is and see that he had no other choice.

Oh, I won't call you a hypocrite for that; I'll call you an immoral asshole who praises Anakin's decision because he was consistent, and ignores the fact he condemned the entire fucking galaxy.

As for Padme, she should have known that because Anakin had done all this for her, she had him wrapped around her finger. All she had to do was join him, then guide him into reestablishing the Republic. She allowed her horror (and selfish indignation) to override her normal principles of helping others (which would have been accomplished by not rejecting Anakin and sending him into the arms of the Emperor.)

She should have realized this, and judged logically? You've never had a relationship and then been involved in a breakup, have you? You think someone can think logically when reality comes crashing down on her and shatters what she wants to believe? You claim to be realistic; how the hell do you think Padme would see all of this amid her realization Anakin has betrayed her and the Republic?