Ramblings: Morality and the Force, Evilness and the Darkside

Shroom Man 777 · Post by **Shroom Man 777** » 2006-01-06 11:18am

I have a question. Is the darkside more of a One Ring tempting thing, ala LOTR, or is it more of just being evil? Because aside from being able to read minds, shoot mind bullets and play around with a sword, Force-adepts don't really strike me as different from normal folk. Sure, they got powers, but their actions are still theirs. They still have free-will. Right?

So, my question is, is the light side/dark side more of a good and evil thing, or is there something else? Anakin did an evil thing, and he became a Bad Guy, like how a guy decides to set a nun on fire and becomes a Bad Guy - because he decided to do so, because he was a dick, not because of some fancy pantsy energy field spreading its legs and beckoning him for some butt secks. Right? Or was it because the darkside really did seduced him?

Can we really say that the darkside seduced him like how the One Ring fucked Smeagol up? Or is the darkside seduction just a metaphor, like how in those cartoons you've got a tiny devil popping on your shoulder, telling you to set nuns on fire (thus making the darkside not exclusive to just Dark Jedi and Sith, but Bad People in general)?

To put it simply, if Clark Kent was a whiny shit, and eventually Lex Luthor convinced him to join him and conquer the Earth, is he also falling into the darkside?

Post by **Surlethe** » 2006-01-06 11:28am

The dark side draws on passion, anger, hate, etc.; those emotions aren't inherently "evil", so it itself is not inherently "evil". However, in order to draw on them, one must focus inward: "I want this; I hate you; I am pissed off by this", etc. This inward focus, and the fact the emotions which fuel the dark side are inherently turbulent and don't lend themselves to rational calculation, essentially cut a dark side user off from other people, making him like a childish four-year-old: the center of the universe (witness Anakin choking Padme in an irrational fit, e.g.). So the dark side skews a Jedi's perception, and, because it is so easy to become permanently angry, the dark side continually tempts him; once a Jedi falls to the dark side, he will be permanently ensnared by both the slanted perception and the ease of utilization. That's the way I see it, at least.

Shroom Man 777 · Post by **Shroom Man 777** » 2006-01-06 11:32am

Basically, it makes you an anti-social, self-centered asshole?

But does this just happen to any Force sensitive who does not deny himself normal human emotion? Or does this happen to folks who, even without Force powers, are prone to becoming assholes?

Publius · Post by **Publius** » 2006-01-06 03:41pm

According to the Dark Empire Sourcebook:

The Dark Side, in comparison, is the force of entropy and destruction. Chaos and rage feed it and are its sources of power. The Dark Side is a part of nature — it is not inherently evil, but evil comes from its irrationality, its intolerance and its lack of control. Bestial and predatory, domination is its goal. Mercilessly aggressive and unforgiving, its adherents are blinded by greed and lust for power over those weaker than themselves.

The Light and Dark Side manifest themselves in the way they are used; they are simply different interpretations of a single aspect of nature, and they exist in balance with themselves and the universe.

The Light is positive. It is intimately bound with the essence of living things; it is peace, harmony and knowledge. The Light Side springs from the great pattern of existence. It draws strength from diversity and tolerance. It is also inherently communal in nature, thriving on cooperation. Those emotions that enhance the existence of the whole flow from it and tap into its great reserves of strength and peace. Patience, humility and self-sacrifice are paths to enlightenment. Above all, it seeks harmony and perfection.

The Dark Side, in comparison, is the force of entropy and destruction. Chaos and rage feed it and are its sources of power. The Dark Side is a part of nature — it is not inherently evil, but evil comes from its irrationality, its intolerance and its lack of control. Bestial and predatory, domination is its goal. Mercilessly aggressive and unforgiving, its adherents are blinded by greed and lust for power over those weaker than themselves.

The Light and Dark Side manifest themselves in the way they are used; they are simply different interpretations of a single aspect of nature, and they exist in balance with themselves and the universe.

Just as with any aspect of life and death, both the Dark Side and the Light Side are intertwined with each other, are necessary to each other and form a cosmic balance. The important matter is avoiding the emotions of anger and hate which summon the Dark Side. By concentration, it is possible to go beyond desire and emotion, and thereby grow very powerful in the Light Side of the Force. Then great things are possible.

Eframepilot · Post by **Eframepilot** » 2006-01-06 03:45pm

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Basically, it makes you an anti-social, self-centered asshole?

But does this just happen to any Force sensitive who does not deny himself normal human emotion? Or does this happen to folks who, even without Force powers, are prone to becoming assholes?

I think it's only Jedi and the like who can truly be truly "seduced by the dark side". The dark side amplifies negative emotions in a vicious cycle to make even previously good folk into anti-social, self-centered assholes as you said. If Anakin was just a guy with a machine gun, he might not have gone quite so berserk on the Tusken Raider village; likely tapping into the dark side made him more genocidal. There's still a degree of free will, but it's reduced; by ROTJ, Vader believed that he could not defy his master, at least directly.

Post by **Surlethe** » 2006-01-06 03:52pm

Eframepilot wrote:... by ROTJ, Vader believed that he could not defy his master, at least directly.

Not to send this on a tangent, but I'm not so sure Vader is convinced he can't defy the Emperor; I think his offer to Luke in ESB still stands, and he's just biding his time, hoping Luke turns to the dark side. I mean, Vader has always wanted more power, even from before his fall to the dark side, and he's vocalized his ambition at least once before ESB, so I get the feeling he's biding his time, relying on Luke to turn, and then, with Luke, making a move on the Emperor.

Post by **Surlethe** » 2006-01-06 03:58pm

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Basically, it makes you an anti-social, self-centered asshole?

But does this just happen to any Force sensitive who does not deny himself normal human emotion? Or does this happen to folks who, even without Force powers, are prone to becoming assholes?

Well, there are presumably sociopaths in the SW galaxy, so antisocial, self-centered assholes who aren't force-sensitive definitely exist. However, the point of the dark side is it is omnipresent for all force-users, and a constant temptation to abuse normal human emotions: to use rage and anger as a source of power, rather than merely let them coexist. As Yoda teaches Luke, the dark side is an easy path to the Force, so it draws on natural human weaknesses: the desire for power, and inherent laziness. I'd imagine those weaknesses go for any sentient, force-sensitive being; as an aside, whether or not an individual can become Force-sensitive only able to sense the Light side would be an interesting philosophical discussion, I think.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2006-01-06 04:02pm

Surlethe wrote:
Eframepilot wrote:... by ROTJ, Vader believed that he could not defy his master, at least directly.
Not to send this on a tangent, but I'm not so sure Vader is convinced he can't defy the Emperor; I think his offer to Luke in ESB still stands, and he's just biding his time, hoping Luke turns to the dark side. I mean, Vader has always wanted more power, even from before his fall to the dark side, and he's vocalized his ambition at least once before ESB, so I get the feeling he's biding his time, relying on Luke to turn, and then, with Luke, making a move on the Emperor.

This is reflected in the RoTJ novelization. Both of their plans were that Luke turns first, train and then Vader was more assured in that when Luke is fully realized of the power of the Dark Side, Luke will join him rather then the Emperor.

The novel makes it implicit that Luke was not fully ready when facing Vader down to defeat the Emperor at that stage.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2006-01-06 09:26pm

Personally my theory, one i;ve started else where is that the Darkside is axactly like the effect of the One Ring of Power. To use the Darkside is make it stronger. In ANH Luke asked Obi-wan if the Force controlled a Jedi's actions, the reply was "partially". I think that with the Darkside it's a lot more than partially. Using the Darkside is more than using the Force for evil. It's surrendering you very will to the dark animalistic instincts.

Also case in question when Palpatine names Anakin Vader he certainly didn't seem himself. It was almost like he was channeling the Darkside and it was speaking through him.

SpacedTeddyBear · Post by **SpacedTeddyBear** » 2006-01-06 10:04pm

I've always thought of the Darkside as an amplification of our own undesirable tendencies. Since Jedi rely on their mental discipline when wielding the force, when they do something that is of the darkside in nature, they are more heavily effected.

Nephtys · Post by **Nephtys** » 2006-01-06 10:20pm

I figured the Darkside was 'Ambition'. And the Light was 'Restraint'.

Unchecked ambition leads to desiring power and destroying for the sake of one's own gain. Too much restraint leads to stagnation and rotting from within. Both destroyed their wielders (Palpatine/Sith, too ambitious... Jedi Order, too restrained.)

000 · Post by **000** » 2006-01-07 12:38am

There is no light or dark side. Just the force. The terms are purely metaphorical.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2006-01-07 02:28am

It seems more that Jedi are susceptible to corruption by the so-called Dark Side for the very reason that Jedi doctrine creates an irreconcilable division between the two aspects and expects its adherents to fully embrace Light and deny Dark. A good example is the syndrome when a good little kid discovers that some of what he's been taught all his life is a lie; having had the edifice of his beliefs shattered, the natural reaction is a wholesale rejection of the doctrines he's been inculcated in. Many such individuals become prey to a new controlling influence and are very heavily swayed by it —to the point of adopting the new belief wholesale in a very reactionary manner to "seal" the rejection of the old lie. I would say that Anakin Skywalker fell because he had Jedi doctrine drummed into his head for most of his life and was confronted with a conflict between it and the more messy complexities of real life that he was ill-equipped to deal with; whereas Luke Skywalker managed to resist the lure of corruption because he had grown up knowing both sides of life —the good and the bad, Light and Dark.

Helps when you're not brought up in a bubble.

Shroom Man 777 · Post by **Shroom Man 777** » 2006-01-07 05:20am

Pastor's Daughter Syndrome? Hey, I think that makes a lot of sense.

If Anakin was just a guy with a machine gun, he might not have gone quite so berserk on the Tusken Raider village

On the contrary, if I were a guy with a machinegun and my mother died in my arms because of those savages, I WOULD kill them. The men, the women, the children, I'd empty my machinegun on those animals! And you know what? Unlike Anakin, I wouldn't feel guilty at all. Fuck them.

And it also helps that most folks think the Raiders are nothing but animals.

The dark side amplifies negative emotions in a vicious cycle to make even previously good folk into anti-social, self-centered assholes as you said.

Hey, ever noticed how the only ones whose fall into the darkside we've seen were Jedi who had issues and were already fucked up in the head? I mean, if Anakin thought Obi was fucking Padme, and if he were a normal guy, he'd still get a baseball bat and mash Obi's face in - darkside or no darkside. And then he'd probably punch Padme in the face, too.

However, the point of the dark side is it is omnipresent for all force-users, and a constant temptation to abuse normal human emotions: to use rage and anger as a source of power, rather than merely let them coexist. As Yoda teaches Luke, the dark side is an easy path to the Force, so it draws on natural human weaknesses: the desire for power, and inherent laziness. I'd imagine those weaknesses go for any sentient, force-sensitive being; as an aside, whether or not an individual can become Force-sensitive only able to sense the Light side would be an interesting philosophical discussion, I think.

Hmmm... its the temptation to abuse your powers, right? Well, in that case, the darkside isn't really exclusive to Force users then. In a way, you could say that Clark Kent was seduced to the darkside if he used his heat vision to melt people he didn't like.

Post by **Surlethe** » 2006-01-07 08:59am

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Hmmm... its the temptation to abuse your powers, right?

I'd think it's a little more involved than that; not necessarily the abuse of powers, but rather the derivation of powers from negative emotions, and once the Force-user's viewpoint has been significantly skewed, the abuse will naturally follow.

Well, in that case, the darkside isn't really exclusive to Force users then. In a way, you could say that Clark Kent was seduced to the darkside if he used his heat vision to melt people he didn't like.

In a way, but it wouldn't be The Dark Side of the Force for Superman.

Darth Cronos the Proud · Post by **Darth Cronos the Proud** » 2006-01-07 09:12am

It definitely has to do with emotions and intentions, because in one of the EU books, Luke encounters a group of force users who are being manipulated by a Dark Jedi into doing things that would be considered of the Dark Side, but because they though they were helping their people they didn't turn (sorry, but I don't remember what the book or the characters were called, does anyone remember?) That's why I was so confused when Luke, in the NJO series, was acting like a pussy and was like "we can't go on the offensive against the Vong, that leads to the Dark Side" and Kyp was almost like "you're a dick" then went all offensive, tricked some other Jedi into going with him, and kicked some Vong ass (like destroying a partially grown world ship.)

Guardsman Bass · Post by **Guardsman Bass** » 2006-01-07 11:44am

If we can include the novel Shatterpoint in this, then it seems like the Dark Side may be the more 'natural' use of the Force, since it draws on basic instincts that every living being has, and is intuitive. An example of this was in book in the form of Kurt Vastor, a very powerful force-user who never received official force training. However, he was able to control its powers using the drives he had. It wasn't necessarily evil, but more a kind of animalistic force manipulation.

Shroom Man 777 · Post by **Shroom Man 777** » 2006-01-07 01:50pm

Darth Cronos the Proud wrote:It definitely has to do with emotions and intentions, because in one of the EU books, Luke encounters a group of force users who are being manipulated by a Dark Jedi into doing things that would be considered of the Dark Side, but because they though they were helping their people they didn't turn (sorry, but I don't remember what the book or the characters were called, does anyone remember?) That's why I was so confused when Luke, in the NJO series, was acting like a pussy and was like "we can't go on the offensive against the Vong, that leads to the Dark Side" and Kyp was almost like "you're a dick" then went all offensive, tricked some other Jedi into going with him, and kicked some Vong ass (like destroying a partially grown world ship.)

Hey, if Lex Luthor fools Superman into using his heat laser on a giant monster, one that happened to be herbivorous and sentient and friendly but loud and "accident-prone" and having accidentally wandering into metropolis in search for its babies, Superman wouldn't be a supervillain, even though he did something that would make children cry.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2006-01-08 03:57am

Shroom Man 777 wrote: Hey, if Lex Luthor fools Superman into using his heat laser on a giant monster, one that happened to be herbivorous and sentient and friendly but loud and "accident-prone" and having accidentally wandering into metropolis in search for its babies, Superman wouldn't be a supervillain, even though he did something that would make children cry.

I don't know. Remember the Superman in exile series? The one where he killed the 4 kryptonite super-villians and was tormented by guilt, turning into a vigilante that used violence(ala batman)? And how as a result of this, he believed he was a villian?

Morilore · Post by **Morilore** » 2006-01-10 09:43pm

I adopt the position that Dark Side users fuel their powers with their passions, and if you could get what you wanted or otherwise do neat things like telekenesis by acting like an angry asshole, you would rapidly become an angry asshole.

xerex · Post by **xerex** » 2006-01-17 11:51am

Darth Cronos the Proud wrote:It definitely has to do with emotions and intentions, because in one of the EU books, Luke encounters a group of force users who are being manipulated by a Dark Jedi into doing things that would be considered of the Dark Side, but because they though they were helping their people they didn't turn (sorry, but I don't remember what the book or the characters were called, does anyone remember?) That's why I was so confused when Luke, in the NJO series, was acting like a pussy and was like "we can't go on the offensive against the Vong, that leads to the Dark Side" and Kyp was almost like "you're a dick" then went all offensive, tricked some other Jedi into going with him, and kicked some Vong ass (like destroying a partially grown world ship.)

I think you're refering to the Jenesuuri from "I Jedi" It was a bit confusing but apparantly since most of their actions were defensive or protective in nature they hadnt fallen to the dark side despite being trained by a Dark Jedi.

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » 2006-01-17 12:21pm

That's why I was so confused when Luke, in the NJO series, was acting like a pussy and was like "we can't go on the offensive against the Vong, that leads to the Dark Side" and Kyp was almost like "you're a dick" then went all offensive, tricked some other Jedi into going with him, and kicked some Vong ass (like destroying a partially grown world ship.)

Yeah, Kyp has the right idea. I just don't get what Jacen was trying to prove in the earlier books in the NJO. 'No Anakin, you can't fire Centrepoint which will save an entire system and people from destruction, not to mention hugely aiding the NR in this war for the very survival of our galaxy's races, and probably having repurcussive effects which will result in BILLIONS of lives being saved. You can't do it because its not a very nice thing to do, and if you do I'll sulk in a corner. You have to leave it up to this random guy to do it, even though he'll blow away a full 3/4 of the Hapan fleet with it, severely damaging our war effort, and damaging Centrepoint, potentially a weapon which can turn the tide of this war and save many more billions.'
What?!?!?! Is this guy insane? What sort of a protector is he if he allows billions to die because it might make him feel a bit guilty to save them?

dworkin · Post by **dworkin** » 2006-01-17 03:28pm

Think of it this way.

Imagine you have the force. Now unless you are a genuine copper bottomed saint you will become a robber baron businessman, tyrant of a nation or criminal boss.

You can read minds, kill with a thought and predict the future.
And you really can kill with a thought. No need to worry where your gun is, bam! That SoB is dead.
You also can't be held by normal authorities. Mind control, mind reading and the ability to kill in a really scary way would make prosecution impossiable.

You can take what you want, when you want and no-one can stop you. You are also quantifiably better than all arround you too.
Like I said you may be a genuine saint, but, lets be realistic.

And to an outside observer you are evil.

The Jedi know all these temptations are out there and so recruit at a very young age and teach the initiates a strict aesthetic code and sense of duty to the Republic.

This is so when the padawan sees the mega-wealthy businessbeing with females dripping of every limb he will say "I desire not wealth or the allure of mere sensual pleasure. It is transitory."
Or when he sees the 'President' of the 'Peoples Republic of Magooda", an entity with his own personal starfleet and able to command millions on a whim he can say "I desire this not either".

This is because if a force user ever got it in their head to do these things they would climb over the pile of bodies neccessary far harder and hotter.

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2006-01-17 04:27pm

Fear is the path to the dark side... fear leads to anger... anger leads to hate.. hate leads to suffering.

Remember a Jedi can feel the Force flowing through him.
You mean it controls your actions?
Partially, but it also obeys your commands.

A bit cliché, but these quotes sum up my view of the dark side rather well. It's a spiral, once you start using it, it will push for you to use more of it, and the higher you go, the more stuck in the spiral you get. It seems that all living things are either in the light or the dark side, even animals. Breaking a bad habit is hard enough for normal people, I imagine that the pressure is much higher for force users. Sort of like giving up smoking compared to giving up heroin. It seems that you can skirt the edge between light and dark without grave consequences, but it's easy to "fall deeper", just like with, say, smoking. That "no light or dark side" of the unified force theory is just glorified crap if you ask me.

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2006-01-17 04:52pm

What i'd like to know is, what makes a Sith a Sith aside from being a powerhungry, megalomaniac Force-user? Can somebody be a Sith without being able to use the Force?