How many Dark Jedi served in the GE?

[SCVN 2812]

Does it make a difference that she really never seemed to understand that the Emperor was evil? She was taken and indoctrinated at a very early age and came to see Palpatine as every bit the great and gentle leader and all and all noble, father figure that the Old Republic / Imperial propaganda machine cultivated. In that regard - granted the Thrawn trilogy is a bit hazy - she was not acting all that differently from the Old Republic Jedi, apprehending or eliminating people she understood to be threats to the grand, noble and orderly society her mentor, practically her father was trying to create.

When she finally broke free of the brainwashing she did understand the enormity of what she had done and while still being aggressive, did more or less recant her loyalty to the Emperor after she finally realized him post mortem for the monster he was.

[Lord Pounder]

Difference was the old Jedi went out and mediated for the Chancellor and eventually Commanded the Army of the Republic. Mara Jade however assassinated, planted speeder bombs and the like. Thats a big difference.

[Illuminatus Primus]

She was, but Luke (and herself) seem to come to the conclusion that she was never actually "Dark". Something about her never really accepting Palpatine's methods. It was confusing.

Considering Master Skywalker's aspirations vis-à-vis Mara Jade and select portions of her anatomy, it takes little effort to find his theology suspect. One does not need to embrace the dark side knowingly in order to be immersed in it (the planet Katharsis was inundated in the dark side despite the absence of any Force sensitives in its brutally oppressive regime). Mara Jade was a thief, spy, and assassin for the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known, and she did it willingly. The idea that her actions 'did not count' because she didn't 'mean it' is offensively stupid, amounting to little more than an elaborate attempt to dodge personal responsibility.

I disagree. His assertion was that her actions were based out of the idea of serving the state, rather then furthering her own ambitions. Compare this with the Jedi Order of the Republic era - They willingly acted as spies (numerous examples in the Clone Wars), thieves (largely in conjunction with the spying), and in the rare cases assassins (Mace Windu's assassination of a crime lord in Tales and his attempted assassasintion of a lawfully elected politician and of Count Dooku, Kenobi's attempted coup on Ord Cestus) for both the Jedi Council and the Office of the Supreme Chancellor (held by the most powerful Sith Lord known). Yet the actions of the Jedi Order are not regarded as dark.

The Eichmann defense is okay as long as its Star Wars? Huh?

[Ender]

Considering Master Skywalker's aspirations vis-à-vis Mara Jade and select portions of her anatomy, it takes little effort to find his theology suspect. One does not need to embrace the dark side knowingly in order to be immersed in it (the planet Katharsis was inundated in the dark side despite the absence of any Force sensitives in its brutally oppressive regime). Mara Jade was a thief, spy, and assassin for the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known, and she did it willingly. The idea that her actions 'did not count' because she didn't 'mean it' is offensively stupid, amounting to little more than an elaborate attempt to dodge personal responsibility.

I disagree. His assertion was that her actions were based out of the idea of serving the state, rather then furthering her own ambitions. Compare this with the Jedi Order of the Republic era - They willingly acted as spies (numerous examples in the Clone Wars), thieves (largely in conjunction with the spying), and in the rare cases assassins (Mace Windu's assassination of a crime lord in Tales and his attempted assassasintion of a lawfully elected politician and of Count Dooku, Kenobi's attempted coup on Ord Cestus) for both the Jedi Council and the Office of the Supreme Chancellor (held by the most powerful Sith Lord known). Yet the actions of the Jedi Order are not regarded as dark.

The Eichmann defense is okay as long as its Star Wars? Huh?

Not at all. The Eichmann defense was that wrong acts were ok so long as they are ordered by a higher oficial. My point here is that based on what we've seen of the theology of the Force, these were not wrong acts.

Everything Mara did that we find morally repugnant was also done by the Jedi of the old republic; yet it was not of the dark side. I suspect this is the basis of the statement "A Jedi i not a creature of morals". Therefore to claim she was serving the dark side because she committed acts we view as wrong in service of a dark lord of the sith is contradictory to what we know about the old Jedi order.

[Sunstreaker]

You are still wrong. She no matter what way you look at it she was using the Force in many cases for assassination and espionage. Using a Dark Lord of the Sith as inspitation. That makes a Darksider no matter what kind of spin you put on it and no matter how poorly trained she was.

We are at an impasse then as she used palps as a source of the force, and her actions and more importantly, intent, define her "class".

Point 1:

Mara Jade was not a jedi during the GE so she can not be a dark jedi.

Point 2:

Mara Jade's actions where that of a soldier, she did what she was ordered to for the good of the empire and her emperor. Soldiers actions can be appalling but aren't necessarily evil. Thus she was not using the dark side of the force, thus she is not a dark jedi.

You'd have to show that she was both "dark" and of jedi level force use to show she was a dark jedi and it goes against what happens in the Trawn Trilogy because she obviously was not close to jedi level.

[Lord Pounder]

For someone not "close to Jedi Level" she certinly became a Master pretty quickly.

I'll concede that she wasn't a Jedi but not that she wasn't a Darksider. The "I was just following orders bullshit has been pulled by soldiers for years, most notibly by members of the German Army in WW2, it doesn't wash and never will. She was doing all Palpatines dirty work. She used the Force to accomplish many of her jobs. This means she was using the Darkside, there are no shades of gray here.

[Ender]

For someone not "close to Jedi Level" she certinly became a Master pretty quickly.

I'll concede that she wasn't a Jedi but not that she wasn't a Darksider. The "I was just following orders bullshit has been pulled by soldiers for years, most notibly by members of the German Army in WW2, it doesn't wash and never will. She was doing all Palpatines dirty work. She used the Force to accomplish many of her jobs. This means she was using the Darkside, there are no shades of gray here.

I love the way you are consistently ignoring my points to keep repeating your beliefs. Especially since I have covered everything you keep saying.

I guess the difference is I want to debate, and you simply want to witness.

[Plushie]

Mara Jade never made it to Jedi status, light or dark, until after the Thrawn trilogy. She wasn't a dark Jedi, but she was a force adept.

She had no intent of over throwing the Emperor so she wasn't portrayed dark Jedi, or Sith, like Vader or Dooku. She was a servant who could use the force completely loyal to the Emperor’s will. She was a weapon.

But as Zahn described it, she was unique in that she drew the force from Palpatine himself. She was not proficient at using the force without Palps to hold her hand. She was not a Jedi in the least in the days of the GE.

Her abilities and intents were a gray area somewhere in between light and dark.

She was clearly not a jedi and clearly not dark nor light so she was not a dark Jedi.

Sorry for the thread highjack. I wanted to clearify my previous statment.

You are still wrong. She no matter what way you look at it she was using the Force in many cases for assassination and espionage. Using a Dark Lord of the Sith as inspitation. That makes a Darksider no matter what kind of spin you put on it and no matter how poorly trained she was.

It's made pretty clear during the entire Prequel Trilogy that the difference between the Light side and the Dark side isn't so simple as "Good" and "Evil". Notice that the thing they always mention in reference to the Prophecy is "Balance", not necessarily the defeat of evil. Basically, Dark Siders/The Sith represent Chaos whereas the Light Siders/The Jedi represent a sort of Moral Order, which is ironic because Palpy's regime had a genocidal perversion of this as their central ideal ("The New Order").

Look at the way they use their powers -- Dark side powers tend to include things like Force Lightning and choking someone by crushing their throat, Light side powers include things like augmented one's self to be able to deflect blaster bolts and avoid danger by using the force to jump very high and far. One side uses the force as THE attack in an all-out offensive way, whereas the other side uses the force in the attack, as part of the overall plan. The Dark side attack is impulsive and powerful, the Light side attack can only really help as part of a ordered movement.

The dark side is generally associated with emotions and passion. In TPM, Darth Maul paces impatiently when the shields in the Theed palace cut him off from Qui-Gon.

The light side is generally associated with passiveness and concentration. Qui-Gon meditates during the same situation.

This, presumably, has some sort of effect on the Force itself. I don't know how others might react to me positing this, but I think of the Force as a sort of less physical (but arguably more powerful, as it seems to have a say in Fate itself) analog with the Warp in WH40K. It reacts to the way it is used and the personality of the person using it. I actually think that the "balance" of the Force has an actual effect on how things are going in the galaxy. Times when the Dark side is waxing are times of war and conflict, but times when the Light side is growing more power are times of peace.

Mara's actions sort of fit into neither of them simply because of all of that. "Evil", morally reprehensible actions are not necessarily part of the Dark side, but actions that bring imbalance to the overall picture of the galaxy do do that. Regardless of whether or not it was for the Evil Sith Lord, what she did generally was in the furtherence of Order. The fact that she DID do it for the Evil Sith Lord, though, kind of helped the Chaos he promoted, so it balances out.

[Sarevok]

Look at the way they use their powers -- Dark side powers tend to include things like Force Lightning and choking someone by crushing their throat, Light side powers include things like augmented one's self to be able to deflect blaster bolts and avoid danger by using the force to jump very high and far. One side uses the force as THE attack in an all-out offensive way, whereas the other side uses the force in the attack, as part of the overall plan. The Dark side attack is impulsive and powerful, the Light side attack can only really help as part of a ordered movement.

A somewhat unrelated question. Is there something such a light side only power at all ? I mean would not the Sith be able to anything a Jedi can do ?

[Lord Pounder]

I disagree. His assertion was that her actions were based out of the idea of serving the state, rather then furthering her own ambitions. Compare this with the Jedi Order of the Republic era - They willingly acted as spies (numerous examples in the Clone Wars), thieves (largely in conjunction with the spying), and in the rare cases assassins (Mace Windu's assassination of a crime lord in Tales and his attempted assassasintion of a lawfully elected politician and of Count Dooku, Kenobi's attempted coup on Ord Cestus) for both the Jedi Council and the Office of the Supreme Chancellor (held by the most powerful Sith Lord known). Yet the actions of the Jedi Order are not regarded as dark.

The Eichmann defense is okay as long as its Star Wars? Huh?

Not at all. The Eichmann defense was that wrong acts were ok so long as they are ordered by a higher oficial. My point here is that based on what we've seen of the theology of the Force, these were not wrong acts.

Everything Mara did that we find morally repugnant was also done by the Jedi of the old republic; yet it was not of the dark side. I suspect this is the basis of the statement "A Jedi i not a creature of morals". Therefore to claim she was serving the dark side because she committed acts we view as wrong in service of a dark lord of the sith is contradictory to what we know about the old Jedi order.

As i pointed out earlier my belief is that the Jedi had been corrupted by taking part in these actions on behalf of the Republic, thats why it was so easy for one Sith Lord to cloud their pre-cog to the point where they could be in the same room as that Sith Lord and not detect him.

[Publius]

The Jedi Order is a particular religious cult, of course. It has its own standards of morality and ethics, which do not necessarily coincide with those of other societies. Being a Jedi, of course, requires that one both be sufficiently sensitive to the Force – e.g., Tallisibeth "Scout" Enwandung-Esterhazy was in danger of being relegated to the Agricultural Corps because of her weakness in the Force - and undergoing the particular training of the Jedi Order.

Quite apart from Jade's sensitivity to the Force and her particular affiliation, she does not appear to have undergone actual Jedi training at any point – Qui-Gon Jinn's Jedi-centric description of lightsaber swordsmanship as "the Jedi arts" notwithstanding – , and so it can be readily agreed that she was not a dark Jedi, not having been a Jedi of any kind.

Now, let us consider, then, whether or not she was in fact affiliated with the dark side of the Force.

In the first place, the dark side is not synonymous with evil; in The Empire Strikes Back Yoda simply identified it with anger, fear, and aggression, all of which are natural emotions, which all humans (and probably all sapient beings in general) experience. The Dark Empire Sourcebook identifies the dark side with "the force of entropy and destruction," associated with "chaos and rage," but nevertheless "a part of nature" that is "not inherently evil," but is characterized by adherents who are "mercilessly aggressive and unforgiving." It also points out that the light side and the dark side "manifest themselves in the way they are used," being "different interpretations of a single aspect of nature."

The conscious use of the Force for self-aggrandizement or domination is not necessary for the dark side to take hold. As mentioned earlier, the members of the ruling Syndicat of Phindar were said to be steeped in the dark side in Jedi Apprentice: The Hidden Past, despite the fact that none of them were sensitive to the Force. Sate Pestage was said to have "Dark Side Points" in the Dark Empire Sourcebook, without the telltale "This character is Force-sensitive" note in his gaming statistics, and he was said to be "tireless both in his loyalty and dedication to the Emperor." Here is a telling point: Pestage also did what he did out of loyal service to the Emperor, and yet he collected 'dark side points'.

How is this different from Mara Jade? Indeed, how could he collect 'dark side points' from being the Emperor's factotum, while she collects none as his personal assassin? The Heir to the Empire Sourcebook writes that she was "an extension of his own dark evil," and "exposed traitors, brought down enemies, and helped control the mindless bureaucracies through subterfuge and violence." Indeed, she rather enjoyed her role as the Emperor's pet, having "prestige, power, respect and purpose," and then "lost it all when the Emperor died." "For that," the sourcebook writes, "she has vowed to kill Luke Skywalker." Her desire to kill him was not solely the product of the Emperor's last command; she wanted to kill him, out of revenge for his having taken her privileged life from her. The Dark Force Rising Sourcebook goes one step further, saying "she was trained in the Dark Side of the Force," and shows that she too had accumulated 'dark side points.'

The fact is that Mara Jade was not a soldier; the whole purpose of the Emperor's Hand is to create an irregular agent existing outside the system, not bound by any of the rules or standards of conduct governing the Empire's police and military forces. She used violence and murder out of loyalty to an increasingly authoritarian, repressive regime, and was very likely a murderer even under Imperial law. To infiltrate and assassinate is an act of aggression writ large; regardless of her motivation, and regardless of whether her actions as Emperor's Hand were evil – that is a question of morality quite apart from the 'dynamological' question of light/dark – , they were acts of the dark side of the Force.

Surely, the Emperor himself regarded her as being "neither light nor dark" in Mara Jade: By the Emperor's Hand, and he was probably referring to her training rather than her role. Certainly she was not his first Emperor's Hand, nor his last; other Emperor's Hands were unambiguously dark side cultists, ranging from the Lord Cronal, a former Prophet of the Dark Side, to the violent and psychopathic Vess Kogo, to the equally devoted and loyal master swordsman Jeng Droga (Droga's unambiguous dark side affiliation and his fierce loyalty to the Emperor give the lie to Skywalker's reasoning in Vision of the Future, as he too did all that he did out of devotion to the Emperor). The 'neither light nor dark' probably refers to the fact that she was not given any training specific to any of the various Force cults with which he was familiar (e.g., the Jedi, the Sith, the Krath, the Heresiarchs, the Jarvashqiine, &c.). This is, of course, admittedly speculative, but necessary given the explicit statement by the omniscient narrator in the Dark Force Rising Sourcebook that Jade was trained in the dark side.

Ulic Qel-Droma also fell to the dark side out of a desire to serve and protect, intending to infiltrate the Krath in order to learn their secrets and destroy them, thereby removing the danger they posed to the Galactic Republic. Unlike Jade, he had the additional defense that he was not even in his right mind at the time, as he was under the influence of Sithian poisons injected into his blood by Satal Keto in Tales of the Jedi: Dark Lords of the Sith – one might even argue that he may not have been fully able to control his actions. Yet is there any dispute that he, too, fell to the dark side, even before he openly embraced his role as Sith Apprentice?

As regards the Jedi Order in the last days of the old Republic, the mere fact that the Jedi did something does not prove that those things were of the light side. Indeed, the label "Jedi" does not imply dynamological purity; Jedi are as capable of acting in the dark side as mundane Phindian crime lords are – after all, were not many of the most vicious Sith Lords first trained as Jedi Knights? Were not Exar Kun, Ulic Qel-Droma, Darth Revan, Darth Melak, Darth Tyranus, and even Darth Vader members of the Jedi Order before they fell to the dark side? Furthermore, when Master Jedi Quinlan Vos acted as a spy, thief, and assassin, there was widespread concern that he had fallen to the dark side, even though this was part of a strategy to which the Jedi High Council itself had agreed. "Schism" and Yoda: Dark Rendezvous show that there were even dissident Jedi Knights who refused to fight in the Clone War any further, having concluded that the Jedi Order was wrong to support the corrupt Republic.

Mace Windu in particular is no great guide to 'correct' behavior, seeing that his preferred fighting style was said to be extremely aggressive, involving opening "the gates that restrain one's inner darkness," leading through "the penumbra of the dark side." This is a man who was willing to launch a cloister coup d'état when he decided that it was time for Supreme Chancellor Palpatine to leave office, quite regardless of the Senate's opinion on the matter, and was quite willing to take control of the Senate, as well. But even Windu shied away from the term 'assassination' in Attack of the Clones, claiming that the Count of Serenno could not possibly have been responsible for the attempt on Senator Amidala's life, assassination being "not in his character."

Certainly Yoda was disappointed in the Jedi Order by the time of Labyrinth of Evil: "Drawn into the mistakes of the Republic, the Jedi had been. But knowingly, and sometimes with full comlicity. Allowed the dark side to take root, the Jedi had. Allowed arrogance to infect the Order, the Jedi had. A priority, holding on to power had become. Inflated by their own conquests, the Jedi became." In Revenge of the Sith, he concluded that the Jedi had been wrong all along, that "war itself had become the dark's own weapon." Implicitly, then, in Yoda's opinion, the Jedi had in fact become unwitting pawns of the dark side.

None of this is to say that Mara Jade was evil or necessarily a criminal (although she very likely was that). The morality of her actions is another matter entirely; that is not something that this author is interested in debating. Rather, the suggestion that she was not of the dark side because she was a thief, spy, and assassin for a good cause is what is being contested. Skywalker's reasoning would absolve her of responsibility for her acts, and, taken to its logical extension, would allow any act, provided that there were a selfless motivation (curiously, this ethical standard was conspicuous by its absence during the Vong war, as surely the defense of the galaxy against brutal and ruthless mass-murdering invaders would permit aggression against the Vong, if filial devotion to a mass-murdering war criminal permits aggression against traitors and dissidents within the Empire).

[Noble Ire]

Ulic Qel-Droma also fell to the dark side out of a desire to serve and protect, intending to infiltrate the Krath in order to learn their secrets and destroy them, thereby removing the danger they posed to the Galactic Republic. Unlike Jade, he had the additional defense that he was not even in his right mind at the time, as he was under the influence of Sithian poisons injected into his blood by Satal Keto in Tales of the Jedi: Dark Lords of the Sith – one might even argue that he may not have been fully able to control his actions. Yet is there any dispute that he, too, fell to the dark side, even before he openly embraced his role as Sith Apprentice?

Are Mara Jade's origins before she was taken into Palpatine's service known in any detail? She had to have been only a child during most of Palpatine's reign; I think falling under the sway of the dark side at a young and unexperienced age might be comparable Qel-Droma's circumstance.

[Ender]

As i pointed out earlier my belief is that the Jedi had been corrupted by taking part in these actions on behalf of the Republic, thats why it was so easy for one Sith Lord to cloud their pre-cog to the point where they could be in the same room as that Sith Lord and not detect him.

A position you have utterly failed to support in any way shape or form. Hell, you haven't even attempted to back it, just stated it as fact. Doesn't work like that. And ROTS and its novel blow your idea that all the jedi were using the dark side completely out of the water.

[NecronLord]

The Eichmann defense is okay as long as its Star Wars? Huh?

In an unrelated manner, yes, I'd say it is, given that in Star Wars, one can be made to do things one would otherwise consider evil, due to chips in one's head, or any of the other manyfold indoctrination techniques warping one's ideas. As in Gen. Grievous. I would suspect that any Imperial who disobeyed orders and was caught would be subjected to such treatment.

[Lord Pounder]

As i pointed out earlier my belief is that the Jedi had been corrupted by taking part in these actions on behalf of the Republic, thats why it was so easy for one Sith Lord to cloud their pre-cog to the point where they could be in the same room as that Sith Lord and not detect him.

A position you have utterly failed to support in any way shape or form. Hell, you haven't even attempted to back it, just stated it as fact. Doesn't work like that. And ROTS and its novel blow your idea that all the jedi were using the dark side completely out of the water.

Ok i conceed the point, i didn't consider the EU when I proposed my theory.

[Crazy_Vasey]

Look at the way they use their powers -- Dark side powers tend to include things like Force Lightning and choking someone by crushing their throat, Light side powers include things like augmented one's self to be able to deflect blaster bolts and avoid danger by using the force to jump very high and far. One side uses the force as THE attack in an all-out offensive way, whereas the other side uses the force in the attack, as part of the overall plan. The Dark side attack is impulsive and powerful, the Light side attack can only really help as part of a ordered movement.

A somewhat unrelated question. Is there something such a light side only power at all ? I mean would not the Sith be able to anything a Jedi can do ?

In the computer games I've played the Dark Side can't heal. It can suck the life force from others to accomplish the same thing but it can't truly heal. I have no idea if that extends to the rest of canon though.

[Noble Ire]

In the computer games I've played the Dark Side can't heal. It can suck the life force from others to accomplish the same thing but it can't truly heal. I have no idea if that extends to the rest of canon though.

Palpatine keeps Vader alive on the journey from Mustafar back to Coruscant. That would seem to be a "healing " ability. Also, Vader attempts to heal some of his internal injuries with the force in SotE, but he is unable to make much progress, likely due to Palpatine's manipulation.

[Crazedwraith]

In the computer games I've played the Dark Side can't heal. It can suck the life force from others to accomplish the same thing but it can't truly heal. I have no idea if that extends to the rest of canon though.

Palpatine keeps Vader alive on the journey from Mustafar back to Coruscant. That would seem to be a "healing " ability. Also, Vader attempts to heal some of his internal injuries with the force in SotE, but he is unable to make much progress, likely due to Palpatine's manipulation.

Actually Vader completely heals himself with the Dark Side in SotE but his joy at being whole cuts him off from the darkside and the healing is non-permanent.

[thejester]

Considering Master Skywalker's aspirations vis-à-vis Mara Jade and select portions of her anatomy, it takes little effort to find his theology suspect. One does not need to embrace the dark side knowingly in order to be immersed in it (the planet Katharsis was inundated in the dark side despite the absence of any Force sensitives in its brutally oppressive regime). Mara Jade was a thief, spy, and assassin for the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known, and she did it willingly. The idea that her actions 'did not count' because she didn't 'mean it' is offensively stupid, amounting to little more than an elaborate attempt to dodge personal responsibility.

I disagree. His assertion was that her actions were based out of the idea of serving the state, rather then furthering her own ambitions. Compare this with the Jedi Order of the Republic era - They willingly acted as spies (numerous examples in the Clone Wars), thieves (largely in conjunction with the spying), and in the rare cases assassins (Mace Windu's assassination of a crime lord in Tales and his attempted assassasintion of a lawfully elected politician and of Count Dooku, Kenobi's attempted coup on Ord Cestus) for both the Jedi Council and the Office of the Supreme Chancellor (held by the most powerful Sith Lord known). Yet the actions of the Jedi Order are not regarded as dark.

The Eichmann defense is okay as long as its Star Wars? Huh?

How is that the Eichmann defence? Sounds more like the German army's ("we did it for the country, not the man"), and the Western Allies bought that.