What if you were in Anakin's shoes ?

[Darth Cronos the Proud]

I merely stated that Vader was a potential threat. You seem to use the 20/20 hindsight crap for this one. You have to put yourself in Obi-Wan's shoes, not your own. EVEN IF VADER WAS TOO WEAK, HOW COULD OBI-WAN KNOW THAT? How fucking thick can you be?

You say my idea that Vader might have been too consumed with rage to do the studd I said, he might have been able to do. Why? You need a certain amount of concentration to use Foce Powers. Ever been so full of rage that you couldn't think straight. Same principle.

I refuse to accept your theory of Obi-Wan was resigned to kill Anakin from the start and that the lecture was merely to totally make sure he was unreachable (which, as I've stated earlier is retarded because then Obi-Wan would skill have to kill him if by some miracle Anakin came back) because YOU HAVE, AFTER NUMEROUS REQUESTS, FAILED TO BACK IT UP WITH EVIDENCE!

But enough of this. You're obviusly too tick in the head, and you'll constantly float your bizzare theory as proven even without the proof I'll undoubtadly continue asking for, as well as using 20/20 hindsight to give characters knowledge they couldn't possibly know just to "prove" one of your points, which will launch me into another round of trying to explain to you that you can't do this for purposes of this thread. And of course you'll ignore that and go on and on and on until my brains hurts and I have an aneurism. So I'll leave you to think you've "proven" something and go find someone else to discuss SW realted things with.

[Pint0 Xtreme]

I merely stated that Vader was a potential threat. You seem to use the 20/20 hindsight crap for this one. You have to put yourself in Obi-Wan's shoes, not your own. EVEN IF VADER WAS TOO WEAK, HOW COULD OBI-WAN KNOW THAT? How fucking thick can you be?

Perhaps maybe the fact that Vader wasn't attacking indicated to Obi-Wan that he could not? Wow, what an shocking revelation!

You say my idea that Vader might have been too consumed with rage to do the studd I said, he might have been able to do. Why? You need a certain amount of concentration to use Foce Powers. Ever been so full of rage that you couldn't think straight. Same principle.

Would you like some salt with that red herring? Obviously, me pointing out the irrelevancy of this matter flew over your head when you read my previous post. Of course, you still don't want to admit that Vader was a defenseless being regardless of whether or not he actually had the ability to attack.

I refuse to accept your theory of Obi-Wan was resigned to kill Anakin from the start and that the lecture was merely to totally make sure he was unreachable (which, as I've stated earlier is retarded because then Obi-Wan would skill have to kill him if by some miracle Anakin came back) because YOU HAVE, AFTER NUMEROUS REQUESTS, FAILED TO BACK IT UP WITH EVIDENCE!

Backtracking now, are we? What happened to your "But Obi-Wan didn't sneak attack" or "Obi-Wan was actually 'reasoning' with Vader" arguments? You told me to point out a rebuttal you failed to address and after restating it for the umpteeth time, you still fail to address it. Tsk tsk tsk.

Of course your silly ranting about a lack of evidence would actually have some real credence if it weren't for the fact that I directly cited the movie and the obvious implications of the motives of the characters from the dialogue. But I see you've decided to ignore that too. How unsurprising.

But enough of this. You're obviusly too tick in the head, and you'll constantly float your bizzare theory as proven even without the proof I'll undoubtadly continue asking for, as well as using 20/20 hindsight to give characters knowledge they couldn't possibly know just to "prove" one of your points, which will launch me into another round of trying to explain to you that you can't do this for purposes of this thread. And of course you'll ignore that and go on and on and on until my brains hurts and I have an aneurism. So I'll leave you to think you've "proven" something and go find someone else to discuss SW realted things with.

So, you completely ignored my points when after I took the time and courtesy to repeat them for you and then think that somehow if you instead rhetorically decry my so called "lack of evidence" while attacking my argument by making silly remarks about 20/20 hindsight when the answer is clearly in your fucking face, that you somehow think you can convince myself and others of your argument. Did you know that your behavior is clearly against the rules of this board?

[Surlethe]

Oh, I won't call you a hypocrite for that; I'll call you an immoral asshole who praises Anakin's decision because he was consistent, and ignores the fact he condemned the entire fucking galaxy.

Whoa, touched a nerve, huh. I'm sorry (not really) if it offends you that my morals and principles say that I do anyhting for the people I love, including damning an entire Galaxy. I guess morals are like assholes, everyone has them and there are different kinds.

And your morals smell like shit; the fact you would damn trillions of sentient lives, if given a rational choice, for one person means you are immoral by any reasonable code.

You've never had a relationship and then been involved in a breakup, have you?

Been in a relationship? Check. Pretty heartwrenching breakup (where she did the dumping)? Got one of those under my belt. Pertains to this situation? Bzzz. Error. It wasn't a breakup, it was in essence a lover's argument,

No, it was a breakup, you stupid fuck, because there was no way in hell Padme could reconcile herself with Anakin, hence lines like "You're going down a path I can't follow", and then Anakin choking her when Obi-Wan shows up; even if it were only a lovers' argument, you still have to demonstrate the Padme was thinking rationally. Any six-year-old can see she was in incredible emotional pain, and if you expect her to think rationally in such a circumstance, you're an incredible idiot.

and if Padme was in love with Anakin (which she was) then she should have tried to do anyhting for him (like helping him). And the most clear way to do that is...join him!

So, you do believe Padme wasn't in love, you liar. As to how you can expect her to join Anakin, when he has changed drastically -- he killed children, for fuck's sake! -- you have yet to establish your assumption she should think rationally when in ungodly pain.

What the fuck are you smoking, moron? The Empire existed before Padme's choice!

In name only. I wasn't until after Yoda failed to kill Palpatine and Obi-Wan spared Vader that they both were able to solidify their hold on the government. If Padme had joined Anakin, they would have killed Palpatine and Palpatine's Empire would have just been an Empire of words.

No, Anakin would have taken over, you moron, and then the Empire would have splintered because he is an incompetent statesman.

She had loyalty enough that she was willing to give up her job, give up everything you claim she held above Anakin, for him

Not everything. She still held democracy above Anakin, or else she woulda joined him and became a Sith Queen (for a time.)

Only a mind-numbing imbecile would think she held her duty to the Republic above Anakin when she was willing to carry her child to term for him, since that meant the Queen would remove her from the Senate.

[Sidewinder]

What's all this shit about Anakin taking over the government? Sure he talked about it, but how was it ever really going to happen? Okay, so he kills Sidious. Then what?

It took Palpatine decades of skilled political manuvering before he was in a position to take power. What's Anakin going to do? Chopping Palpatine's head off on the Senate floor and yelling "Ok, I killed him! So I'm king now!" isn't going to go very fucking far.

Anakin's too arrogant to admit he doesn't have the necessary political and diplomatic skills, and too ambitious to NOT try to take power.

[Archon]

Pointing out the obvious:

The only way Anakin could possibly succesfully take control of the Empire is by having Padme and the Senate on his side.

[Surlethe]

Pointing out the obvious:

The only way Anakin could possibly succesfully take control of the Empire is by having Padme and the Senate on his side.

And the Senate, with the exception of a group of six (IIRC), loves Palpatine: he's the hero who brought them alive through the Clone Wars and the unforeseen Jedi rebellion. I don't think Anakin -- hero though he is in his own right -- cutting off the head of the leader and savior of the Republic is going to do much good for his image.

[Noble Ire]

And the Senate, with the exception of a group of six (IIRC), loves Palpatine: he's the hero who brought them alive through the Clone Wars and the unforeseen Jedi rebellion. I don't think Anakin -- hero though he is in his own right -- cutting off the head of the leader and savior of the Republic is going to do much good for his image.

More than 2,000, actually.
That aside, you do have a point. However, I suppose Anakin might be able to stage coup by killing Palpatine and then claiming the Jedi remnant did it.

[Surlethe]

And the Senate, with the exception of a group of six (IIRC), loves Palpatine: he's the hero who brought them alive through the Clone Wars and the unforeseen Jedi rebellion. I don't think Anakin -- hero though he is in his own right -- cutting off the head of the leader and savior of the Republic is going to do much good for his image.

More than 2,000, actually.

*smacks head* Of course; the leaders who met with Palpatine were presenting a petition with 2000 signatures.

That aside, you do have a point. However, I suppose Anakin might be able to stage coup by killing Palpatine and then claiming the Jedi remnant did it.

I don't really think he has the finesse for this, though. Anakin is the good, old-fashioned, frontal-assault type.

[Archon]

Pointing out the obvious:

The only way Anakin could possibly succesfully take control of the Empire is by having Padme and the Senate on his side.

And the Senate, with the exception of a group of six (IIRC), loves Palpatine: he's the hero who brought them alive through the Clone Wars and the unforeseen Jedi rebellion. I don't think Anakin -- hero though he is in his own right -- cutting off the head of the leader and savior of the Republic is going to do much good for his image.

Well, the Delegation of the 2000 opposes Palpatine. But most of them seem to be heavily Republican.

I doubt Palpatine's loyal supermajority would support Anakin and not many of the Delegation of 2k would either. Anakin basically has no power base at any point in time.

[Lord Pounder]

If Anakin was to kill Palpatine would Palpatine's staff serve Anakin. People like Mas Amedda, Sly Moore etc would have a good idea about Palpatines day to day business and who he had dirt on. If Anakin can get them to join him, and keep his wife to gain trust with the 2000 rebel senators he has a good chance of taking over. Ofcourse how long he'll hold it is another matter. No Order 66 means a lot of Jedi are still around to oppose a coup.

[Surlethe]

If Anakin was to kill Palpatine would Palpatine's staff serve Anakin. People like Mas Amedda, Sly Moore etc would have a good idea about Palpatines day to day business and who he had dirt on. If Anakin can get them to join him, and keep his wife to gain trust with the 2000 rebel senators he has a good chance of taking over. Ofcourse how long he'll hold it is another matter.

This, of course, assumes Padme joins Anakin, which is highly questionable; Anakin alone certainly couldn't do it.

No Order 66 means a lot of Jedi are still around to oppose a coup.

Err, aren't we talking about after Order 66 and assuming Anakin survives Mustafar?

[Pint0 Xtreme]

Funny. I had presumed that by the end of the Clone Wars, the Senate lost most of its power. Now that the Republic has been transformed into the Empire, you'd think that the power rests in its military and the regional governors that the Emperor has appointed to oversee their respective territories. If Darth Vader can eliminate Palpatine and successfully declare himself Emperor, then I don't see how the Senate can do anything to stop him. If he has the military and the regional governors by his side, he can do whatever he wants regardless of how the senators feel towards him.

[Lord Pounder]

IIRC the OP started what you do if you are Anakin after you cut off Mace's hand and he gets unlimited powered out the penthouse. Ofcourse i've had a bit to drink and may be confused.

[Surlethe]

IIRC the OP started what you do if you are Anakin after you cut off Mace's hand and he gets unlimited powered out the penthouse. Ofcourse i've had a bit to drink and may be confused.

You're right; that's my mistake. I was still thinking in the middle of my debate with Darth Cronos. Sorry 'bout that.

[Lord Pounder]

Funny. I had presumed that by the end of the Clone Wars, the Senate lost most of its power. Now that the Republic has been transformed into the Empire, you'd think that the power rests in its military and the regional governors that the Emperor has appointed to oversee their respective territories. If Darth Vader can eliminate Palpatine and successfully declare himself Emperor, then I don't see how the Senate can do anything to stop him. If he has the military and the regional governors by his side, he can do whatever he wants regardless of how the senators feel towards him.

He still needs to get those govenors on his side, govenors hand picked by Palpatine and his aides.

[Pint0 Xtreme]

He still needs to get those govenors on his side, govenors hand picked by Palpatine and his aides.

If Darth Sidious is eliminated, who else would they answer to? Who else would they look up to as the new leader of the Empire? Darth Vader had considerable power and was probably the Emperor's right hand man in almost everything. In fact, it was Darth Sidious' original plan that Vader would succeed him. In retrospect, Darth Vader appears to be the only heir and second command to the Emperor. If the Emperor is dead, the military answers to Darth Vader and it is all he would need to restore order and his will to the galaxy.

[Grasscutter]

Oh, I won't call you a hypocrite for that; I'll call you an immoral asshole who praises Anakin's decision because he was consistent, and ignores the fact he condemned the entire fucking galaxy.

Whoa, touched a nerve, huh. I'm sorry (not really) if it offends you that my morals and principles say that I do anyhting for the people I love, including damning an entire Galaxy. I guess morals are like assholes, everyone has them and there are different kinds.

So what happens if damning an entire galaxy goes against your loved one's morals and principles?

Anakin's trying to save Padme's life, but in doing so he's destroying the institution she devoted her entire life to upholding. Padme's shown that she's willing to die to protect freedom and democracy.

At best, Anakin's being incredibly arrogant and assuming that he and he alone will be able to make the galaxy a better place. He's willing to suspend freedom and democracy to carry out his agenda, and he assumes that in the end Padme will realize it's for the best.

At worst, he's being selfish and putting his desires before Padme's. He wants Padme alive no matter what and just doesn't give a fuck that she might not want to live in the world his actions create.

[Tychu]

Easier said then done. The Darkside is a very powerful thing. I've personally considered it to be very like the One Ring of Power from LotR. The Darkside speaks to you, convinces you your actions are just. It will twist you and use you. Just as the Lightside of the force obeys your commands and controls your actions the Darkside can too. "Once you start down the Dark path, forever will it hold your destiny" as one quite famous Master put it.

Anakin hadnt yet gone down the dark path persè at this point, He went into Palpatines office to stop the Jedi from killing Palpatine and then him losing his chance at saving Padmè. Right then his mindset is helping Padmè not wanting to take control of the galaxy. Anakin does know what he just did was stupid "What have I done!" he just dosent know what to do next. If Anakin attacked then Palpatine would have him in 2 seconds. His mind is not in a fighting mood and hes confused. Anakin did what he thought was right, he wanted to save Padmè the dark side really played no part

As for me, its kinda hard for me to believe that a girl like Padmè would show any interest in me so i wouldn't even have a reason to go to Palpatines office then and there and Mace would have killed him

[LordShaithis]

If Darth Sidious is eliminated, who else would they answer to?

Someone we haven't seen? Whoever in the Senate has the most political power? Certainly not some random Jedi.

Who else would they look up to as the new leader of the Empire?

See above. Hell, without Sidious, who's to say the government won't move back towards democracy?

Darth Vader had considerable power and was probably the Emperor's right hand man in almost everything.

To the Empire at large, Vader was largely a cipher. And if we're talking about late-era Vader, a cipher who's been going around strangling navy officers. Not someone the military is terribly likely to rally behind.

In fact, it was Darth Sidious' original plan that Vader would succeed him. In retrospect, Darth Vader appears to be the only heir and second command to the Emperor. If the Emperor is dead, the military answers to Darth Vader and it is all he would need to restore order and his will to the galaxy.

Vader was a big scary lackey with little in the way of official power, beyond the fact that everyone knew he was acting on behalf of the Emperor. With Sidious out of the picture, who has any reason to listen to him?

[Pint0 Xtreme]

Someone we haven't seen? Whoever in the Senate has the most political power? Certainly not some random Jedi.

Darth Vader is not some random Jedi. He is the Emperor's apprentice and right hand man. Why would anyone from the Senate be a more probable candidate when the Senate has little to no power? The political power of the highest position in the Senate is probably comparable to that of a lowly military officer.

See above. Hell, without Sidious, who's to say the government won't move back towards democracy?

Sidious has already reorganized the government into a totalitarian regime. You seem to think that the Senate is relevant; it is not. Their power has been shifted to the regional governors and they all answer only to the Emperor. Without a singular ruling entity, the entire Empire would collapse into chaos.

To the Empire at large, Vader was largely a cipher. And if we're talking about late-era Vader, a cipher who's been going around strangling navy officers. Not someone the military is terribly likely to rally behind.

I would hardly call someone who has control of the entire Imperial starfleet and the ability to kill high ranking Imperial officers without repercussions a mere cipher.

Vader was a big scary lackey with little in the way of official power, beyond the fact that everyone knew he was acting on behalf of the Emperor. With Sidious out of the picture, who has any reason to listen to him?

Because he is the Emperor's chosen heir and successor. It is Sith tradition. As the apprentice rises in power and overtakes his master, he becomes the new Sith Lord. That was Sidious' original plan. Both Vader and Sidious knew that Vader was supposed to become Emperor some day.

However, we all know the reason this didn't happen was because of that fateful day on Mustafar. Assuming an alternate Star Wars history where the duel on Mustafar never occurred or ended up differently, Darth Vader would probably have had a greater level of political ambition than he did in the actual story.

[LordShaithis]

Darth Vader is not some random Jedi. He is the Emperor's apprentice and right hand man. Why would anyone from the Senate be a more probable candidate when the Senate has little to no power? The political power of the highest position in the Senate is probably comparable to that of a lowly military officer.

Then you would probably see something akin to what happened when the Emperor died at Endor: A splintering of the Empire under various regional governors and military officers. Being the Emperor's "right hand man" does not make you the next in line if he dies. It makes you, well, a disembodied right hand.

Sidious has already reorganized the government into a totalitarian regime. You seem to think that the Senate is relevant; it is not. Their power has been shifted to the regional governors and they all answer only to the Emperor. Without a singular ruling entity, the entire Empire would collapse into chaos.

Which I suppose it would, without Sidious.

I would hardly call someone who has control of the entire Imperial starfleet and the ability to kill high ranking Imperial officers without repercussions a mere cipher.

He only has the power and leeway he does because others know he represents the will of the Emperor. With said Emperor out of the picture, Vader doesn't have the political power to take control of the galaxy himself.

Because he is the Emperor's chosen heir and successor. It is Sith tradition. As the apprentice rises in power and overtakes his master, he becomes the new Sith Lord. That was Sidious' original plan. Both Vader and Sidious knew that Vader was supposed to become Emperor some day.

Sith tradition means squat to the political and military apparatus of the Empire. The smart-mouthed officer who got himself choked in ANH didn't even seem to know what a Sith was. He considered Vader some sort of leftover Jedi Knight.

However, we all know the reason this didn't happen was because of that fateful day on Mustafar. Assuming an alternate Star Wars history where the duel on Mustafar never occurred or ended up differently, Darth Vader would probably have had a greater level of political ambition than he did in the actual story.

Speculation upon alternate Star Wars universes aside, Vader was NOT some sort of "vice-emperor" waiting to take over if the old man croaked.

[Pint0 Xtreme]

You can't dismiss the speculation of alternative universes. This entire thread presumes an alternative universe based on the OP with all the "If I were Anakin, I would avoid a Mustafar fight" claims. In the ANH era, Vader has little political power. In the late ROTS era before the fight on Mustafar, Vader is essentially the would-be Emperor. What good is the Sidious' plan for the Sith to rule the galaxy if his Empire falls apart the day he dies?

[Dahak]

He still needs to get those govenors on his side, govenors hand picked by Palpatine and his aides.

If Darth Sidious is eliminated, who else would they answer to? Who else would they look up to as the new leader of the Empire?

Wouldn't it be more likely that they fell back into old patterns? Elect a weak senator, and have the bureaucracy run wild? I doubt that they have cut that back by a lot...

[LordShaithis]

You can't dismiss the speculation of alternative universes. This entire thread presumes an alternative universe based on the OP with all the "If I were Anakin, I would avoid a Mustafar fight" claims. In the ANH era, Vader has little political power. In the late ROTS era before the fight on Mustafar, Vader is essentially the would-be Emperor.

In the ROTS era, before the fight on Mustafar, Vader is Anakin Skywalker: Political nobody.

What good is the Sidious' plan for the Sith to rule the galaxy if his Empire falls apart the day he dies?

Who knows? But he did eventually die, and it did fall apart.

[Pint0 Xtreme]

Wouldn't it be more likely that they fell back into old patterns? Elect a weak senator, and have the bureaucracy run wild? I doubt that they have cut that back by a lot...

I highly doubt it. The regional governors have control, not the Senate. Why in the world would they give their power back to the Senate or any bureaucratic run government?