science explaining religion

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AK_Jedi
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science explaining religion

Post by AK_Jedi »

I found this book review in the most recent issue of Scientific American
George Johnson wrote:If nowhere else, the dead live on in our brain cells, not just as memories but as programs--computerlike models compiled over the years capturing how the dearly departed behaved when they were alive. These simulations can be remarkably faithful. In even the craziest dreams the people we know may remain eerily in character, acting as we would expect them to in the real world. Even after the simulation outlasts the simulated, we continue to sense the strong presence of a living being. Sitting beside a gravestone, we might speak and think for a moment that we hear a reply.

In the 21st century, cybernetic metaphors provide a rational grip on what prehistoric people had every reason to think of as ghosts, voices of the dead. And that may have been the beginning of religion. If the deceased was a father or a village elder, it would have been natural to ask for advice--which way to go to find water or the best trails for a hunt. If the answers were not forthcoming, the guiding spirits could be summoned by a shaman. Drop a bundle of sticks onto the ground or heat a clay pot until it cracks: the patterns form a map, a communication from the other side. These random walks the gods prescribed may indeed have formed a sensible strategy. The shamans would gain in stature, the rituals would become liturgies, and centuries later people would fill mosques, cathedrals and synagogues, not really knowing how they got there.
With speculations like these, scientists try to understand what for most of the world's population needs no explanation: why there is this powerful force called religion. It is possible, of course, that the world's faiths are triangulating in on the one true God. But if you forgo that leap, other possibilities arise: Does banding together in groups and acting out certain behaviors confer a reproductive advantage, spreading genes favorable to belief? Or are the seeds of religion more likely to be found among the memes--ideas so powerful that they leap from mind to mind?

In Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon, Daniel Dennett, director of the Center for Cognitive Studies at Tufts University, has embarked on another of his seemingly impossible quests. His provocatively titled book Consciousness Explained made a persuasive effort to do just that. More recently, in Freedom Evolves, he took on free will from a Darwinian perspective.
This time he may have assumed the hardest task of all--and not just because of the subject matter. Dennett hopes that this book will be read not just by atheists and agnostics but by the religiously faithful--and that they will come to see the wisdom of analyzing their deepest beliefs scientifically, weeding out the harmful from the good. The spell he hopes to break, he suggests, is not religious belief itself but the conviction that its details are off-limits to scientific inquiry, taboo.

"I appreciate that many readers will be profoundly distrustful of the tack I am taking here," he writes. "They will see me as just another liberal professor trying to cajole them out of some of their convictions, and they are dead right about that--that's what I am, and that's exactly what I am trying to do." This warning comes at the end of a long, two-chapter overture in which Dennett defends the idea that religion is a fit subject for scrutiny. The question is how many of the faithful will follow him that far.

For those who do not need to be persuaded, the main draw here is a sharp synthesis of a library of evolutionary, anthropological and psychological research on the origin and spread of religion. Drawing on thinkers such as Pascal Boyer (whose own book is called Religion Explained) and giving their work his own spin, Dennett speculates how a primitive belief in ghosts might have given rise to wind spirits and rain gods, wood nymphs and leprechauns. The world is a scary place. What else to blame for the unexpected than humanlike beings lurking behind the scenes?

The result would be a cacophony of superstitions--memes vying with memes--some more likely to proliferate than others. In a world where agriculture was drawing people to aggregate in larger and larger settlements, it would be beneficial to believe you had been commanded by a stern god to honor and protect your neighbors, those who share your beliefs instead of your DNA. Casting this god as a father figure also seems like a natural. Parents have a genetic stake in giving their children advice that improves their odds for survival. You'd have less reason to put your trust in a Flying Spaghetti Monster.

At first this winnowing of ghost stories would be unconscious, but as language and self-awareness developed, some ideas would be groomed and domesticated. Folk religion would develop into organized religion, Dennett suggests, somewhat the way folk music bloomed into the music of today. The metaphor is hard to resist. "Every minister in every faith is like a jazz musician," he writes, "keeping traditions alive by playing the beloved standards the way they are supposed to be played, but also incessantly gauging and deciding, slowing the pace or speeding up, deleting or adding another phrase to a prayer, mixing familiarity and novelty in just the right proportions to grab the minds and hearts of the listeners in attendance."

Like biological parasites, memes are not necessarily dependent on the welfare of their hosts. One of the most powerful fixations, and one that may have Dennett flummoxed, is that it is sacrilegious to question your own beliefs and an insult for anyone else to try. "What a fine protective screen this virus provides," he observes, "permitting it to shed the antibodies of skepticism effortlessly!"
Asides like this seem aimed more at fellow skeptics than at the true believers Dennett hopes to unconvert. A better tack might be for him to start his own religion. Meanwhile his usual readers can deepen their understanding with another of his penetrating books.
What do you all think?

Can science explain religion, or should we keep science out of religion, just like we say, keep religion out of science?
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Post by nickolay1 »

Science already studies mental retardation. Why shouldn't it study religion?

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Post by The Aliens »

Religion is a psychiatric/psychological phenonmenon, why shouldn't science be able to explain people's tendency towards it? It's all in the mind to begin with, so we shuold be able to study the thought patterns that generate religious events.
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Post by Dalton »

Religion and science are mutually exclusive. One relies on faith, the other on observation.
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Post by Lord Woodlouse »

Dalton wrote:Religion and science are mutually exclusive. One relies on faith, the other on observation.
Mutually exclusive means one can not co-exist with the other. So that statement is clearly nonsense, mate.

Religion CAN negatively effect science. But conservative scientists CAN negatively effect science, too.

Saying they're mutually exclusive is like saying religion and politics are. Or politics and science. They're approaches to different things. They don't need to conflict.
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Re: science explaining religion

Post by Surlethe »

AK_Jedi wrote:What do you all think?

Can science explain religion, or should we keep science out of religion, just like we say, keep religion out of science?
By all means, explain religion with science. For people with faith, it's not going to unconvert them; they'll just praise it as another amazing tool God fashioned.
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Post by 4Tran »

Religions are not scientific, so it's generally sort of pointless to examine them at such a level. I think that the only interaction that should exist between the two is that science should study the effect of religion on people. For example, it would be interesting to see how religion will affect a person's biochemistry.
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Post by Surlethe »

4Tran wrote:Religions are not scientific, so it's generally sort of pointless to examine them at such a level. I think that the only interaction that should exist between the two is that science should study the effect of religion on people. For example, it would be interesting to see how religion will affect a person's biochemistry.
You're ignoring the distinction between scientifically examining what a religion says and examining what a religion is. The statements of a religion must be taken on faith, and are hardly scientific; however, do you take the existence of Christianity on faith? Any observable phenomenon is subject to scientific inquiry, and religion is quite observable.
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Post by Metatwaddle »

Surlethe wrote:
4Tran wrote:Religions are not scientific, so it's generally sort of pointless to examine them at such a level. I think that the only interaction that should exist between the two is that science should study the effect of religion on people. For example, it would be interesting to see how religion will affect a person's biochemistry.
You're ignoring the distinction between scientifically examining what a religion says and examining what a religion is. The statements of a religion must be taken on faith, and are hardly scientific; however, do you take the existence of Christianity on faith? Any observable phenomenon is subject to scientific inquiry, and religion is quite observable.
You just summed up what I wanted to say, except you said it much better than I could have.

Personally, I'll probably put the book on my reading list - it sounds fairly fascinating. I also would like to read some of his other books. My mind needs some stimulating lately.
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Post by Wyrm »

Dalton wrote:Religion and science are mutually exclusive. One relies on faith, the other on observation.
I don't think that's what this article is about. I think it's about explaining faith itself (and religion) as a human phenomenon, and therefore as valid subject matter for scientific study, rather than the usual "trying to reconcile faith and reason" bullshit you usually see when religion and science are mentioned in the same breath.
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Post by Straha »

Dalton wrote:Religion and science are mutually exclusive. One relies on faith, the other on observation.
They are mutually exclusive when one applies them to a personal guiding light, or to an explanation of the world. HOWEVER, one can turn science on Religion and use scientific methods to investigate Religion, much as science can be turned to investigate (according to some) history, or art.
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Post by Shogoki »

Sure science can explain religion, one day we will discover whatever gene makes our brain believe in magical beings and stuff.
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Post by AK_Jedi »

Shogoki wrote:Sure science can explain religion, one day we will discover whatever gene makes our brain believe in magical beings and stuff.
I think this is actually what Daniel Dennett's theory is trying to explain.

One of the things I find interesting about this argument is based on the oft-used argument, "I don't need to rationalize my religion because faith does not need rationalization" or something like that. What this book is doing is trying to do is rationally explain God, spirits, etc. regardless of the religion. I was pretty certain of the response I would get when I posted it here, but it is still an interesting discussion, especially when the theory says the people's belief in God, spirits, etc. is really just a figment of their imagination.
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Post by mr friendly guy »

Dalton wrote:Religion and science are mutually exclusive. One relies on faith, the other on observation.
I think it will be accurate to say that the methodologies of religion and science are mutually exclusive.
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Post by ntstlkr »

Cheers All,

I think Wyrm hit my thoughts exactly in that I don't think science can provide a rationalization for a particular faith but it can study it as a phenomenon. Perhaps not just looking at peaople of faith but also those without. It's been said that the need to believe in "something" is well nigh universal, said so many times we take it for granted. But honestly I think the opposite is the case. Yes, by numbers, the religious (and I include the spiritual in that) may out number the non-religious, but there is a significant number of people who are not at all religious and who feel no need for such beliefs. Why?
What makes one different from the other? What "causes" one individual to take on a faith and another individual not too?
In that respect science can observe and analyze religion but I seriously doubt religion can study science. Study and observation IS the essence of science, whereas it seems that religion does not seem to go out of its way to question things so much as to accept them in the context of whatever faith is being practiced.
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Post by wolveraptor »

I think the religious faith of most people is rooted in years of childhood indoctrination.
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