Rant regarding punks

[Doctor Doom]

I, myself, am a punk (which tends to raise a lot of eyebrows when it is brought up on internet forums like this, as people don't seem to expect a punk to be interested in such things as computer gaming, science fiction, and RPGs). Every day, I face a LOT of animosity from complete strangers. People shout out at me out of their cars (not that I can understand a damn word, Doppler effect and all that), and generally treat me like dirt if they get the chance. And this isn't unique to me, many people I know complain of similar treatment (and not just in the U.S., I have a Belgian punk friend who lives in Amsterdam who faces similar treatment).

Why? Why do punks seem to be universally disdained by mainstream society? The subculture itself represents individualism, antiauthoritarianism, individual freedoms, etc.. I have been accused of being a fascist, a communist, and an anarchist by people I don't know. The latter two I can sort of understand (many punks do accept anarchism, and famous punk rock artist Joe Strummer certainly had communist sympathies, though I personally reject both systems), but fascism? Hell, antifascism is perhaps the most common punk "theme" since the subculture began!

In fact, I myself have been called a SKINHEAD in public before. A skinhead. I have short, messy black hair (used to be in liberty spikes but I thought it looked dopey so I took them out). I wear combat boots, tight black jeans, an old ripped T-shirt, a leather jacket covered in studs and patches, sometimes a bandana, and a belt made out of police tape. On both of my shoulders I feature a patch I made that is clearly and obviously antifascist. And yet I am mistaken for a SKINHEAD.

So, my question to you all is this: why does mainstream society harbor open hostility towards punks, and, indeed, other subcultures?

As a footnote, there seems to be a huge misconception regarding punks, which I am going to try and clear up here. These are based on the stereotypes that people have applied to me over the years.

Punks do not promote violence. Hell, I and most of my friends are openly pacifist. I have never met a punk with a violent streak, except for one fellow with a foul temper which had nothing to do with being punk or not. Crass, a well-known punk band, even wrote a song criticizing punks that DO resort to violence.

Punks are not stupid. I consider myself a learned individual. I speak three languages quite fluently, I am well-read (how many people on the street even know who Pushkin or Tolstoy are?), I have a good vocabulary, and I could go on but I don't want to seem more arrogant then the last sentence already makes me about to be. For the most part, my friends and other people I have met are reasonably intelligent individuals. I do know a few high school dropouts, yes, but with the exception of one (who isn't much of a punk anyway), they dropped out because they WEREN'T CHALLENGED by public schools. I have a friend named Dave, for example, who dropped out of high school his junior year. He is one of the most intelligent people I know.

Punks are not reactionary/extremist. I won't lie and say there aren't some pretty extreme punks, but most punks are moderate. Hell, Michael Graves (a famous punk rock arist) is a diehard conservative. Two years ago I met Keith Warren (of the Adicts fame) and actually had an intelligent debate with him concerning censorship. I personally am a moderate with slight left-leanings. I have nothing but disgust for communism, I feel anarchism is misguided, and I personally believe that extreme leftists are damned fools. The whole point of punk is individualism and free thought, which rejects the very idea of it being a reactionary/extremist ideology. Hell, a British punk band called the Cocksparrers wrote a song where they related extreme leftism to the Final Solution.

So, I ask again: why does mainstream society harbor open hostility towards punks, and, indeed, other subcultures?



EDIT: Having re-read the above, I just want to add this disclaimer. I am no trying to paint punk in a way that makes it look better then other subcultures. I don't do that. Hell, I can think of a dozen different subcultures that I will happily define myself by without qualm. I don't think punk is better then anything else (okay, maybe I do, but I don't think it is better then everything else).

[General Zod]

So, my question to you all is this: why does mainstream society harbor open hostility towards punks, and, indeed, other subcultures?

Because no matter how much you might want to believe otherwise people do put a great deal of stock in appearance. If you want to be viewed respectably, then dress respectably. It's the same reaction gangbanger wannabes get, regardless if they're actually intelligent people.

[Solauren]

Dress like a sterotype, get treated like the sterotype

[sparrowtm]

So, my question to you all is this: why does mainstream society harbor open hostility towards punks, and, indeed, other subcultures?

I know quite a few punks myself, and consider some of them friends. Still, a good percentage of them leeches from society (public welfare for example) while being perfectly able to contribute to it both mentally and physically.

If this behaviour is indeed a prerequisite of punk culture, or a misunderstanding is often fiercely debated. Still, it is a cliché in peoples heads and because of that punks face open hostility.

[sparrowtm]

Le ghettó édît: remove the "many" in the first sentence.

[General Zod]

Le ghettó édît: remove the "many" in the first sentence.

You realise you can edit your own posts in off topic, right?

[sparrowtm]

You realise you can edit your own posts in off topic, right?

Aw crap. Now I do.

[Vicious]

You represent something which is different from the "norm" that society idolizes, and so you will be ostracized. This is simply a fact of society. It is, however, not a permanent state. The norm changes from generation to generation. As the counter-culture becomes more widely embraced and accepted, it ceases to be on the outside and becomes the norm, thus making way for a new counter-culture to form in response. Look at it this way: the norm now was the counter-culture thirty years ago (more or less). Societies are not static and unbending. They are a reflection of the citizens living within them. Over time, as people's attitudes change, so will societies impressions of what is normal and what is not. There will never be universal acceptance within society, it's just a fact. Tolerance, yes, but counter-cultures by their very nature arouse the ire of societies' adherants, because they represent a change from the norm. One day, the punk counter-culture may become the norm, and it'll cease to be reviled. In it's stead, some new counter-culture will rise up and oppose it. It's a ceaseless and natural cycle. People disassociate from what they perceive as common and mundane, seeking something special to identify with. As more people do this, it ceases to be special and becomes the very thing people were avoiding, and no one notices. This last part is the most important. We seek to be different, and yet at the same time we desperately want to belong to something larger than ourselves. This dichotomy lies at the heart of our psyche - to be different, yet to identify with others. Moreover, by identifying with a particular group, we reject others which represent something different. In the case of counter-cultures, this means rejecting what is accepted by society as the norm and this is the root cause of society's abhorrance of counter-cultures.

Ok, it's a little long-winded but I think my point made it through. Note that this is based simply on my understanding of society and people. I am not a psychologist nor a sociologist (though I'd like to be one someday). I simply applied logic to what I know of human nature and society.

[Trytostaydead]

In regards to sub-cultures when they say they promote individualism I cannot help but reflect upon the goths of South Park. "If you want to be a nonconformist you have to dress like us, talk like us, and think like us" or something like that.

But in all seriousness, yes, if you want to get taken seriously in society as a group (not on an individual basis per se), looks have a LOT to do with it.

[General Zod]

In regards to sub-cultures when they say they promote individualism I cannot help but reflect upon the goths of South Park. "If you want to be a nonconformist you have to dress like us, talk like us, and think like us" or something like that.

In other words, "I'm flaunting my individualism just like everyone else is."

[Trytostaydead]

In regards to sub-cultures when they say they promote individualism I cannot help but reflect upon the goths of South Park. "If you want to be a nonconformist you have to dress like us, talk like us, and think like us" or something like that.

In other words, "I'm flaunting my individualism just like everyone else is."

I'm not. I like Banana Republic, Gap and my underwear from Polo dammit!

[Doctor Doom]

But in all seriousness, yes, if you want to get taken seriously in society as a group (not on an individual basis per se), looks have a LOT to do with it.

Obviously. But the point I was trying to make is that there is an unwarranted negative stereotype of punks (and not just punks, I am sure other subcultures face similar issues).

Thanks, Vicious, for your analysis.

[Trytostaydead]

But in all seriousness, yes, if you want to get taken seriously in society as a group (not on an individual basis per se), looks have a LOT to do with it.

Obviously. But the point I was trying to make is that there is an unwarranted negative stereotype of punks (and not just punks, I am sure other subcultures face similar issues).

Thanks, Vicious, for your analysis.

So what's a good stereotype that differs punks from other subcultures that promote individualism, antiauthority, etc etc? Is there anything that being part of the punk group gives you and society as a whole? What is their main contribution to the forward movement of society?

[Doctor Doom]

Who says I want to be differentiated from other subcultures? I said in the original post how I am happy to be included in other subcultures. I am simply complaining of the fact that society seems to have decided that punks (and other subcultures) are detrimental to society, when they are not.

[Stark]

So in what way are you 'punk'? The 'punk' scene was already horribly commercialised and emasculated by the time the music became popular in the early 80s, and it's never been a significant movement. Being a 'punk' in the 21st century, with no Thatcher to beat on, seems ridiculous.

Frankly, that's why people sneer at subbies. It doesn't help that these groups are full of self-obsessed teenagers, it's that they're all largely superficial apeing of a 'significant' or 'notable' movement. Bleating about conformity is ridiculous: I hold extremely uncomformist views on politics, social issues, law and ethics. I don't, however, dress like a fucking retard, so I'm treated with respect.

I've met people who cling to these silly 'subcultures' who *aren't* idiots, but they're by far the minority. If you don't want to get treated like a fuckass, don't associate yourself in dress with other fuckasses. In an extreme example, would I cry foul if I dressed like a Klan member and people associated me with that group of fuckasses?

[GuppyShark]

Perhaps your experience with the culture isn't the same as society at large's.

Your OP was right, punks are associated with violent/criminal behaviour. One song doesn't make that go away.

The punk movement is unfortunately bigger than you and your circle of friends, and you're being tarred with the larger brush because you've chosen to join it.

[Dalton]

I don't necessarily hate punks or goths or emo. I just view them with a detached sort of fascination - after all, I am a part of the Geek subculture, but I dress like a Lumberjack.

The only subculture that really gets on my nerves are the angsty woe-is-me black candle and bad poetry brand of goth-like brats that cry about how their mother wants them to clean up their art.

[salm]

In fact, I myself have been called a SKINHEAD in public before. A skinhead.

Not all too bad. Lots of skinheads have quite a lot in common with punks. Hell, often a circle of friends consists of punks and skins and a lot of bands consist of punks and skins.
While a lot of skins are a lot less politically oriented, or at least politically in a different way - the whole working class thing - the two groups have other things in common. Same type of music, same hatred towards the upper classes, simillar partying habbits and partying locations, and so on.

Needless to say that these are not the racist type skinheads. But the racists are a minority anyway.

[Big Phil]

Personally I have contempt for subcultures because the people in those groups try way too hard to define themselves through these subcultures. Gangsta, punk, goth, skater, preppy, etc., - if you really feel the need to define yourself so rigidly I tend to view you with nothing but contempt.

In high school, I suppose I could have gone a number of routes - computer geek, jock, preppy, or minority - I didn't feel like only hanging out with one type of person, so I ended up with a lot of different kinds of friends and avoided being pigeonholed into one "type."

[Alan Bolte]

Vicious presents a wonderful explanation of why any subcuture seen as counter-culture will be distrusted at best. Stark, however, really gets to the heart of the matter. If, for example, you're younger than 30 and call yourself goth, you're a joke, because you just copied the movement, lost the context completely, and listen to music that differs greatly from that which began things. Actually, the fact that these subcultures effectively began and revolve around music makes them laughable in itself. The result is that many people who call themselves punk don't even know who the Ramones are, and are mostly focused on the look and the music. Some elements of punk dress and music have become remarkably mainstream. One might say these types are 'posers,' but when posers vastly outnumber punks, the distinction becomes lost to most people.

Have you ever seen the movie SLC Punk? You should, it's a fun watch.

[Aeolus]

So, my question to you all is this: why does mainstream society harbor open hostility towards punks, and, indeed, other subcultures?

Because no matter how much you might want to believe otherwise people do put a great deal of stock in appearance. If you want to be viewed respectably, then dress respectably. It's the same reaction gangbanger wannabes get, regardless if they're actually intelligent people.

I dont care how someone dresses when they are just hanging with thier friends but alot of people dont understand just how much appearance matters. People come into my work place all the time looking for jobs. If they are not dressed appropriately then thier skills and experience dont matter they simply wont be considered. I've see people come in for interviews all the time dressed as gangbangers and punks. The managers just tell us to tell them we are not hiring. Is it that hard to put on some khakis and a polo or button up for even 1 day to get a job?

[LadyTevar]

Forgive me, but I'm just amazed that the 'punk culture' is still going strong in your neck of the woods. Where I live, it was killed by the grunge culture by the start of the 90s, with insult-to-injury by the goth culture. Ten years later, grunge and goth lost to gangsta-wannabe.

[Surlethe]

Why do people define themselves as "punk"? Or that fucking annoying "gangsta"-wannabe shit? Or any other subculture, for that matter? It just limits potential, as well as making them look stupid.

[Doctor Doom]

Oi, there are a lot of posts. I don't have the time at the moment to go through them all, so I will address the comment that stood out.

Personally I have contempt for subcultures because the people in those groups try way too hard to define themselves through these subcultures. Gangsta, punk, goth, skater, preppy, etc., - if you really feel the need to define yourself so rigidly I tend to view you with nothing but contempt.

I understand that, but my personal experience is that the majority of people do not define themselves through a subculture so rigidly. Yes, some people do, but those people are fuckasses and in the minority.

[thejester]

Listen to God Save the Queen by the Sex Pistols and I'm sure you'll be able to figure it out.