Dissilusioned with the ICS (Or: The good old days)

[AdmiralKanos]

Your putting words in my mouth and you know it. You also changed the topic.

Oh really! Please explain how I have misrepresented your arguments. Is it not true that your argument is completely dependent upon deliberately separating factoid #1 and factoid #3 whenever it suits you?

As for changing the thread topic, too bad. I can split it or a mod can split it if anybody thinks it's that important, but the fact remains that in a thread about the ICS, you chose to claim that Curtis Saxton pulled the figures "out of his ass" and that they're "bullshit". I'm just attacking your bullshit.

[Alyeska]

Your putting words in my mouth and you know it. You also changed the topic.

Oh really! Please explain how I have misrepresented your arguments. Is it not true that your argument is completely dependent upon deliberately separating factoid #1 and factoid #3 whenever it suits you?

As for changing the thread topic, too bad. I can split it or a mod can split it if anybody thinks it's that important, but the fact remains that in a thread about the ICS, you chose to claim that Curtis Saxton pulled the figures "out of his ass" and that they're "bullshit". I'm just attacking your bullshit.

Had I actually claimed ICS was not valid for debate or had I posted caclulations of my own claiming them to be superior with no supporting evidence, that would indeed be bullshit. All I did was give my opinion of Saxton's cacls while acknowledging their position in the canon scale. That is not bullshit, its an opinion and should be treated as such.

[Stravo]

Just as a voice of reason here, let me add that Aleyeska is right in the sense that he's stating his opinion about Saxton and the ICS. He doesn't agree with the numbers and he thinks their bullshit, BUT he won't pull a Darkstar and say that the ICS does not exist or that its not canon.

It would be akin to a revised TNG Tech Manual: The Dominion War where suddenly we see 200 gigaton quantum torpedoes and teraton level shields on the Dominion battleships. We would ALL be screaming bullshit at those numbers but it would still be an official source.

So I suggest we cut Alyeska some slack on that point.

[jegs2]

My first reaction when the ICS came out was "Saxton is a god!"

After years of running off calcs and trying to prove this way and that way to the trekkies that the Empire would win, we finally had "200 Gigatons" and "Lucasfilm Ltd." within the same book. The ultimate weapon. A giant, cartoon foot to stomp down on the arguments of those who proclaimed that the Federation even stood a chance.

But it's beginning to wane on me. The novelty is gone. I miss the old days of combat. This new post-ICS era of a swift "One ISD could wipe out 1,000 Federation ships, and you are STUPID you trekkie fool" is boring to me.

It's like when you've been playing a computer game a long time in "normal" mode, and then you discover the cheat codes. You're like "hell yeah!" and stomp everything and win the game... but after a while the novelty of that soon wanes and you are left with the desire to try getting through the game as it was.

I now look with nostalgia on the old pre-ICS days... when victory wasn't so pathetically easy, when we actually had to fight for victory in some debates, when...

Is there anybody who is with me in feeling this way?

Not really ... Feddies never stood a chance against GE ISD's (unless all kinds of modifiers are necessarily thrown into the mix). But the Trekkies still have the Enigma Demigod Super-Races like Q and his ilk, so all is not lost for them. Additionally, other universes offer competition, like the Imperium of Man. Furthermore, there are races that would wipe their hindquarters with the GE, like the Culture. Feddies are okay for their own universe, but they would do well not to tangle with the GE...

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

Just as a voice of reason here, let me add that Aleyeska is right in the sense that he's stating his opinion about Saxton and the ICS. He doesn't agree with the numbers and he thinks their bullshit, BUT he won't pull a Darkstar and say that the ICS does not exist or that its not canon.

It would be akin to a revised TNG Tech Manual: The Dominion War where suddenly we see 200 gigaton quantum torpedoes and teraton level shields on the Dominion battleships. We would ALL be screaming bullshit at those numbers but it would still be an official source.

So I suggest we cut Alyeska some slack on that point.

Except that we would know that this "revised" manual doesn't jive with canon, and be able to prove it. When you say something is bullshit, especially around here, you're expected to be able to back it up. "That's just my opinion" is just a way to weasel out of having to defend a position he knows he can't.

[Alyeska]

Just as a voice of reason here, let me add that Aleyeska is right in the sense that he's stating his opinion about Saxton and the ICS. He doesn't agree with the numbers and he thinks their bullshit, BUT he won't pull a Darkstar and say that the ICS does not exist or that its not canon.

It would be akin to a revised TNG Tech Manual: The Dominion War where suddenly we see 200 gigaton quantum torpedoes and teraton level shields on the Dominion battleships. We would ALL be screaming bullshit at those numbers but it would still be an official source.

So I suggest we cut Alyeska some slack on that point.

Except that we would know that this "revised" manual doesn't jive with canon, and be able to prove it. When you say something is bullshit, especially around here, you're expected to be able to back it up. "That's just my opinion" is just a way to weasel out of having to defend a position he knows he can't.

Well actually I saw several people admit that not all of the EU Jives with ICS. You should also have noted that I acknowledged the point that the onscreen evidence does not explicitly contradict the ICS. So with ICS being very high on the order of canon because it is directly linked to a movie, any apparent contradiction between it and a lower level EU source automatically goes in favor of the ICS.

So I can indeed find stuff that doesn't jive with the ICS, its just from the wrong source.

[TheDarkling]

Just wondering 2 things.

1st Where is it stated the ICS ranks higher than the rest of the EU? or is it just something someone came up with (i.e not stated by Lucas and co).

2nd How is the ICS written - As if its Saxton commenting on SW tech or as if an "in universe" character (Bob the OR engineer) is writting the document, or isnt it clear?

Any answers would be appreciated, thanks.

[Alyeska]

Just wondering 2 things.

1st Where is it stated the ICS ranks higher than the rest of the EU? or is it just something someone came up with (i.e not stated by Lucas and co).

2nd How is the ICS written - As if its Saxton commenting on SW tech or as if an "in universe" character (Bob the OR engineer) is writting the document, or isnt it clear?

Any answers would be appreciated, thanks.

IIRC part of how the order of canon goes is that anything in the EU that is directly tied to a movie (as in radio dramas, novels, or manuals) hold higher status then general aimed tech manuals, reference books, novels, or comics.

[TheDarkling]

Arent the radio dramas and the novels canon ? and the rest is official.

As far as I have read its

Canon
Films
Novels
Radio Dramas

Official
EU
RPG Stuff

I hve sometimes seen EU split up into Books then comics then tech manuals (smoetimes those are reversed).

I dont recall closer to the films = more official (not really practicle since Shadows of the Empire is closer to the films so does it rank higher than Star by Star - that would get muddled).

[Alyeska]

Arent the radio dramas and the novels canon ? and the rest is official.

As far as I have read its

Canon
Films
Novels
Radio Dramas

Official
EU
RPG Stuff

I hve sometimes seen EU split up into Books then comics then tech manuals (smoetimes those are reversed).

I dont recall closer to the films = more official (not really practicle since Shadows of the Empire is closer to the films so does it rank higher than Star by Star - that would get muddled).

Well traditionally It got rated this way at SB.

Movies
Radio Dramas
Novelized movies

Novels
Tech Manuals
Comics
Games

But then at SB HDS stated that anything tied directly into a movie got a higher status rating over any normal EU stuff. I suppose this was his way to get the ICS bumped above the novels.

[TheDarkling]

What reasons did he give for thinking that? you got a link because it would the ISC falls under tech manuals, not that it really matters ince the conflicts with the EU arent enough to over rule the ICS anyway (unless someone spent a few years documenting everything in the EU that could give a fire power estimate and even then I doubt it would be enough).

[Col. Crackpot]

sadly many people in here are just warsie equivilants of gramme kennedy....

[CmdrWilkens]

Just wondering 2 things.

1st Where is it stated the ICS ranks higher than the rest of the EU? or is it just something someone came up with (i.e not stated by Lucas and co).

The line from Steve Sansweet (and Cerasi) goes that you get less official the further away from the movies you get (thus the reason why novelisations are higher-order than radioplays). By this logic EU material based directly off the movies is of greater authenticity (and authority) than material developed apart from the movies.

2nd How is the ICS written - As if its Saxton commenting on SW tech or as if an "in universe" character (Bob the OR engineer) is writting the document, or isnt it clear?

Any answers would be appreciated, thanks.

The ICS appears to be written as a technical examination by an omniscient third person in the SW universe.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Well traditionally It got rated this way at SB.

Movies
Radio Dramas
Novelized movies

Novels
Tech Manuals
Comics
Games

But then at SB HDS stated that anything tied directly into a movie got a higher status rating over any normal EU stuff. I suppose this was his way to get the ICS bumped above the novels.

That's not the way it's officially organised. What follows is what I've interpreted as how most organise SW Canon status.

I. CANON:

1. Films
1.A. SE Films
1.B. OV Films
2. Film script
3. Film novelisations
4. Radio Dramas

II. OFFICIAL (aka EXPANDED UNIVERSE [EU], SEMI-CANON, QUASI-CANON):

The heirarchy of Offical isn't really as tight as that of Canon, but it's generally regarded as such:

1. Novels, Dark Horse comics, and reference books (EG, ICS, VD, etc...) are in the first bracket. I'm assuming that the Ewok TV movies, SWHS, and Ewoks and Droids animated series also fit here. Some Marvel comics also fit here when they are refernced to in other Official.

2. RPG stats and guides (both WEG and WOTC) are in the second bracket. Game mechanics are not a very sound source for stats or calculations. I believe the old Collectable Card Game and current Trading Card Game are also here.

3. Video and computer games are pretty much in the third and bottom bracket. While the majority of their PLOTS can be regarded as Official (except when they violate other Official or Canon), the GAME MECHANICS cannot, as they are designed to make the game easier and more exciting for players.

Finally, there is the third and lowest bar in Canon status. Apocrypha is generally regarded as to having never happened. There is no internal heirarchy, as it serves as the continuity trashcan.

III. APOCRYPHA (aka UNOFFICAL):

Virtually all Marvel and daily newspaper comics.
The "young reader novels" written by Paul and Hollace Davids.
Toys and games.
The Infinities stories (unofficial stories that feature impossible plots (eg, Darth Vader vs Darth Maul) or "what if?" situations).
Most childrens books.

Just remember that this is all my opinion/best guess of what is commonly regarded.

[Alyeska]

Well traditionally It got rated this way at SB.

Movies
Radio Dramas
Novelized movies

Novels
Tech Manuals
Comics
Games

But then at SB HDS stated that anything tied directly into a movie got a higher status rating over any normal EU stuff. I suppose this was his way to get the ICS bumped above the novels.

That's not the way it's officially organised. What follows is what I've interpreted as how most organise SW Canon status.

I. CANON:

1. Films
1.A. SE Films
1.B. OV Films
2. Film script
3. Film novelisations
4. Radio Dramas

II. OFFICIAL (aka EXPANDED UNIVERSE [EU], SEMI-CANON, QUASI-CANON):

The heirarchy of Offical isn't really as tight as that of Canon, but it's generally regarded as such:

1. Novels, Dark Horse comics, and reference books (EG, ICS, VD, etc...) are in the first bracket. I'm assuming that the Ewok TV movies, SWHS, and Ewoks and Droids animated series also fit here. Some Marvel comics also fit here when they are refernced to in other Official.

2. RPG stats and guides (both WEG and WOTC) are in the second bracket. Game mechanics are not a very sound source for stats or calculations. I believe the old Collectable Card Game and current Trading Card Game are also here.

3. Video and computer games are pretty much in the third and bottom bracket. While the majority of their PLOTS can be regarded as Official (except when they violate other Official or Canon), the GAME MECHANICS cannot, as they are designed to make the game easier and more exciting for players.

Finally, there is the third and lowest bar in Canon status. Apocrypha is generally regarded as to having never happened. There is no internal heirarchy, as it serves as the continuity trashcan.

III. APOCRYPHA (aka UNOFFICAL):

Virtually all Marvel and daily newspaper comics.
The "young reader novels" written by Paul and Hollace Davids.
Toys and games.
The Infinities stories (unofficial stories that feature impossible plots (eg, Darth Vader vs Darth Maul) or "what if?" situations).
Most childrens books.

Just remember that this is all my opinion/best guess of what is commonly regarded.

Thats more or less what I viewed it as. You went into a little bit more detail but its ranked more or less the same way. That seems to be the general consensus for most debaters.

However the statement that direct connection to a movie alters canon status does bring up some interesting questions.

[SirNitram]

The 'Attachment to movie raises canonicity' is a direct pull from the Sansweet quote from Ask The Jedi Council. They state the closer to the movies, the more accurate.

[Alyeska]

The 'Attachment to movie raises canonicity' is a direct pull from the Sansweet quote from Ask The Jedi Council. They state the closer to the movies, the more accurate.

And just how much status does this statement have?

[TheDarkling]

Would that be this quote?

"The further one branches away from the movies, the more interpretation
and speculation come into play. LucasBooks works diligently to keep the
continuing Star Wars expanded universe cohesive and uniform, but
stylistically, there is always room for variation."

Well it seems ok but it does open up a can of worms on whats closer to the movies ie everything in NJO is lower than Shadows etc but is the Shadows of the Empire comic above NJO books what about WEG set in the OT compared to NJO books or comics.
What about books like I,Jedi that almost have no link to the movies (Skywalker is the only real link to the films with the Solo's showing up for 5 minutes etc) does that rate higher than an NJO book focusing more on Luke.

That policy does need pinning down abit because "closer to the movies" is very vague.

"The analogy is that every piece of published Star Wars fiction is a
window into the 'real' Star Wars universe. Some windows are a bit foggier
than others. Some are decidedly abstract. But each contains a nugget of
truth to them."

This is what he continues in saying, this to be destroys the EU's use with regard to making judgements on canon, don't get me wrong I agree with keeping the EU (wouldnt be much material to work with otherwise) but it essentially says that the EU is full of errors and the only way to verify whats correct is the canon meaning that the EU becomes useless as a tool for gathering information if we want that information to be correct because we can only be sure of whats correct by checking it by the canon and only accepted whats backed up there and since its already in the canon we dont need the EU anyway.

This differs from the current policy of "Let everything in except that overruled by information above it" which will introduce errors, the method indicated here is "Let everything already verified by canon in".

I say again in the vain hope of avoiding a flaming I'm not saying te EU should be dismissed but thats what the second part of the quote indicates.

PS If I have misquoted or it was a different quote you are refering to please correct me.

[CmdrWilkens]

Would that be this quote?

"TheDarkling"]

"The analogy is that every piece of published Star Wars fiction is a
window into the 'real' Star Wars universe. Some windows are a bit foggier
than others. Some are decidedly abstract. But each contains a nugget of
truth to them."

This is what he continues in saying, this to be destroys the EU's use with regard to making judgements on canon, don't get me wrong I agree with keeping the EU (wouldnt be much material to work with otherwise) but it essentially says that the EU is full of errors and the only way to verify whats correct is the canon meaning that the EU becomes useless as a tool for gathering information if we want that information to be correct because we can only be sure of whats correct by checking it by the canon and only accepted whats backed up there and since its already in the canon we dont need the EU anyway.

This differs from the current policy of "Let everything in except that overruled by information above it" which will introduce errors, the method indicated here is "Let everything already verified by canon in".

I say again in the vain hope of avoiding a flaming I'm not saying te EU should be dismissed but thats what the second part of the quote indicates.

PS If I have misquoted or it was a different quote you are refering to please correct me.

Not to be rude btu you realize this was DS's entire argument. However it is a leap of logic to assume that you must check the EU against canon to ensure accuracy. By stating that we have to check the Eu against canon you are, inessence, claiming that the data is either 100% correct (i.e. represented in canon) or completely worthless (should be discarded). The quote ratehr specifically states that there is always a middle ground where we can accept some. The best example is how this quote relates to the novelisations.

If taken literally the quote states that the novelisations (of the movies) are more speculative ( the quote classes things as The Films vs Everything Else). Under the idea that we throw out everything that doesn't agree with the movies this would mean we have to eliminate everything in the novelisations that aren't in the movies...however this directly flies in the face of the quote which tells us that the novelisations are canon (and are thus a true authoritative source on SW).

Basically if you take the quote to mean that EU must be checked against canon you create a contradiction with quotes on the subject. If you take the quote to mean that the EU material (actually all non-film material) to be less authoritative than the Films (but still truthful to the extent it doesn't disagree with more authoritative sources) then you have no contradiction.

Just to repeat this was 90% of DarkStar's argument and it utilises faulty logic.

[CmdrWilkens]

<snip>

III. APOCRYPHA (aka UNOFFICAL):

Virtually all Marvel and daily newspaper comics.

Just a minor nitpick but Steve Sansweet on SW.com says the exact opposite of this, the Marvel comic series are part of the SW continuity.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Hmm, I thought Marval comics were Apocryphal unless they were referenced to in Official materials.

I have trouble understanding why it's so hard for some of you to get what "closer to Canon" means. Maybe you guys have been watching too much Star Trek.

[Darth Wong]

What about books like I,Jedi that almost have no link to the movies (Skywalker is the only real link to the films with the Solo's showing up for 5 minutes etc) does that rate higher than an NJO book focusing more on Luke.

Think of it as historical records. Records or accounts which are corroborated by physical evidence can be thought of as official material which is consistent with canon and deals with events substantiated by canon. Records or accounts which are not corroborated by physical evidence (ie- huge amounts of history) are less reliable and must be interpreted more carefully, but you still don't ignore them outright unless you can produce some reason to do so.

[Darth Wong]

Just as a voice of reason here, let me add that Aleyeska is right in the sense that he's stating his opinion about Saxton and the ICS. He doesn't agree with the numbers and he thinks their bullshit, BUT he won't pull a Darkstar and say that the ICS does not exist or that its not canon.

No, but he will slander Curtis Saxton as a dishonest Warsie spouting bullshit and pulling numbers out of his ass with impunity, and them innocently say "who, me?" if someone tries to call him on it. I hold Mr. Saxton in high regard and I'm sick of seeing people blast his work as "bullshit", even if they grudgingly accept that it's "official bullshit", to use Alyeska's term.

[CmdrWilkens]

Just as a voice of reason here, let me add that Aleyeska is right in the sense that he's stating his opinion about Saxton and the ICS. He doesn't agree with the numbers and he thinks their bullshit, BUT he won't pull a Darkstar and say that the ICS does not exist or that its not canon.

No, but he will slander Curtis Saxton as a dishonest Warsie spouting bullshit and pulling numbers out of his ass with impunity, and them innocently say "who, me?" if someone tries to call him on it. I hold Mr. Saxton in high regard and I'm sick of seeing people blast his work as "bullshit", even if they grudgingly accept that it's "official bullshit", to use Alyeska's term.

Not that I support Aleyska, I don't, but you can just feel the love in this room

[Spanky The Dolphin]

I think it's about time he got something like that.