What if Dooku killed Palpatine at the beginning of RotS?

Sidewinder · Post by **Sidewinder** » 2006-01-12 03:06pm

Scenario: Shortly before the Battle of Coruscant, Dooku finds a Sith holocron left behind by Darth Plagueis. He learns of Anakin's creation and guesses-- correctly-- that Palpatine plans to replace him with Anakin.

The battle begins. Palpatine allows Grievous to kidnap him and bring him aboard the Invisible Hand. Dooku allows Anakin and Obi-Wan to board the Invisible Hand and enter the observation deck. Then he ignites his lightsaber and pierces Palpatine's heart.

Darth Sidious wrote:Damn! I didn't foresee this!

Anakin lunges at Dooku, but is knocked back by Force lightning, giving Dooku time to behead Palpatine. Dooku claims the Republic is doomed without Palpatine's leadership, and offers Anakin a place in the CIS and Sith training.

Anakin gives into the Dark Side and attacks Dooku, determined to avenge Palpatine. What happens?

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2006-01-12 03:11pm

Without Palpatine there to guide and teach him, and without the build up over the fight (Wearing Dooku down over time), Anakin loses and is killed, the novel showed that without Palpatine and Dooku holding back at first, A woulkd have been killed.
Also, plaguis did not create Anakin

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2006-01-12 03:11pm

Uum Dooku dies? And without Palpy around Anakin is very likely to stay lightside after that.

The Senate becomes all cool and democratic again without Palpy pulling the strings. Peace and prosperity reigns, that sort of thing.

Edit: Death: the novel doesn't say that at all. Dooku thinks He's easily dominating the fight at first but only because Obi and Anni are using different styles than usual to lure him into a false sense of security. When they switch back, they're overpowering him even before he takes out Kenobi.

Of course an arguemnt could be made the novelisations dicpiction is sufficiently diferent to the fils to be overridden.

Sidewider: Why does Dooku need to both stab Palpatine and behead him?

Post by **NecronLord** » 2006-01-12 03:16pm

Anakin's supposed artificial creation by Darth Plagueis is pure fanon.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2006-01-12 03:55pm

Well for a start the Shroud Of The Darkside drops enabling Anakin and Obi-wan to kill Dooku. The Jedi council will put 2 and 2 togeather and realise that the Sith they sought was Palpatine, but no matter he'd dead. Bail Organa or one of his proto-Rebel Group will get elected Chancellor, maybe even Padame. The Republic will then try and sort out the Seppies via diplomacy however Grevious won't accept this. In a large and drawn out batte the TF ships will turn on Grevious and kill him and all will be as it was.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2006-01-12 06:56pm

Lord Pounder wrote:Well for a start the Shroud Of The Darkside drops enabling Anakin and Obi-wan to kill Dooku. The Jedi council will put 2 and 2 togeather and realise that the Sith they sought was Palpatine, but no matter he'd dead. Bail Organa or one of his proto-Rebel Group will get elected Chancellor, maybe even Padame. The Republic will then try and sort out the Seppies via diplomacy however Grevious won't accept this. In a large and drawn out batte the TF ships will turn on Grevious and kill him and all will be as it was.

IF Dooku does not die, rather lives and escapes the Jedi after he kills Palpatine, the CIS will probably continue the war. The war was winding down because Sidious wanted it too, nothing more (as the outerrimm sieges display).

Dooku will claim the top spot as the Sith Lord and continue the fight to create a CIS. If successful, he'll reign as Sith Lord in a new Sith Empire, probably continuing to fight the Republic.

Sidewinder · Post by **Sidewinder** » 2006-01-12 07:10pm

Crazedwraith wrote:Sidewider: Why does Dooku need to both stab Palpatine and behead him?

Dooku is NOT taking any chances. (Would you if your enemy was the most powerful Sith Lord in history?) After all, the EU shows Sith Lords surviving poison, dismemberment, disembowelment (the Sith Lord who was cut in half in 'Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight'), etc.

Anarchist Bunny · Post by **Anarchist Bunny** » 2006-01-13 12:54am

Knife wrote:
Lord Pounder wrote:Well for a start the Shroud Of The Darkside drops enabling Anakin and Obi-wan to kill Dooku. The Jedi council will put 2 and 2 togeather and realise that the Sith they sought was Palpatine, but no matter he'd dead. Bail Organa or one of his proto-Rebel Group will get elected Chancellor, maybe even Padame. The Republic will then try and sort out the Seppies via diplomacy however Grevious won't accept this. In a large and drawn out batte the TF ships will turn on Grevious and kill him and all will be as it was.
IF Dooku does not die, rather lives and escapes the Jedi after he kills Palpatine, the CIS will probably continue the war. The war was winding down because Sidious wanted it too, nothing more (as the outerrimm sieges display).

Dooku will claim the top spot as the Sith Lord and continue the fight to create a CIS. If successful, he'll reign as Sith Lord in a new Sith Empire, probably continuing to fight the Republic.

I doubt Dooku would side with the CIS if that happened, he's a racist and the CIS(purposefully) is all alien as far was we see in the movies. I think he goes the route of "I went to the Dark Side so that I could end it, waited til Sidious had my full trust, so I could betray him and end him". Possibly followed by a " *stab* urk *Anakin fulfills his prophecy early*"

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2006-01-13 01:00am

Sidewinder wrote:
Crazedwraith wrote:Sidewider: Why does Dooku need to both stab Palpatine and behead him?
Dooku is NOT taking any chances. (Would you if your enemy was the most powerful Sith Lord in history?) After all, the EU shows Sith Lords surviving poison, dismemberment, disembowelment (the Sith Lord who was cut in half in 'Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight'), etc.

Jerec's apprenticies are Dark Jedi, but not Sith (Jerec only wants to be a Sith but he isn't a Sith Lord), also apart of Darth Sion I don't know any Sith or Dark Jedi who had survived mortal wounds for any extended period (Anakin was already at the end of how long he could substain himself when Palpatine arrived at Mustafar).

000 · Post by **000** » 2006-01-13 03:55pm

NecronLord wrote:Anakin's supposed artificial creation by Darth Plagueis is pure fanon.

The New Essential Chronology and Vader: The Ultimate Guide disagree.

Straha · Post by **Straha** » 2006-01-13 04:32pm

000 wrote:
NecronLord wrote:Anakin's supposed artificial creation by Darth Plagueis is pure fanon.
The New Essential Chronology and Vader: The Ultimate Guide disagree.

The newest book out on Vader disagrees with your sources, and backs up the fanon classification I believe.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2006-01-13 06:19pm

Anarchist Bunny wrote:
I doubt Dooku would side with the CIS if that happened, he's a racist and the CIS(purposefully) is all alien as far was we see in the movies. I think he goes the route of "I went to the Dark Side so that I could end it, waited til Sidious had my full trust, so I could betray him and end him". Possibly followed by a " *stab* urk *Anakin fulfills his prophecy early*"

Dooku loves power more than he hates others. He'll lord over what ever little empire he can make. If the Republic did start to crush the CIS without Palpy telling Dooku to let the Republic win, yeah, he might abandon them.

Sidewinder · Post by **Sidewinder** » 2006-01-13 10:12pm

Lord Revan wrote:Jerec's apprenticies are Dark Jedi, but not Sith (Jerec only wants to be a Sith but he isn't a Sith Lord), also apart of Darth Sion I don't know any Sith or Dark Jedi who had survived mortal wounds for any extended period (Anakin was already at the end of how long he could substain himself when Palpatine arrived at Mustafar).

I apologize for mistaking Jerec's Dark Jedi for Sith Lords, but the point remains: you do NOT take chances when fighting Force users.

In my opinion, the Dark Side will give Anakin the power to kill Dooku, but after the loss of the father figure that Palpatine was to him, Anakin will begin behaving erratically.

I suspect Palpatine's will named Anakin as his sole heir and benefactor, not to tempt Anakin with material wealth, but to make the Council suspicious of Anakin's loyalty to the Jedi and their Oath. At this point, whether Anakin will save the Jedi Order or destroy will depend on Obi-Wan and the Council's decision. If Obi-Wan defends Anakin's character before the Council, the Dark Side will lose its hold over Anakin-- he'll leave the Jedi Order, openly marry Padme, and get a job in the Naboo Defense Force.

If the Council judges the fraternal relationship between Obi-Wan and Anakin as inappropriate, and foolishly tries to separate them, Anakin will lose another role model, and the Dark Side's hold will strengthen. Anakin will leave the Jedi Order with anger in his heart. Palpatine's old cronies might convince Anakin to run for public office, thinking they can regain the wealth and influence they had under the late Supreme Chancellor. Anakin and the Jedi Council will remain suspicious of each other, and the events of 'Revenge of the Sith'-- Anakin's fall to the Dark Side, the mass murder of the Jedi, and the razing of their temple-- will only be delayed, not prevented.

Post by **Vympel** » 2006-01-13 10:23pm

DEATH wrote:Without Palpatine there to guide and teach him, and without the build up over the fight (Wearing Dooku down over time), Anakin loses and is killed, the novel showed that without Palpatine and Dooku holding back at first, A woulkd have been killed.
Also, plaguis did not create Anakin

The novel shows no such thing. Obi-Wan and Anakin were holding back- lulling Dooku into a false sense of security. Dooku was also not holding back- it was his objective to kill Obi-Wan and test Anakin- if he was good enough to best Anakin, then Anakin was worth nothing to Palpatine anyway.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2006-01-13 11:40pm

NecronLord wrote:Anakin's supposed artificial creation by Darth Plagueis is pure fanon.

Odd that the New Essential Chronology states it as fact then.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2006-01-13 11:42pm

Straha wrote:
000 wrote:
NecronLord wrote:Anakin's supposed artificial creation by Darth Plagueis is pure fanon.
The New Essential Chronology and Vader: The Ultimate Guide disagree.
The newest book out on Vader disagrees with your sources,

One line in there, that when you look at it from the Sith POV of prophecy Palpatine outlines in the ROTS novel becomes a little more hazy.

and backs up the fanon classification I believe.

If you think official published sources making explicet statements are fanon then you need to read Poe's rebuttal to Bobby.

Straha · Post by **Straha** » 2006-01-14 12:08am

Ender wrote:
and backs up the fanon classification I believe.
If you think official published sources making explicet statements are fanon then you need to read Poe's rebuttal to Bobby.

You misunderstand me, I meant that I thought (I admitedly don't know, I haven't read the book yet) that it made clear that Anakin was not concieved thanks to Palageius, and thus reduced that story to the likes of Fan-Fiction. If I misunderstood the definition of fanon I apologize, I hope this clears up what I was trying to say.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2006-01-14 12:12am

Straha wrote:
Ender wrote:
and backs up the fanon classification I believe.
If you think official published sources making explicet statements are fanon then you need to read Poe's rebuttal to Bobby.
You misunderstand me, I meant that I thought (I admitedly don't know, I haven't read the book yet) that it made clear that Anakin was not concieved thanks to Palageius, and thus reduced that story to the likes of Fan-Fiction. If I misunderstood the definition of fanon I apologize, I hope this clears up what I was trying to say.

No, you understand the definition of fanon right, the problem is that official sources are by grace of the fact they are official, not fanon.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2006-01-14 12:17am

Crazedwraith wrote:Edit: Death: the novel doesn't say that at all. Dooku thinks He's easily dominating the fight at first but only because Obi and Anni are using different styles than usual to lure him into a false sense of security. When they switch back, they're overpowering him even before he takes out Kenobi.

Of course an arguemnt could be made the novelisations dicpiction is sufficiently diferent to the fils to be overridden.

The novel talks about him playing with them and enjoying it before he decides he has to end it and goads Kenobi into showing he'd been played.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2006-01-14 01:18am

Ender wrote:
Crazedwraith wrote:Edit: Death: the novel doesn't say that at all. Dooku thinks He's easily dominating the fight at first but only because Obi and Anni are using different styles than usual to lure him into a false sense of security. When they switch back, they're overpowering him even before he takes out Kenobi.

Of course an arguemnt could be made the novelisations dicpiction is sufficiently diferent to the fils to be overridden.
The novel talks about him playing with them and enjoying it before he decides he has to end it and goads Kenobi into showing he'd been played.

where he is then surprised that he can't indeed end it. Obi and to a lesser degree, Anakin, can't be 'taken'.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2006-01-14 03:55pm

000 wrote:
NecronLord wrote:Anakin's supposed artificial creation by Darth Plagueis is pure fanon.
The New Essential Chronology and Vader: The Ultimate Guide disagree.

Dark Lord affirmatively and explicitly says that Anakin was created by the Force itself.

Archon · Post by **Archon** » 2006-01-14 05:03pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
000 wrote:
NecronLord wrote:Anakin's supposed artificial creation by Darth Plagueis is pure fanon.
The New Essential Chronology and Vader: The Ultimate Guide disagree.
Dark Lord affirmatively and explicitly says that Anakin was created by the Force itself.

What page is it on (if you know offhand)?

I was looking for that quote last night and I couldn't find it.

EDIT: Thanks in advance.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2006-01-14 05:43pm

Ender wrote:
NecronLord wrote:Anakin's supposed artificial creation by Darth Plagueis is pure fanon.
Odd that the New Essential Chronology states it as fact then.

I was unaware of, and am now appalled by, this. An erreta should be issued removing it if (and this is the only way I can forsee them getting permission to write it) they were working off an early film script when they published it.

Darth Quorthon · Post by **Darth Quorthon** » 2006-01-14 07:05pm

Archon wrote:What page is it on (if you know offhand)?

I was looking for that quote last night and I couldn't find it.

Page 133, it's from Sidious' POV:

He recalled thinking: What if Anakin should die?
How many years would he have had to search for an apprentice even half as powerful in the Force, let alone one created by the Force itself to restore balance, by allowing the dark side to percolate fully to the surface after a millennium of being stifled?
None would be found.