Ion cannons vs Trek ships

[Jaepheth]

Here's the question: Would Star Wars' ion cannons be affective against Star Trek ships for the purpose of disabling?

I raise the question because Trek ships transmit power via plasma conduits and if data lines are optical lines, then the disruptive ions wouldn't have conductive paths to critical computer systems.

Or am I missing something?

[Imperial Overlord]

Trek ships are very vulnerable to ion storms, which are in all probability far less powerful than Star Wars ion cannons. Plasma carries a charge as well, which means that plasma conduits probably won't respond well to an ion blast. It is quite possible that ion cannons are poor choices to disable Trek ships because they would tend to destroy them.

This has been addressed previously.

[Darth Yoshi]

More importantly, ion cannons do inflict physical damage. Undoubtedly it's less severe than a dedicated turbolaser, but the ion cannon at Hoth did noticeable damage to the Avenger. It's quite possible that the Trek ship wouldn't survive long enough for the plasma conduits to do secondary damage.

[Quadlok]

The relatively small ion cannons aboard the Invisible Hand are given a six megaton yield in the ROTSICS. It wouldn't take to many of those to do lethal damage to a Trek ship.

[Connor MacLeod]

The IH ion vcannons are 4.8 megatons in yield. The Acclamator's PD laser cannon are 6 MT max in yield.

[li' kheprhedorh]

Considering a borg cube was disabled by an electrical storm in ST. VOY, any electric-based weapons including ion cannons would completely own anything else from star trek, especially Federation ships.

[Surlethe]

Considering a borg cube was disabled by an electrical storm in ST. VOY, any electric-based weapons including ion cannons would completely own anything else from star trek, especially Federation ships.

That doesn't follow; Borg technology is, by its assimilatory nature, markedly different from Federation tech, so a generalization is unwarranted.

[li' kheprhedorh]

Ok, yes, the generalization is out of line.

But ion cannons vs. trek ships? Borg cubes are like light switches for SW ships. You can just turn them off with a few ion cannon blasts, and they probably won't think to dodge them, because they don't know what they are.

[Surlethe]

I don't think Trek ships could dodge an ion cannon blast, given both the range at which Trek combat occurs and the fact the captain of the destroyer in ESB would most definitely have dodged the ion cannon blast if he could've.

[li' kheprhedorh]

Star destroyers aren't really that maneuverable, as we saw in SW ESB, how slowly star destroyers escape collision (why they were heading straight for each other in the first place is beyond me). In ST VOY Scorpion, we see a borg cube execute rapid acceleration and deceleration with the way it returned to it's fleet after scanning Voyager. We also see it's ability to spin in circles at warp drive. The borg seem to have the maneuverability dodge the weapon, but they always seem to lack the incentive to avoid collisions and weapons hits. For example, from what I just said, the cubes in VOY endgame could have dodged the transphasic torpedoes fired by voyager, but they didn't. The borg could dodge the ion cannon, but they won't.

So overall, my point is that ion cannons are not good for borg cubes.

[SirNitram]

Uh... Borg Cubes never, ever, dodge. They never undergo the slightest combat maneuver. They Fly. Slowly. Forward. Just as drones Walk. Slowly. Forward.

[li' kheprhedorh]

That's just what I said. They could, but they don't. I even provided proof that they could, but I reitterate, that they don't dodge. If you're going to argue, don't argue for the same point of the person you're arguing with.

[Surlethe]

Star destroyers aren't really that maneuverable, as we saw in SW ESB, how slowly star destroyers escape collision (why they were heading straight for each other in the first place is beyond me). In ST VOY Scorpion, we see a borg cube execute rapid acceleration and deceleration with the way it returned to it's fleet after scanning Voyager. We also see it's ability to spin in circles at warp drive. The borg seem to have the maneuverability dodge the weapon, but they always seem to lack the incentive to avoid collisions and weapons hits.

Numbers, please.

For example, from what I just said, the cubes in VOY endgame could have dodged the transphasic torpedoes fired by voyager, but they didn't. The borg could dodge the ion cannon, but they won't.

Your premises are still flawed; the ion cannon shot would be coming from much closer, and it still moves at a good clip. A Star Destroyer -- which, contrary to your claim, is capable of at least 30 km/s/s accelerations -- was incapable of dodging an ion cannon blast, either because it could not detect the shot, or because it could not accelerate quickly enough. In either case, the borg are screwed.

So overall, my point is that ion cannons are not good for borg cubes.

Nobody contests that; the problem is with your logic.

[li' kheprhedorh]

Sorry, I assumed that speculation was allowed. I have no numbers. I just saw that cube zip from one place to another and thought "wow it can do that?" then recently, I thought "if it can move that fast it could dodge that ion cannon on Hoth if it was in the ISD's position." So, speculatively, from what I see on screen, yes the cube could dodge, but won't. Quantitatively, I have no idea whether it could

With the dodge-the-ion-cannon bit, I was thinking of a planet-based cannon with the cube in the ISD's position. I should have specified. From my speculation, in a one on one between an ISD and a cube, the cube can't dodge, but quantitatively, we don't know... maybe it can.

[Surlethe]

Sorry, I assumed that speculation was allowed. I have no numbers. I just saw that cube zip from one place to another and thought "wow it can do that?" then recently, I thought "if it can move that fast it could dodge that ion cannon on Hoth if it was in the ISD's position." So, speculatively, from what I see on screen, yes the cube could dodge, but won't. Quantitatively, I have no idea whether it could

Unfortunately, we can't compare based solely on looks; numbers are the only objective method of comparing apples and oranges. I await your evidence.

With the dodge-the-ion-cannon bit, I was thinking of a planet-based cannon with the cube in the ISD's position. I should have specified. From my speculation, in a one on one between an ISD and a cube, the cube can't dodge, but quantitatively, we don't know... maybe it can.

We don't know about the cube's accelerative capacity ... until you provide evidence. That will settle the question either affirmatively or negatively. Logically, it won't be able to, because, given a 30 km/s/s acceleration, and several seconds of warning, the ISD should've been well out of the way of the ion cannon; thus, it stands to reason the ISD was unable to detect the ion cannon firing. If an ISD can't, what makes you think a cube can?

[Darth Servo]

Cubes trying to dodge weapons fire? Thats a new one thats never been seen on the show.

[Darth Servo]

Damn, I missed where my point had already beeb made. A mod may feel free to delete my above post.

However, the ability to spin in outerspace is nothing to get excited about. Thats how normal spece flight works.

[li' kheprhedorh]

Logically, it won't be able to, because, given a 30 km/s/s acceleration, and several seconds of warning, the ISD should've been well out of the way of the ion cannon; thus, it stands to reason the ISD was unable to detect the ion cannon firing. If an ISD can't, what makes you think a cube can?

30 km/s/s? personally I don't believe it, but if that's what your source tells you, I guess I'll have to buy it. It's just that the ship in one second would be travelling at something around 20 times its own length in one second. Just doesn't seem realistic. From speculation, I would have said the cube had only around half that acceleration. As for evidence of borg cube acceleration, I can't find any, so therefore I lose that arguement. I just find the numbers associated with both star trek and star wars to be somewhat exaggerated. I have no idea of whether a borg cube would detect the ion cannon firing from orbit or not. It would stand to reason that a borg cube can drones up and down from orbit (fairly large-range sensors are needed to detect the drones), it would at least be able to detect an ion cannon firing.

[li' kheprhedorh]

oops, typo

It would stand to reason that if a borg cube can beam drones up and down from orbit...

[Surlethe]

Logically, it won't be able to, because, given a 30 km/s/s acceleration, and several seconds of warning, the ISD should've been well out of the way of the ion cannon; thus, it stands to reason the ISD was unable to detect the ion cannon firing. If an ISD can't, what makes you think a cube can?

30 km/s/s? personally I don't believe it, but if that's what your source tells you, I guess I'll have to buy it. It's just that the ship in one second would be travelling at something around 20 times its own length in one second. Just doesn't seem realistic.

Wait ... you were expecting science fiction to be realistic? The source says:

The Executor decelerated at a rate of roughly 30 km/s² in ROTJ along with the rest of the fleet ...

.

From speculation, I would have said the cube had only around half that acceleration. As for evidence of borg cube acceleration, I can't find any, so therefore I lose that arguement.

Concession accepted.

I just find the numbers associated with both star trek and star wars to be somewhat exaggerated.

Well, of course. The Empire can disperse the mass of an entire planet at a non-negligible fraction of c; that, in itself, makes the numbers entirely unrealistic. However, in a versus debate, you accept the truth of the numbers and reason from them; whining that the numbers are exaggerated doesn't hold any water.

I have no idea of whether a borg cube would detect the ion cannon firing from orbit or not. It would stand to reason that a borg cube can beam drones up and down from orbit (fairly large-range sensors are needed to detect the drones), it would at least be able to detect an ion cannon firing.

Drones are part of the collective; why shouldn't the borg know where they are anyway?

[PayBack]

Nobody contests that

Sorry I've seen a lot of the main site and read a lot of the forums, but I must have missed the discussion on why Ion Cannons are no good against the Borg? Considering even the crew are somehwhat mechanical I would have thought Ion Cannons would have owned Borg Cubes once the shields were brought down with HTL's (assuming you wanted to capture one of course).

[Surlethe]

Nobody contests that

Sorry I've seen a lot of the main site and read a lot of the forums, but I must have missed the discussion on why Ion Cannons are no good against the Borg?

I read him as saying, "So overall, my point is that ion cannons are not good for borg cubes", like "Overall, eating cyanide is not good for you."

Considering even the crew are somehwhat mechanical I would have thought Ion Cannons would have owned Borg Cubes once the shields were brought down with HTL's (assuming you wanted to capture one of course).

You wouldn't want to use HTLs to bring down borg cubes; even one shot would bring the shields down and then some. If I were the captain of a Star Destroyer, I would just use an ion cannon; as established earlier in the thread, there is enough energy in an ion blast to bring down a Trek ship's shields.

[PayBack]

Ah my bad, I read it as being not good for [using against] Cubes.

Though would 4.8 MT get through borg shields?

[Hitch Hiker]

Damn, I missed where my point had already beeb made. A mod may feel free to delete my above post.

However, the ability to spin in outerspace is nothing to get excited about. Thats how normal spece flight works.

an example of something spinning through space...watch the TARDIS in episode 13...spins straight into Dalek missiles

[Surlethe]

Ah my bad, I read it as being not good for [using against] Cubes.

Though would 4.8 MT get through borg shields?

After a few shots, I'd think so; I'm not sure what the numbers on Borg shields are, but, on general principles, Star Trek <<< Star Wars in pretty much every area.