Ion cannons vs Trek ships

[Eleas]

After a few shots, I'd think so; I'm not sure what the numbers on Borg shields are, but, on general principles, Star Trek <<< Star Wars in pretty much every area.

Unadapted, I'd feel pretty comfortable in stating that such Ion Cannons would hurt the Borg Cube, possibly disrupting further shield activation to a great degree. However, going by the calculations we find in "Relics" (which seem to give a generous upper limit of thirty megatons of energy) we can infer that Borg cubes, by virtue of their superior combat ability, should exhibit many times that level of resistance.

Assuming a Cube's shielding to be on the order of a hundred times that of a Galaxy class cruiser (which, in light of First Contact, sounds around the right ballpark), our shielding estimate pans out at around 1E19 J -- which would mean that you'd need in the area of five to six hundred shots of the 4.8 MT cannon to defeat Borg shields. That is assuming Borg shields work like Federation shields regarding attrition.

This is, of course, ignoring the possibility that Imperial ion cannon share characteristics common to other plasmas, such as the ones seen in Descent, part 2. If that is the case, then we can expect the shields to buckle pretty much at the first shot.

[Surlethe]

After a few shots, I'd think so; I'm not sure what the numbers on Borg shields are, but, on general principles, Star Trek <<< Star Wars in pretty much every area.

Unadapted, I'd feel pretty comfortable in stating that such Ion Cannons would hurt the Borg Cube, possibly disrupting further shield activation to a great degree. However, going by the calculations we find in "Relics" (which seem to give a generous upper limit of thirty megatons of energy) we can infer that Borg cubes, by virtue of their superior combat ability, should exhibit many times that level of resistance.

Assuming a Cube's shielding to be on the order of a hundred times that of a Galaxy class cruiser (which, in light of First Contact, sounds around the right ballpark), our shielding estimate pans out at around 1E19 J -- which would mean that you'd need in the area of five to six hundred shots of the 4.8 MT cannon to defeat Borg shields. That is assuming Borg shields work like Federation shields regarding attrition.

This is, of course, ignoring the possibility that Imperial ion cannon share characteristics common to other plasmas, such as the ones seen in Descent, part 2. If that is the case, then we can expect the shields to buckle pretty much at the first shot.

This is fair enough; ion cannons, though, affect through shields (unless we want to assume the ISD's shields in ESB were down). If the Borg are similar enough to the Federation to use phased shields, we can expect damage to accrue before the shields are down, and possibly that the EM effects will take the shields out before they're battered down.

[Eleas]

This is fair enough; ion cannons, though, affect through shields (unless we want to assume the ISD's shields in ESB were down). If the Borg are similar enough to the Federation to use phased shields, we can expect damage to accrue before the shields are down, and possibly that the EM effects will take the shields out before they're battered down.

I've seen no credible evidence of the first assertion -- the Ion cannon could very well be powerful enough to batter down the ISD's shields in the opening volley. It is furthermore in no way certain that the ISD had their shields angled to intercept the sudden attack; it does not appear to have been a concern, as none of the pictures the Probe Droid transmitted showed such a structure.

Nor do I find the slightest shred of validity in the notion of this "shield-piercing" quality being somehow universal. Trek shields generally work on an ablating principle, whereas Wars shields are a continuous barrier. To automatically assume that Ion cannons have the magical ability to pass through all forms of energy fields, while simultaneously affecting matter, is unwarranted.

[Surlethe]

This is fair enough; ion cannons, though, affect through shields (unless we want to assume the ISD's shields in ESB were down). If the Borg are similar enough to the Federation to use phased shields, we can expect damage to accrue before the shields are down, and possibly that the EM effects will take the shields out before they're battered down.

I've seen no credible evidence of the first assertion -- the Ion cannon could very well be powerful enough to batter down the ISD's shields in the opening volley. It is furthermore in no way certain that the ISD had their shields angled to intercept the sudden attack; it does not appear to have been a concern, as none of the pictures the Probe Droid transmitted showed such a structure.

Point conceded.

Nor do I find the slightest shred of validity in the notion of this "shield-piercing" quality being somehow universal. Trek shields generally work on an ablating principle, whereas Wars shields are a continuous barrier. To automatically assume that Ion cannons have the magical ability to pass through all forms of energy fields, while simultaneously affecting matter, is unwarranted.

I hardly made this assertion; from here:

So why do Star Trek shields oscillate at a fixed frequency? Oscillation is a weakness, not a strength; if a field oscillates, then this means that its amplitude changes over time, which is not a good thing for a defensive system. In an AC-powered electromagnet, the magnetic field fluctuates between +B and -B, so there are finite moments when its field strength is zero!. In theory, a constant bombardment of energy would achieve some penetration of an oscillating shield regardless of whether it's at full strength or not. This would explain why Star Trek ships start taking damage before their shields fail, and it would also help explain the usefulness of "multi-phasic shields" (as well as the fact that they aren't used in battle1). It might be reflected when the shield is at its peaks, but it will get through during the valleys.

I am merely stating the obvious: if Borg shields oscillate, then there are moments when the phase is very low or zero, and thus moments when an ion cannon blast could partially penetrate the shield. At no point did I claim ion cannons have the ability to pass through all forms of energy fields.

[Eleas]

I hardly made this assertion; from here:

<snip>

I am merely stating the obvious: if Borg shields oscillate, then there are moments when the phase is very low or zero, and thus moments when an ion cannon blast could partially penetrate the shield. At no point did I claim ion cannons have the ability to pass through all forms of energy fields.

That's a valid point. I took your statement about affecting through Star Wars shields as an attempt to link Trek and Wars shields together. I'd recommend qualifying such statements in the future, though. To claim that "ion cannons [..] affect through shields" while discussing both sorts of shields would tend to lead the reader to the conclusion that, indeed, you're claiming ion cannons penetrate shields.

As for the oscillation business, the shield frequency probably oscillates quite rapidly. One could posit a shield that allowed any and all attacks to partially penetrate, but to an infinitesemal degree, which is then absorbed by armor. This is assuming a shield that oscillates quickly enough that a full cycle would be completed in the time it took for the bolt to penetrate the shield. To pass through such a hypothetical shield unimpeded, the bolt itself would have to be made up of particles 180 degrees out of phase with the shield's frequency at any given time.

This is, however, starting to sound a bit unreasonable.

[Surlethe]

I hardly made this assertion; from here:

<snip>

I am merely stating the obvious: if Borg shields oscillate, then there are moments when the phase is very low or zero, and thus moments when an ion cannon blast could partially penetrate the shield. At no point did I claim ion cannons have the ability to pass through all forms of energy fields.

That's a valid point. I took your statement about affecting through Star Wars shields as an attempt to link Trek and Wars shields together. I'd recommend qualifying such statements in the future, though. To claim that "ion cannons [..] affect through shields" while discussing both sorts of shields would tend to lead the reader to the conclusion that, indeed, you're claiming ion cannons penetrate shields.

Yes; I wasn't clear about that. Sorry.

As for the oscillation business, the shield frequency probably oscillates quite rapidly. One could posit a shield that allowed any and all attacks to partially penetrate, but to an infinitesemal degree, which is then absorbed by armor. This is assuming a shield that oscillates quickly enough that a full cycle would be completed in the time it took for the bolt to penetrate the shield. To pass through such a hypothetical shield unimpeded, the bolt itself would have to be made up of particles 180 degrees out of phase with the shield's frequency at any given time.

To my thinking, some portions of the bolt would pass through unimpeded, and other parts would be completely dissipated by the shield, leaving a bolt which varied in intensity to strike the hull armor.

This is, however, starting to sound a bit unreasonable.

The shield part doesn't sound unreasonable to me; the bolt ... maybe ...

[Eleas]

Yes; I wasn't clear about that. Sorry.

No worries.

To my thinking, some portions of the bolt would pass through unimpeded, and other parts would be completely dissipated by the shield, leaving a bolt which varied in intensity to strike the hull armor.

That's essentially what I was saying as well. Only that, if the oscillations were rapid enough, the energy that would penetrate wouldn't be as a coherent bolt but rather parts of the bolt.

The shield part doesn't sound unreasonable to me; the bolt ... maybe ...

Well, maybe... It would make it harder for attackers to luck out and strike clean through the shield, but obviously, it would also mean a greater degree of bleedthrough.

[Eleas]

That's essentially what I was saying as well. Only that, if the oscillations were rapid enough, the energy that would penetrate wouldn't be as a coherent bolt but rather parts of the bolt.

...which was exactly what you were saying, too. Damn, I really need to sleep.

[Surlethe]

If my trig is correct ...

if a cube's shields oscillate at 600 MHz, with a maximum of 1e19 J, then an ion cannon shot of 1.7e16 joules will be able to penetrate the oscillating shields for a total time of 0.068 s, which is 6.8% of the time exposed. This implies that the maximum amount of energy able to penetrate the 600 MHz shield will be 1.2e15 J.

[Ender]

where do you get 600 MHz from?

[Surlethe]

where do you get 600 MHz from?

My ass. I have no idea on which frequency Trek shields oscillate, so I guessed.

[Surlethe]

where do you get 600 MHz from?

My ass. I have no idea on which frequency Trek shields oscillate, so I guessed.

A quick google shows shields apparently oscillate at 247.5 MHz, so I overestimated by a factor of three.

[Mith]

The Borg do not use shields as other races do in ST. They instead have a hige SIF that beefs up the armor (which is already pretty tough) to high levels. Should after a few shots the Borg ship adapts to the weapon as is. If you remodulate the weapon to a diffrent frequncy than the Borg ship has to take a few more shots to adapt. Borg ships are also able to repair large amounts of damage, as seen in Star Trek TNG in their first encounter with the Borg.

[Ghost Rider]

Thread necro..retard. Stop it.