How Powerful is an ISD?

NRS Guardian · Post by **NRS Guardian** » 2006-01-16 08:46pm

Lazarus wrote:According to the Incredible Cross Sections the heavy weapon emplacements on each side of an ISD 1's superstructure (at least on the Devastator, they may have been upgraded later) consist of four turrets per side. Three on each side are heavy turbolasers, the other is a heavy ion cannon. However, each heavy turbolaser turret has 2 barrels, meaning it has 12 heavy TL's. Concerning the ion cannons, they appear to have 3 barrels, however 1 is shorter than the others, so perhaps this is some form of rangefinder. Either way I'm inclined to belive this means there are four heavy ion cannons in these 2 turrets. Also shown are 3 'Axial defense turrets' each with 2 barrels and 2 'Lateral quad laser batteries' (presuming symmetry) each with four barrels. However, no other weapons are shown.
Obviously if this were it for weapons the ship would be ridiculously under armed. Hence, I suggest that the smaller turbolaser turrets and ion cannons (of which 60 of each are included on an ISD II according to the Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology) cannot be seen on this diagram due to their small size. So why can these quad lasers and axial defense batteries be seen? I would assume logically it is because they are more powerful weapons than the smaller turrets, perhaps further heavy turbolasers, however without evidence describing them as either light, medium or heavy weapons this remains a theory.

The breakdown I've seen, and which I agree with is: 12 VHTLs, 4 HICs, 8 HTLs (lateral quads), 21 MTLs (Axial Defense Turrets, which are triples, plus several identifiable ventral turrets not shown in the ICS due to it being a dorsal view), 60 ICs (as shown in EGtW&T), 120 LTLs (60 dual turrets as shown in EGtW&T). This is for the ISD-I, the ISD-II differs in that the quad HTLs are gone, there are 20 ICs and 150-200 LTLs (in 100 turrets), and the main battery is 64 HTLs (in 8 turrets).

Crossroads Inc. · Post by **Crossroads Inc.** » 2006-01-16 08:49pm

Vanas wrote:
Crossroads Inc. wrote: The ISD-II does have 64 guns, but I maintain they are lower powerd Turbo lasers specialized in taking on many Many smaller ships, while the ISD-I is specficlly designed to take on Capital and equal sized Warships.
Didn't see this, but here we go.

First, the 'class' of turbolaser is purely for the Warlords HW2 mod.
Second,I stated that the the ISD-II's heavy guns are smaller than those of the ISD-I. Also the -II has less sheilding than the -I, (At Mon Calimari, 2 MC90 escorts and a ISD were able to pretty much destroy 2 ISDs and an Allegiance in a single salvo, apparently), so maybe that's where the power comes from? 'Screw the heavy shields, we'll just make sure that the other guy can't fire back' kinda logic.

Ok, so overlook my comment of 'class' of Turbolasers. The point remains that the Big guns of the ISD-I seem much more powerful then those of the ISD-II.

For one, the bores of the cannons themselves are much smaller and thinner. The big turrets of the ISD-I are huge honkers, like WW2 Battleships. Those on the ISD-II are thin, slender, long barrels that simply don't seem able to deliver as much punch as their predecessors...

I hadn't heared that the ISD-II has fewer shields then then Mk-I, but as you mentioned, it would make sense in relation to how they fared against the heavily shielded MonCal ships.

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » 2006-01-17 12:27pm

120 LTLs (60 dual turrets as shown in EGtW&T

Yeah I forgot there are two barrels in a LTL turret, your breakdown is what I'm saying, I'm guessing the quads and axials are heavier weapons than the smaller turrets.
Something I've always wondered, ships like the ISD have heavy armour in most places, except their engines. If you just popped a few HTL shots down the engines, would the output disrupt them, or (if there's no shields) would they just go straight to the reactor, which could be a problem...
Presumably theres something to stop this occurring, but I don't know what.

Post by **Coyote** » 2006-01-17 02:59pm

In regards to the Doomgiver, I always figured it was larger than an ISD. A lot of comments are made about its size, including the Rogue Squadron pilot who comments "that's one whaleadon of a ship you've got there!" Coming from a bunch of guys who've taken on SSDs I doubt they'd make such an observation about something the size of a Interdictor cruiser.

Unless extreme sarcasm is an option.

But apparantly, the Doomgiver was large enough to present a credible threat to the base at Yavin, and carried anough TIE fighters to keep the Rogues occupied and support a ground attack.

I always figured that the Doomgiver should be somewhere between an ISD (1600m) in length and an Allegiance (2200m)-- I guess around 1800m length. Big enough to be a stand-alone threat but not some overwhelming force.

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2006-01-17 03:27pm

Coyote wrote:I always figured that the Doomgiver should be somewhere between an ISD (1600m) in length and an Allegiance (2200m)-- I guess around 1800m length. Big enough to be a stand-alone threat but not some overwhelming force.

Cutscenes make it just much smaller though. Scaling it comes from the "attack pods". Each one held a few crouched AT-STs, four IIRC, but no AT-ATs. This gives a pretty good indicator of the ship's size since it only has a few of these pods, about two dozen or so in total. Low end scaling would make the ship almost precisely 450 m, and high end barely 600.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2006-01-17 05:30pm

nightmare wrote:
Coyote wrote:I always figured that the Doomgiver should be somewhere between an ISD (1600m) in length and an Allegiance (2200m)-- I guess around 1800m length. Big enough to be a stand-alone threat but not some overwhelming force.
Cutscenes make it just much smaller though. Scaling it comes from the "attack pods". Each one held a few crouched AT-STs, four IIRC, but no AT-ATs. This gives a pretty good indicator of the ship's size since it only has a few of these pods, about two dozen or so in total. Low end scaling would make the ship almost precisely 450 m, and high end barely 600.

Does anyone have a cutscene pic of the ship's pods? I seem to recall that they looked rather different than the ones Kyle encounters on foot. Perhaps each of the larger capsules held several of the landing ships.

Perseid · Post by **Perseid** » 2006-01-17 06:31pm

Noble Ire wrote:
nightmare wrote:
Coyote wrote:
I always figured that the Doomgiver should be somewhere between an ISD (1600m) in length and an Allegiance (2200m)-- I guess around 1800m length. Big enough to be a stand-alone threat but not some overwhelming force.

Cutscenes make it just much smaller though. Scaling it comes from the "attack pods". Each one held a few crouched AT-STs, four IIRC, but no AT-ATs. This gives a pretty good indicator of the ship's size since it only has a few of these pods, about two dozen or so in total. Low end scaling would make the ship almost precisely 450 m, and high end barely 600.

Does anyone have a cutscene pic of the ship's pods? I seem to recall that they looked rather different than the ones Kyle encounters on foot. Perhaps each of the larger capsules held several of the landing ships.

concept art for the Doomgiver

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2006-01-17 07:04pm

Well, using that, she's only 350 meters long (by my reckoning.) However, a concept sketch may not be entirely valid for such a comparison.

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2006-01-17 08:40pm

It doesn't have a lot in common with the ship model for one thing.

Perseid · Post by **Perseid** » 2006-01-17 09:05pm

Noble Ire wrote:Well, using that, she's only 350 meters long (by my reckoning.) However, a concept sketch may not be entirely valid for such a comparison.

Thats what I got after googling it, unless someone has a screen cap of the doomgiver.

Post by **Coyote** » 2006-01-17 10:16pm

I've seen that concept drawing, and I must say it bears only superficial resemblance to the ship in the game, IMO. The hull shape is not the standard "narrow-point-forward" Imperial arrowhead but backwards, as evinced by the engines and bridge. The game ship was definitely "narrow-forward", although the basic hull shape with the forked prow was retained. This vessel looks like it is going in reverse.

Plus, at 350-600 meters, it won't be very impressive to Katarn and Rogue Squadron, and carry the amount of TIEs shown.

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2006-01-18 01:35am

The ship in that concept sketch is certainly not the Doomgiver seen in Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast. For one thing, its bow and stern are in opposite directions! That ship's engines are facing the opposite direction from the one we see in Outcast. There are also far fewer pods, and the pods look larger in relation to the rest of the ship than the one in the cinematics.

From the spacious and splayed layout of the hangar bays and tram transit system, I got the impression that it's larger than an ISD, though I'm not sure if it's sufficient to prove this. It's certainly bigger than 400m, though.

There's also the verbal allusions to the ship's size.. Kyle says "they use a tram system to get around.. this must be one biiiig ship," and as has been pointed out by Coyote, Rogue Leader (Wedge? Wes?) says "That's one whaladon of a ship you've hooked yourself, Kyle." This is Rogue Squadron talking!

I'm currently at college. As soon as I get home I'm going to snap a screenshot of each different camera shot of the Doomgiver.. some of which include shots of known starfighters (X-Wings, Y-Wings and TIE/Lns).

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » 2006-01-18 12:54pm

If I remember correctly it was rather easily defeated though (been a bit since a played) didn't Katarn disable the ludicrous shield generator, then a few strafing runs using lasers killed it?
Completely different side note, I always liked force pulling the weapons off the imps instead of killing them, so I'd have dozens of stormies, pilots and officers running round wherever I went

Doctor Doom · Post by **Doctor Doom** » 2006-01-18 03:10pm

Doomgiver

Read the rule regarding inlining pictures that are not within AMP ~GR

Post by **Coyote** » 2006-01-18 03:37pm

Much more like it. That semi-circle section at the end is not the bridge... that little narrow notch, located where a normal ISD bridge would be, is the bridge. Kyle Katarn crawled around on that part as it was docked at the Cairn asteroid facility before getting into the control room; from that vantage point he saw Luke & Desann battle it out...

That's easily 1800m, just at a shoot-from-the-hip estimate.

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2006-01-18 03:56pm

Trouble is, we also have a closeup of the ship in which it isn't nearly as large as it seems to be there.

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » 2006-01-30 04:25pm

Did anyone else think it was completely ridiculous that Katarn got onto the deserted bridge, and then the ship launches, still with no one on the bridge? Who's flying the damn thing?

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2006-01-30 08:04pm

Lazarus wrote:Did anyone else think it was completely ridiculous that Katarn got onto the deserted bridge, and then the ship launches, still with no one on the bridge? Who's flying the damn thing?

*shrug* Maybe it's more of an Admiral's bridge. More of an obversation deck rather than a C&C.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2006-01-30 09:40pm

Knife wrote:
Lazarus wrote:Did anyone else think it was completely ridiculous that Katarn got onto the deserted bridge, and then the ship launches, still with no one on the bridge? Who's flying the damn thing?
*shrug* Maybe it's more of an Admiral's bridge. More of an obversation deck rather than a C&C.

Or perhaps the ship was commanded from a secondary bridge at take off, with the intent to fill the main section only after launch, perhaps to expediate its activation. After all, a large number of troopers flood the area immediately after the ship goes into hyperspace; perhaps the bridge's guard escorting the command officers in.

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2006-01-31 01:28am

I assumed that it was a communications center rather than a command bridge, because the name of that level (the portion of the ship you're in) is doom_comm.

IIRC it isn't as large as the bridge of an Executor or Imperator ship either. I'd expect the primary bridge on the Doomgiver to have the same dimensions as the standardized Star Destroyer bridges.

Post by **Coyote** » 2006-01-31 11:19am

"Comm" could be communications... or command. But the bridge (or comm station) was two-tiered and lengthwise rather than widthwise oriented...

There is a great deal of inconsistency from the Doomgiver visuals and official art/explanations also seem confusing.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2006-01-31 11:42am

I figured that it was deserted on purpose should Katarn evade capture (after all it was the only unlocked door into the Doomgiver.

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2006-01-31 11:46am

Oops, forgot to mention that in that same level (or section of the ship), Kyle makes creative use of the Doomgiver sensor array, turning it into a giant communications transmitter, which he uses to talk to Rogue Squadron.
I thought that was a very nice touch in the game.. using a hyperwave sensor array for makeshift communications.
I just loaded up Outcast and took a look at the "bridge". It's tiny.. half the linear dimensions of a Star Destroyer bridge, at the very most.

It is possible, of course, that the Doomgiver left in a hurry. For all his bluster, Desann was trying to escape Luke Skywalker, hence the ship's hasty departure (it's possible that it could be controlled from another secondary bridge). I still don't think that thing is a bridge at all, though.

Post by **Coyote** » 2006-01-31 01:28pm

Given the vulnerabiluty of the bridge structure, it could just be a 'cruise' bridge, whereas the bridge for carrying out combat and other dangerous maneuvers was deeper inside an armored section. It was a purpose-built assault ship, and expected to get in close to planets and planetary defenses.