Ramblings: Morality and the Force, Evilness and the Darkside

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2006-01-17 05:00pm

FTeik wrote:What i'd like to know is, what makes a Sith a Sith aside from being a powerhungry, megalomaniac Force-user? Can somebody be a Sith without being able to use the Force?

Actually it's been noted, like the Jedi they are an order. They have creeds, rules and such not.

Just being a Dark side Force user does not mean you are a Sith.

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2006-01-17 05:22pm

An order of two men at best.

And the moment the Master decides to throw out a rule he doesn't like ...

Who wants to slap him on the hand?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2006-01-17 05:39pm

FTeik wrote:An order of two men at best.

And the moment the Master decides to throw out a rule he doesn't like ...

Who wants to slap him on the hand?

Actually Bane alter that so there are only two, but it is noted by Palpatine that there is a Sith Order, and he acknowledges it's teachings, in fact he goes into detail of some of the teachings in Dark Lord.

Thus while only two past Darth Bane, they are not just random dark side force users.

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2006-01-17 06:13pm

My point is, that nobody and nothing can prevent Palpatine or whoever is the ruling Sith-Master to change the nature or rules of the order, if he so pleases.

Suppose i am a Sith-Apprentice, who has just killed his master. Looking through his records i find his notes on "How to run the Sith-Order and take over the galaxy." I look through those rules and think "well, that might work, so i'll keep it" or "stupid idea, forget about it, i change that rule".

So what makes a Sith a Sith?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2006-01-17 06:48pm

FTeik wrote:My point is, that nobody and nothing can prevent Palpatine or whoever is the ruling Sith-Master to change the nature or rules of the order, if he so pleases.

Suppose i am a Sith-Apprentice, who has just killed his master. Looking through his records i find his notes on "How to run the Sith-Order and take over the galaxy." I look through those rules and think "well, that might work, so i'll keep it" or "stupid idea, forget about it, i change that rule".

So what makes a Sith a Sith?

And my point is that just because you're a dark sider, does not make you a Sith. And go ahead, make hundreds of Sith Apprentices...and watch chaose run rampant like no tomorrow as you have a bunch of blood thristy power hungry monsters. The point of the rule of two was because Bane figured that a bunch of these bastards is pointless, they'll kill themselves and spare the Jedi the trouble.

Palpatine himself notes that there is a specific reason for the rule of two and why he kept it. He made other people Dark Side force users, but there was only two Sith. The order precepts are somewhat undefined but the statement of the rule of two is a rather new one.

There is apparently an intiation ritual as well, that being the whole bit of Darth and a name you hold, as well as afew other rules he never cared to mention. But he makes it quite clear, just because you can swing a lightsaber, and use the Dark Side it does not make you a Sith anything.

Robo Jesus · Post by **Robo Jesus** » 2006-01-18 01:33am

What i'd like to know is, what makes a Sith a Sith aside from being a powerhungry, megalomaniac Force-user? Can somebody be a Sith without being able to use the Force?

If we were to go with this train of thought, a good amount of people from Napolian to Al Capon to your Dentist could be considered Sith.

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2006-01-18 03:59am

Robo Jesus wrote:
What i'd like to know is, what makes a Sith a Sith aside from being a powerhungry, megalomaniac Force-user? Can somebody be a Sith without being able to use the Force?
If we were to go with this train of thought, a good amount of people from Napolian to Al Capon to your Dentist could be considered Sith.

Correct. So what makes a Sith different from Napoleon, Hitler ect. (aside from the Force)?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2006-01-18 07:34am

FTeik wrote:
Robo Jesus wrote:
What i'd like to know is, what makes a Sith a Sith aside from being a powerhungry, megalomaniac Force-user? Can somebody be a Sith without being able to use the Force?
If we were to go with this train of thought, a good amount of people from Napolian to Al Capon to your Dentist could be considered Sith.
Correct. So what makes a Sith different from Napoleon, Hitler ect. (aside from the Force)?

A creed and laws that they obey that regular Dark Side users do not. Palpatine himself expresses this NUMEROUS times. Both Vader and Palpatine call it an order. The only problem they have not laid out the creed, or many of the rules.

If you aren't going to read Dark Lord but go "Well, what difference does it make?" the whole bit in RoTS says loads more, then anything the EU has done. Why wasn't Joruus given a Sith Name, why not any of the Dark Jedi in the entire post RoTJ given a Sith name?

The Sith that obey a set rule, precepts of the reason for Master and Apprentice, consistently obey this rule(Palpatine notes that even if they found Skywalker's child alive, he would not become the first in a Line of Sith users, in fact the thought repeled Palpatine unless to replace Vader, and Vader's thoughts along those lines were to dethrone Palpatine with him/her). They note NAMING ceremony for new Sith Lords. They call themselves A SITH ORDER and Palpatine constantly brings up that is not the way of the Sith, noting certan rules. Just like the Jedi do not call themselve FORCE USERS.

So stop fucking dancing around like a chimp and show us that it's just a stupid name with no reason other the Lucas feeling bit spritely.

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2006-01-18 04:27pm

It is not my intention to show, that Sith is just a fucking name. I want to know, what defines being a Sith.

We agree, that the Sith are a kind of dark siders, who follows a certain set of rules. You argue, that following those rules makes a Sith a Sith. I argue, that the Sith follow those rules, because they help them to reach their goals and to survive as an order. Means to an end, not the end itself.

Which brings us to their creed. According to TPM and a number of other sources the Sith believe, that power unused is power wasted and according to LoE being a Sith means to be ready and willing to to anything to reach your goal. Because that is something a non-Force-user can believe, too and a non-Force-user can have the same attittude (see my question above, if you can be a Sith without being able to use the Force).

My basic question is now, if there is something else. The noble cause. The higher purpose. What are the Sith going to do with the universe, once it belongs to them? Because otherwise, once you take away all that mystical mambo-jambo of the Force and the DarkSide you're back at power-hungry megalomaniacs.

I hope i now managed to make myself clear.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2006-01-18 05:11pm

FTeik wrote:It is not my intention to show, that Sith is just a fucking name. I want to know, what defines being a Sith.

We agree, that the Sith are a kind of dark siders, who follows a certain set of rules. You argue, that following those rules makes a Sith a Sith. I argue, that the Sith follow those rules, because they help them to reach their goals and to survive as an order. Means to an end, not the end itself.

Which brings us to their creed. According to TPM and a number of other sources the Sith believe, that power unused is power wasted and according to LoE being a Sith means to be ready and willing to to anything to reach your goal. Because that is something a non-Force-user can believe, too and a non-Force-user can have the same attittude (see my question above, if you can be a Sith without being able to use the Force).

My basic question is now, if there is something else. The noble cause. The higher purpose. What are the Sith going to do with the universe, once it belongs to them? Because otherwise, once you take away all that mystical mambo-jambo of the Force and the DarkSide you're back at power-hungry megalomaniacs.

I hope i now managed to make myself clear.

To my understanding they have some creed about issue with the code of two as well an underline belief of that the master and apprentice relationship is one of power and one to covet it. Palpatine barely goes into much more then that, and Vader hints there is something more to the naming as well certain idealogies the Sith follow.

A large part of who they are is to literally first and foremost destroy the Jedi Order, something Palpatine makes clear constantly to Vader. Not exterminate all Jedi, but to destroy their order. The are mainly about revenge against the Jedi first and foremost, the rulership of the galaxy is secondary.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2006-01-19 03:57am

can a non-Force user become a Sith Lord? No as being a Dark Side user is ensential to that role
can a non-Force be Sith (as in servant/minion to the Sith Lord)? Yes.

You find that at least in KOTOR series (and probanly other Sith related stories as well) people who serve the Sith in a major role (e.g. admirals, generals, governors.. and so on) share the belives of their masters.